| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago 22:18 - Feb 3 with 6804 views | nodge_blue |
We have only had 3 managers that have taken the club forward.
They are Lyall, Burley and Royle.
Thats a pretty damning statement. Maybe open to slight debate but not much. The rest have managed us into a general decline and probably left us weaker than when they started the job.
We've only had two promotions in those 40 years as well.
How very, very sad. We deserve to be angry at the state of this club.
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| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 14:55 - Feb 4 with 925 views | Herbivore |
| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 14:38 - Feb 4 by MattinLondon |
That’s how I remember it. He didn’t want to add, maybe that’s because if he did he would be more accountable? Did he bottle it? |
I think that January is being misrepresented somewhat. ME didn't offer Mick a war chest that he then turned down. Some money was available but we're not talking millions, and Mick's point was that with the budget available he was going to struggle to bring in anyone that would be guaranteed to improve us and on that basis he didn't want to spend for the sake of it and risk upsetting the apple cart. Had ME come to him and said "here's £10m, get us out of this league" I imagine things would have looked quite different in that window. |  |
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| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 15:04 - Feb 4 with 917 views | GeoffSentence |
| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 10:05 - Feb 4 by IPS_wich |
I'd rank our Managers since Robson thus:
- Burley 1995-2001
- Lyall
- McCarthy 2012-2016
- Ferguson
- Royle
- Duncan (who I honestly thought would be the worst manager I would ever see managing us)
- Magilton
- McCarthy 2016-18
- Burley 2001-2002 (only this high due to Inter Milan and that run post-Christmas in the Prem)
- Keane (and it shows what dross is to come that he gets this high)
- McGiven
- Jewell
- Hurst
- Lambert
Hurst may have killed our club, but Lambert has proceeded to close the lid on the coffin, pour the petrol on it, set it on fire and is now piSSing on the ashes. |
Feguson > McCarthy
Kept us in the top flght for several seasons despite the financial straits he was under, got us into the playoffs in his season in div 2, in 5th so a place higher than Mick's season mirabilis, and they have the saem win rate though Fergy played most games at a higher level. |  |
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| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 15:26 - Feb 4 with 902 views | Radlett_blue |
| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 15:04 - Feb 4 by GeoffSentence |
Feguson > McCarthy
Kept us in the top flght for several seasons despite the financial straits he was under, got us into the playoffs in his season in div 2, in 5th so a place higher than Mick's season mirabilis, and they have the saem win rate though Fergy played most games at a higher level. |
Really?
I thought Ferguson was a good #2 who was never cut out for management. SBR was a hands on coach so I'm not sure how much influence Ferguson had.
He inherited an excellent team, but one which was ageing & breaking up, which was reflected in our decline from 2nd in SBR's last season to 9th, 12th, 17th & finally 20th. |  |
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| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 16:47 - Feb 4 with 873 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 14:48 - Feb 4 by Herbivore |
Derby then went two and three nil behind, which is when the easing off happened. We were pushing hard for an equaliser prior to that. You misremembered it saying they lost to a late goal to make it sound like we only got in right at the death, when in reality we never dropped out of the top 6 at all that day.
You have made stuff up, you made up that we mostly finished bottom half under Mick when we finished top half on four occasions and bottom half on two occasions, one of which was the season he kept us up when we had been well adrift at the bottom. Our form under Mick that season was also comfortably top half. And in the seasons we finished 9th and 7th we were only 4 and 5 points away from the top 6, so it's not like we were a million miles away from contending.
I'm really not sure your argument has much basis here. |
The third goal was in the 85th minute, a pen. So their defeat was confirmed by a late goal. At only 2-0 a draw was still achievable, and as I said they also missed a pen.
The fact remains we got in on the last day due to someone else losing (a game they were expected to win and only needed a draw). We limped over the line.
Your argument rests on semantics and black and white stats. Yes we were a long way from contending when we finished 9th and 7th. On neither of those occasions was anyone thinking we'd make the play offs. As I said, the 7th place finish was only because of an amazing late run of form. Probably because we were so relaxed having nothing to play for. Saying we finished 7th makes it look like we only just missed out. We didn't. Even with an amazing run we were never going to make it.
I stand by my argument that all we did under Mick was survive and then tread water. We were never serious promotion contenders (particularly when you think the idea of promotion is that you're too good for the division you're in and so need to play against better teams). And the football was dreadful anti-football which was causing the fan base to dwindle every year.
That's not to say I'm dismissing Mick - he did a great job turning us around when he first came in and made the best of what we had. To say he moved the club forward in any way is a massive stretch IMO. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 17:01 - Feb 4 with 865 views | nodge_blue |
| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 16:47 - Feb 4 by The_Flashing_Smile |
The third goal was in the 85th minute, a pen. So their defeat was confirmed by a late goal. At only 2-0 a draw was still achievable, and as I said they also missed a pen.
The fact remains we got in on the last day due to someone else losing (a game they were expected to win and only needed a draw). We limped over the line.
Your argument rests on semantics and black and white stats. Yes we were a long way from contending when we finished 9th and 7th. On neither of those occasions was anyone thinking we'd make the play offs. As I said, the 7th place finish was only because of an amazing late run of form. Probably because we were so relaxed having nothing to play for. Saying we finished 7th makes it look like we only just missed out. We didn't. Even with an amazing run we were never going to make it.
I stand by my argument that all we did under Mick was survive and then tread water. We were never serious promotion contenders (particularly when you think the idea of promotion is that you're too good for the division you're in and so need to play against better teams). And the football was dreadful anti-football which was causing the fan base to dwindle every year.
That's not to say I'm dismissing Mick - he did a great job turning us around when he first came in and made the best of what we had. To say he moved the club forward in any way is a massive stretch IMO. |
Mick was like our Dunkirk.
Its a spirited defence but not winning the war.
We were waiting for the D day general to emerge and all he kept giving us was Dunkirk. | |
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| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 17:38 - Feb 4 with 851 views | TieDyedIn95 |
| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 22:19 - Feb 3 by chrismakin |
Or have we overachieved and we're exactly where we are meant to be in todays modern football |
How did we over achieve under Ramsay and Robson? Two of the BEST managers if not THE best managers England has ever seen, I'd say we under achieved given our managers, teams and set up from the 60's to the early 80's.... other clubs were lucky we didn't win even more under Robson, we should have taken the title 3 times at least and would have done under 3pts for a win, as well as a couple more cups. Had England not come calling we'd have been a strong side in the 80's and 90's under Robson as well.
We're only in the third tier because a Chelsea supporting multi-millionaire tried to turn us into a get even richer, even quicker scheme and when it didn't work put us to the bottom of the toy pile. We do not belong here. |  |
| Football League First Division / Premier League
Champions (1): 1961—62 - Runners-up (2): 1980—81, 1981—82
Football League Second Division / EFL Championship
Champions (3): 1960—61, 1967—68, 1991—92 - Play-off winners (1): 1999—2000
Football League Third Division / EFL League One Champions (2): 1953—54, 1956—57 - Southern League Champions (1): 1936—37
FA Cup Winners (1): 1977—78 - Texaco Cup Winners (1): 1972—73
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| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 17:47 - Feb 4 with 848 views | shaunmahony |
| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 11:34 - Feb 4 by The_Flashing_Smile |
You've still got Keane too high. And if you're going on win percentages then Keane and Jewell should be neck and neck, with virtually the same. The difference between them is Jewell had to take over what Keane left. |
Nicely constructed list! Interesting debate. I have a bit more time for Magilton than most; left us near the play-offs with McCauley , Walters both good players and Norris was decent. Didn't he have a season where he won the first 8 at home on the bounce? - compare that to recent home form - but away record not good. Keane killed that team (Walters vomit episode and telling MCCauley's agent to move him on as not good enough!) and wasted many of ME's millions burning Evans' fingers so much that that was it as far as splashing out on players good enough to get us promoted, and here we are! . Anyway, for me Magilton above Duncan! |  | | |
| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 17:52 - Feb 4 with 840 views | Herbivore |
| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 16:47 - Feb 4 by The_Flashing_Smile |
The third goal was in the 85th minute, a pen. So their defeat was confirmed by a late goal. At only 2-0 a draw was still achievable, and as I said they also missed a pen.
The fact remains we got in on the last day due to someone else losing (a game they were expected to win and only needed a draw). We limped over the line.
Your argument rests on semantics and black and white stats. Yes we were a long way from contending when we finished 9th and 7th. On neither of those occasions was anyone thinking we'd make the play offs. As I said, the 7th place finish was only because of an amazing late run of form. Probably because we were so relaxed having nothing to play for. Saying we finished 7th makes it look like we only just missed out. We didn't. Even with an amazing run we were never going to make it.
I stand by my argument that all we did under Mick was survive and then tread water. We were never serious promotion contenders (particularly when you think the idea of promotion is that you're too good for the division you're in and so need to play against better teams). And the football was dreadful anti-football which was causing the fan base to dwindle every year.
That's not to say I'm dismissing Mick - he did a great job turning us around when he first came in and made the best of what we had. To say he moved the club forward in any way is a massive stretch IMO. |
There's a fair bit of mental gymnastics going on there. Let's agree to disagree on this one. [Post edited 4 Feb 2021 17:53]
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| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 20:52 - Feb 4 with 791 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 17:52 - Feb 4 by Herbivore |
There's a fair bit of mental gymnastics going on there. Let's agree to disagree on this one. [Post edited 4 Feb 2021 17:53]
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Nice soundbite rather than addressing the points made.
Most sensible Town fans know we weren't a promotion contender under Mick. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 21:39 - Feb 4 with 780 views | Tangledupin_Blue |
| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 22:29 - Feb 3 by pointofblue |
I’d argue Jim took us forward too - we were 15th when Royle left; Jim got us into the top half by the time he left. |
Mick took us forward, too. |  |
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| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 21:54 - Feb 4 with 771 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 21:39 - Feb 4 by Tangledupin_Blue |
Mick took us forward, too. |
Really? What great strides did we make under Mick? | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 22:05 - Feb 4 with 767 views | Herbivore |
| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 20:52 - Feb 4 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Nice soundbite rather than addressing the points made.
Most sensible Town fans know we weren't a promotion contender under Mick. |
I've addressed your points and you just keep repeating yourself and being quite dishonest in how you represent things. I said we should agree to disagree but it seems you can't even manage that. | |
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| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 23:05 - Feb 4 with 753 views | Herbivore |
| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 21:54 - Feb 4 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Really? What great strides did we make under Mick? |
How many times do you need this answered exactly? You earlier tried to claim we mostly finished bottom half under Mick, which is just outright wrong, so I'm not sure you can be trusted to judge his time here really given you seem to be quite unfamiliar with his body of work at Town. | |
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| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 08:15 - Feb 5 with 698 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 22:05 - Feb 4 by Herbivore |
I've addressed your points and you just keep repeating yourself and being quite dishonest in how you represent things. I said we should agree to disagree but it seems you can't even manage that. |
No you said disagree and I said fairy nuff, but then you decided to keep going. If you're going to keep going then I will respond. I have not been dishonest in how I've represented anything.
You think we were a promotion contender under Mick more often than not. I say we were never really one, for all the points I've outlined (which are more nuanced than just looking at the league position). We can agree to disagree on that. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 08:18 - Feb 5 with 690 views | Herbivore |
| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 08:15 - Feb 5 by The_Flashing_Smile |
No you said disagree and I said fairy nuff, but then you decided to keep going. If you're going to keep going then I will respond. I have not been dishonest in how I've represented anything.
You think we were a promotion contender under Mick more often than not. I say we were never really one, for all the points I've outlined (which are more nuanced than just looking at the league position). We can agree to disagree on that. |
So saying we mostly finished bottom half under Mick wasn't dishonest? Agree to disagree on that. | |
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| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 08:19 - Feb 5 with 685 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 23:05 - Feb 4 by Herbivore |
How many times do you need this answered exactly? You earlier tried to claim we mostly finished bottom half under Mick, which is just outright wrong, so I'm not sure you can be trusted to judge his time here really given you seem to be quite unfamiliar with his body of work at Town. |
You love jumping on that because that's all you have. I admitted that was an error and adjusted it to "bottom of the top half"... but as you know it's neither here nor there and you're using it to deflect from the real point that we were never serious promotion contenders under Mick. Being 12th, as I said earlier, is technically top half. Well done, have a biscuit. It means feck all though, as well you know. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 08:21 - Feb 5 with 680 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 08:18 - Feb 5 by Herbivore |
So saying we mostly finished bottom half under Mick wasn't dishonest? Agree to disagree on that. |
No it wasn't dishonest, it was an error.
Why are you still going on this? What difference does it make to the overall point? | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 08:22 - Feb 5 with 678 views | Herbivore |
| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 08:19 - Feb 5 by The_Flashing_Smile |
You love jumping on that because that's all you have. I admitted that was an error and adjusted it to "bottom of the top half"... but as you know it's neither here nor there and you're using it to deflect from the real point that we were never serious promotion contenders under Mick. Being 12th, as I said earlier, is technically top half. Well done, have a biscuit. It means feck all though, as well you know. |
We also finished 6th, 9th and 7th, not just 12th. We finished bottom half in only one of Mick's full seasons here, the other bottom half finish we achieved comfortably top half form for the period Mick was in charge. Perhaps you misremembering his time here is why you underrate his tenure? Just a thought.
What biscuit do I get? | |
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| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 08:40 - Feb 5 with 667 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 08:22 - Feb 5 by Herbivore |
We also finished 6th, 9th and 7th, not just 12th. We finished bottom half in only one of Mick's full seasons here, the other bottom half finish we achieved comfortably top half form for the period Mick was in charge. Perhaps you misremembering his time here is why you underrate his tenure? Just a thought.
What biscuit do I get? |
You just accused me of repeating myself and here you are doing it yourself.
You are being disingenuous by using league placings out of context. We scraped into 6th once under Mick, I'll give him that. As I said earlier, the 7th and 9th placings look quite good on paper - but the reality was we were a long way from making the playoffs. The 7th place was only achieved by an incredible run of 1 loss in our last 8 games.
I'll leave others to decide if we were serious promotion contenders under Mick, like you attest, or whether he did a great job keeping us up and then just kept us treading water with dull football (the actual truth).
I say all this as someone who liked Mick and appreciated what he did. But let's not sugarcoat it like it was some golden era. I had mates who gave up their season tickets because they couldn't take his anti-football anymore. If you said to them he moved the club forward they'd laugh until all their bones fell out.
Your biscuit is a soggy biscuit with Mick's jizz on it. [Post edited 5 Feb 2021 8:45]
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| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 08:47 - Feb 5 with 663 views | Herbivore |
| Since Robson left nearly 40 years ago on 08:40 - Feb 5 by The_Flashing_Smile |
You just accused me of repeating myself and here you are doing it yourself.
You are being disingenuous by using league placings out of context. We scraped into 6th once under Mick, I'll give him that. As I said earlier, the 7th and 9th placings look quite good on paper - but the reality was we were a long way from making the playoffs. The 7th place was only achieved by an incredible run of 1 loss in our last 8 games.
I'll leave others to decide if we were serious promotion contenders under Mick, like you attest, or whether he did a great job keeping us up and then just kept us treading water with dull football (the actual truth).
I say all this as someone who liked Mick and appreciated what he did. But let's not sugarcoat it like it was some golden era. I had mates who gave up their season tickets because they couldn't take his anti-football anymore. If you said to them he moved the club forward they'd laugh until all their bones fell out.
Your biscuit is a soggy biscuit with Mick's jizz on it. [Post edited 5 Feb 2021 8:45]
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You are the one who keeps using the term "serious promotion contenders", not me. You said us finishing 6th was an outlier, I pointed out that we'd also finished 7th and 9th so it wasn't really that much of an outlier. Ironically the outlier under Mick was the full season under him where we finished bottom half, and yet you claimed that this was the norm under Mick when it wasn't. You could just admit you got the facts wrong and reappraise things in that light rather than taking it out on me.
My argument all along has been that Mick took us forward, which he did. Took over rock bottom of the Championship with a squad in disarray and after 3 top 10 finishes in 4 years he left the club 12th with a better and more sustainable sqaud than he inherited. That's the definition of taking us forward. You can try to spin and obfuscate as much as you like but you've not put forward a coherent argument here and have relied on mistruths to try and support your case. So please, don't purport to speak of the actual truth in your posts when you've offered nothing but lies and spin. [Post edited 5 Feb 2021 8:48]
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