| The public gets what the public wants 10:35 - Apr 29 with 6150 views | GlasgowBlue |
Have we reached peak Trump in this country with an electorate not giving a flying fcuk about the morals of it's leader? |  |
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| The public gets what the public wants on 08:49 - Apr 30 with 1544 views | WD19 |
Its school playground stuff.
The danger is that Starmer increasingly looks like the swotty kid trying to get Boris into trouble with the teacher. Instinctively Brits don't like that sort of thing.
Boris is a dead man walking because key players in his party will knife him at the moment of their choosing. Until then its all just noise. |  | | |
| The public gets what the public wants on 08:56 - Apr 30 with 1524 views | HARRY10 |
| The public gets what the public wants on 14:23 - Apr 29 by Herbivore |
I'm not optimistic either. The jilted Corbynites are more concerned with getting their pound of flesh out of Keir Starmer than they are with getting the Tories out of power.
The UK is not necessarily a right wing country, not massively, but we end up with right wing governments most of the time because the right leaning voters all coalesce around the Tories. Meanwhile the centre and left of centre is split between Labour, the Lib Dems, the Greens, and more recently the SNP as well. Add their vote share together and it's greater than the share that the Tories get, but our antiquated voting system means we end up with the Tories in power with a huge majority when the reality is that the majority finds them loathsome for the most part. The majority just can't get its sh!t together to actually shift them out of power. |
Replacing FPO]TP with a grossly flawed and undemocratic PR system is a fairly dangerous idea to be peddling
Firstly what is trotted out is that voting in any election would be the same, with NO accounting for tactical voting.
Secondly it would inevitably have to be run on the 'slate' system, whereby local democratic control is replaced by voters being allocated an MP chosen by where they are listed in relation to the number of votes cast
What in invariably leads to is endless rounds of 'horse trading' and small extreme parties having a say way beyond their vote share. DUP tail wagging Tory dog (government0
There is also the flawed belief that all non Tory MPs would happily see the sense in sticking together to form a workable coalition. Check what happened in 2010 with the Libdems.
The real problem lies with voter disengagement. Ask the average voter why they voted for Brexit and you can be certain that nothing of what they state in reply has any relation to rational thought, or the most basic facts.
"They are all the same" they will tell you, Then when it is shown they are not (see recent events re Johnson, Hancock and Cameron etc) what is the response in regard to clearing the barrel of said rotten apples ?
Therein lies the real problem - unfortunately peddling some pie in the sky answer only serves to distract from that problem |  | | |
| The public gets what the public wants on 08:59 - Apr 30 with 1510 views | Herbivore |
| The public gets what the public wants on 08:56 - Apr 30 by HARRY10 |
Replacing FPO]TP with a grossly flawed and undemocratic PR system is a fairly dangerous idea to be peddling
Firstly what is trotted out is that voting in any election would be the same, with NO accounting for tactical voting.
Secondly it would inevitably have to be run on the 'slate' system, whereby local democratic control is replaced by voters being allocated an MP chosen by where they are listed in relation to the number of votes cast
What in invariably leads to is endless rounds of 'horse trading' and small extreme parties having a say way beyond their vote share. DUP tail wagging Tory dog (government0
There is also the flawed belief that all non Tory MPs would happily see the sense in sticking together to form a workable coalition. Check what happened in 2010 with the Libdems.
The real problem lies with voter disengagement. Ask the average voter why they voted for Brexit and you can be certain that nothing of what they state in reply has any relation to rational thought, or the most basic facts.
"They are all the same" they will tell you, Then when it is shown they are not (see recent events re Johnson, Hancock and Cameron etc) what is the response in regard to clearing the barrel of said rotten apples ?
Therein lies the real problem - unfortunately peddling some pie in the sky answer only serves to distract from that problem |
PR is undemocratic? That's a hot take. I'd have thought every vote actually counting is considerably more democratic than half the votes counting for absolutely nothing as is currently the case. |  |
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| The public gets what the public wants on 09:05 - Apr 30 with 1477 views | RadioOrwell |
| The public gets what the public wants on 08:56 - Apr 30 by HARRY10 |
Replacing FPO]TP with a grossly flawed and undemocratic PR system is a fairly dangerous idea to be peddling
Firstly what is trotted out is that voting in any election would be the same, with NO accounting for tactical voting.
Secondly it would inevitably have to be run on the 'slate' system, whereby local democratic control is replaced by voters being allocated an MP chosen by where they are listed in relation to the number of votes cast
What in invariably leads to is endless rounds of 'horse trading' and small extreme parties having a say way beyond their vote share. DUP tail wagging Tory dog (government0
There is also the flawed belief that all non Tory MPs would happily see the sense in sticking together to form a workable coalition. Check what happened in 2010 with the Libdems.
The real problem lies with voter disengagement. Ask the average voter why they voted for Brexit and you can be certain that nothing of what they state in reply has any relation to rational thought, or the most basic facts.
"They are all the same" they will tell you, Then when it is shown they are not (see recent events re Johnson, Hancock and Cameron etc) what is the response in regard to clearing the barrel of said rotten apples ?
Therein lies the real problem - unfortunately peddling some pie in the sky answer only serves to distract from that problem |
Yeah. Look at Germany, Ireland, Austria, Belgium, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Greece, Iceland, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Monaco, Montenegro, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Republic of Moldova, Romania, San Marino, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland with their silly Proportional Representation.
Chaos over there right ? |  | | |
| The public gets what the public wants on 09:07 - Apr 30 with 1475 views | Clapham_Junction |
| The public gets what the public wants on 08:56 - Apr 30 by HARRY10 |
Replacing FPO]TP with a grossly flawed and undemocratic PR system is a fairly dangerous idea to be peddling
Firstly what is trotted out is that voting in any election would be the same, with NO accounting for tactical voting.
Secondly it would inevitably have to be run on the 'slate' system, whereby local democratic control is replaced by voters being allocated an MP chosen by where they are listed in relation to the number of votes cast
What in invariably leads to is endless rounds of 'horse trading' and small extreme parties having a say way beyond their vote share. DUP tail wagging Tory dog (government0
There is also the flawed belief that all non Tory MPs would happily see the sense in sticking together to form a workable coalition. Check what happened in 2010 with the Libdems.
The real problem lies with voter disengagement. Ask the average voter why they voted for Brexit and you can be certain that nothing of what they state in reply has any relation to rational thought, or the most basic facts.
"They are all the same" they will tell you, Then when it is shown they are not (see recent events re Johnson, Hancock and Cameron etc) what is the response in regard to clearing the barrel of said rotten apples ?
Therein lies the real problem - unfortunately peddling some pie in the sky answer only serves to distract from that problem |
You've not heard of open list proportional representation then? |  | | |
| The public gets what the public wants on 09:09 - Apr 30 with 1468 views | Darth_Koont |
| The public gets what the public wants on 08:59 - Apr 30 by Herbivore |
PR is undemocratic? That's a hot take. I'd have thought every vote actually counting is considerably more democratic than half the votes counting for absolutely nothing as is currently the case. |
Agreed. FPTP explains a significant part of the democratic deficit in the UK. The disenfranchisement and disillusionment is exacerbated by those votes that don’t count. And it’s also a two-party system that can be gamed by the rich and powerful (media and cash for favours) as well as the breed of politician who looks for that power, influence and money. |  |
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| The public gets what the public wants on 09:11 - Apr 30 with 1452 views | mr_bean |
| The public gets what the public wants on 08:27 - Apr 30 by GlasgowBlue |
I thought that would be “the one” but the latest poll shows that people don’t give a toss. He’s telling it like it is. Get the pubs open. |
....unless there's a recording lurking around, which captures him saying it. I think that will focus minds. People will actually get to hear him saying something that shows that he doesn't care about the lives of the very people that he is supposed to serve. | | | |
| The public gets what the public wants on 09:15 - Apr 30 with 1437 views | DanTheMan |
| The public gets what the public wants on 08:56 - Apr 30 by HARRY10 |
Replacing FPO]TP with a grossly flawed and undemocratic PR system is a fairly dangerous idea to be peddling
Firstly what is trotted out is that voting in any election would be the same, with NO accounting for tactical voting.
Secondly it would inevitably have to be run on the 'slate' system, whereby local democratic control is replaced by voters being allocated an MP chosen by where they are listed in relation to the number of votes cast
What in invariably leads to is endless rounds of 'horse trading' and small extreme parties having a say way beyond their vote share. DUP tail wagging Tory dog (government0
There is also the flawed belief that all non Tory MPs would happily see the sense in sticking together to form a workable coalition. Check what happened in 2010 with the Libdems.
The real problem lies with voter disengagement. Ask the average voter why they voted for Brexit and you can be certain that nothing of what they state in reply has any relation to rational thought, or the most basic facts.
"They are all the same" they will tell you, Then when it is shown they are not (see recent events re Johnson, Hancock and Cameron etc) what is the response in regard to clearing the barrel of said rotten apples ?
Therein lies the real problem - unfortunately peddling some pie in the sky answer only serves to distract from that problem |
"DUP tail wagging Tory dog "
I love these sorts of examples people give, where something happens under the status quo but it used as a criticism of an alternative. |  |
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| The public gets what the public wants on 09:19 - Apr 30 with 1422 views | RadioOrwell |
| The public gets what the public wants on 09:11 - Apr 30 by mr_bean |
....unless there's a recording lurking around, which captures him saying it. I think that will focus minds. People will actually get to hear him saying something that shows that he doesn't care about the lives of the very people that he is supposed to serve. |
I think that wallpaper isn't very interesting or important but Like Al Capone getting jailed for Tax Fraud rather than murder, it might be the trivial thing that trips him up. | | | |
| The public gets what the public wants on 09:23 - Apr 30 with 1407 views | Darth_Koont |
| The public gets what the public wants on 09:15 - Apr 30 by DanTheMan |
"DUP tail wagging Tory dog "
I love these sorts of examples people give, where something happens under the status quo but it used as a criticism of an alternative. |
Good point. Also even if coalitions haven’t been too common overall, our elections are almost always decided by marginals and the campaigning there. Which seems to have pushed Labour right and the Tories even further right.
In countries with PR, the coalitions and partnerships are generally understood beforehand. Meaning that people can vote for the party they want and with a fair idea of what that means. And the more votes to one of the parties in the coalition the more it leans in that direction once in power. | |
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| The public gets what the public wants on 09:31 - Apr 30 with 1392 views | Pinewoodblue |
| The public gets what the public wants on 09:19 - Apr 30 by RadioOrwell |
I think that wallpaper isn't very interesting or important but Like Al Capone getting jailed for Tax Fraud rather than murder, it might be the trivial thing that trips him up. |
I just hope that, when he goes, that Gove, Hunt, or whoever , appreciate Carries tastes.
Whatever happens there won’t be an election, why should there be, we will still have a Tory PM and no better than BoJo.
Am I right in thinking if Johnson stands down Raab stands in. |  |
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| The public gets what the public wants on 09:45 - Apr 30 with 1374 views | Swansea_Blue |
| The public gets what the public wants on 13:32 - Apr 29 by Pinewoodblue |
We will know in a weeks time what the public wants, or at least those who bother to vote.
No idea as far as national assemblies go but can not see any significant swing to the left in local government or mayoral elections. If anything the attack by Starmer over who paid for what is more likely to persuade older conservative voters to go out and vote.
Policies win elections not personal attack on someone’s integrity. |
I think we'll mostly find out which tribe they want to belong to rather than what they actually want. Remember that people have shown they are happy to vote for a party that hasn't got a manifesto. Actual policy issues beyond 3 word catchphrases about sticking it to foreigners are largely ignored these days. |  |
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| The public gets what the public wants on 10:06 - Apr 30 with 1347 views | Swansea_Blue |
| The public gets what the public wants on 09:31 - Apr 30 by Pinewoodblue |
I just hope that, when he goes, that Gove, Hunt, or whoever , appreciate Carries tastes.
Whatever happens there won’t be an election, why should there be, we will still have a Tory PM and no better than BoJo.
Am I right in thinking if Johnson stands down Raab stands in. |
I'm not sure about the 'no better than BoJo' angle. Johnson is notoriously lazy, not interested in detail, a coward and dishonest (which largely comes from being a coward I think). He's weak.
Gove's a slimy barsteward - probably the most devious and slippery of the bunch. He's also dishonest like Johnson, but he is more competent. Some of the reports from people working with him describe him as invested, interested and diligent, which would be a huge improvement.
Hunt is somewhere in the middle but again, critically, more competent than Johnson. although I admit I don't know a huge amount about him other than from his controversial Health Secretary posting.
In short I think it would be incredibly hard to get worse than Johnson and the next Tory PM will be an improvement (however bad that still might be).
PS. Yes, are think you are right that Raab is ready to step into the wings. He covered when Johnson had Covid as I can remember everyone laughing about it as he wasn't really allowed to do much. He'd be a disaster. Can't see him getting a sniff at the gig full time. [Post edited 30 Apr 2021 10:08]
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| The public gets what the public wants on 10:08 - Apr 30 with 1342 views | pointofblue |
| The public gets what the public wants on 10:06 - Apr 30 by Swansea_Blue |
I'm not sure about the 'no better than BoJo' angle. Johnson is notoriously lazy, not interested in detail, a coward and dishonest (which largely comes from being a coward I think). He's weak.
Gove's a slimy barsteward - probably the most devious and slippery of the bunch. He's also dishonest like Johnson, but he is more competent. Some of the reports from people working with him describe him as invested, interested and diligent, which would be a huge improvement.
Hunt is somewhere in the middle but again, critically, more competent than Johnson. although I admit I don't know a huge amount about him other than from his controversial Health Secretary posting.
In short I think it would be incredibly hard to get worse than Johnson and the next Tory PM will be an improvement (however bad that still might be).
PS. Yes, are think you are right that Raab is ready to step into the wings. He covered when Johnson had Covid as I can remember everyone laughing about it as he wasn't really allowed to do much. He'd be a disaster. Can't see him getting a sniff at the gig full time. [Post edited 30 Apr 2021 10:08]
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Two words - Pritti Patel. Fortunately I’m not sure if she has enough support in the party. | |
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| The public gets what the public wants on 10:20 - Apr 30 with 1331 views | Pinewoodblue |
| The public gets what the public wants on 10:08 - Apr 30 by pointofblue |
Two words - Pritti Patel. Fortunately I’m not sure if she has enough support in the party. |
Deserves an award for “best tongue in cheek comment” | |
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| The public gets what the public wants on 10:25 - Apr 30 with 1313 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The public gets what the public wants on 09:31 - Apr 30 by Pinewoodblue |
I just hope that, when he goes, that Gove, Hunt, or whoever , appreciate Carries tastes.
Whatever happens there won’t be an election, why should there be, we will still have a Tory PM and no better than BoJo.
Am I right in thinking if Johnson stands down Raab stands in. |
Only until a new leader is elected. Which could be up to six weeks.
Raab stood in for about 4 weeks when Johnson was ill last year. | |
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| The public gets what the public wants on 10:31 - Apr 30 with 1293 views | HARRY10 |
| The public gets what the public wants on 09:19 - Apr 30 by RadioOrwell |
I think that wallpaper isn't very interesting or important but Like Al Capone getting jailed for Tax Fraud rather than murder, it might be the trivial thing that trips him up. |
trivial ! ! !
.... is that the level of understanding of the implications here
why do you think Johnson is flatly refusing to answer the question being put to him ?
much else is about falling foul of Parliamentary procedure
Whereas in this case, deliberately not declaring a donation falls foul of the law outside of Parliament - The Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000
Why do you think Cummings warned him off this act, with the words that his “plans to have donors secretly pay for the renovation were unethical, foolish, possibly illegal”
This is not about supposed sleaze or making offensive comments about dead bodies being piled up, which can be ridden out however much damage either might cause to popular opinion.
This smacks of corruption - the type of behaviour we might expect of a third world banana republic. Not from the UK PM.
Imagine if it came out that a Town manager had taken a back hander from a football agent to sign one of the agents players. Would that be deemed 'trivial'' ? Or a judge who had accepted the hospitality of a criminal , who was later, or before, let off a serious charge.
However I appreciate the genuine sentiment behind your post, I am just shocked that this might be the perception across the country. | | | |
| The public gets what the public wants on 10:32 - Apr 30 with 1290 views | Swansea_Blue |
| The public gets what the public wants on 10:25 - Apr 30 by GlasgowBlue |
Only until a new leader is elected. Which could be up to six weeks.
Raab stood in for about 4 weeks when Johnson was ill last year. |
And it took 3 of those weeks for him to find Downing Street!  | |
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| The public gets what the public wants on 10:36 - Apr 30 with 1287 views | Swansea_Blue |
| The public gets what the public wants on 10:08 - Apr 30 by pointofblue |
Two words - Pritti Patel. Fortunately I’m not sure if she has enough support in the party. |
*shudders* | |
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| The public gets what the public wants on 11:16 - Apr 30 with 1262 views | You_Bloo_Right |
| The public gets what the public wants on 10:31 - Apr 30 by HARRY10 |
trivial ! ! !
.... is that the level of understanding of the implications here
why do you think Johnson is flatly refusing to answer the question being put to him ?
much else is about falling foul of Parliamentary procedure
Whereas in this case, deliberately not declaring a donation falls foul of the law outside of Parliament - The Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000
Why do you think Cummings warned him off this act, with the words that his “plans to have donors secretly pay for the renovation were unethical, foolish, possibly illegal”
This is not about supposed sleaze or making offensive comments about dead bodies being piled up, which can be ridden out however much damage either might cause to popular opinion.
This smacks of corruption - the type of behaviour we might expect of a third world banana republic. Not from the UK PM.
Imagine if it came out that a Town manager had taken a back hander from a football agent to sign one of the agents players. Would that be deemed 'trivial'' ? Or a judge who had accepted the hospitality of a criminal , who was later, or before, let off a serious charge.
However I appreciate the genuine sentiment behind your post, I am just shocked that this might be the perception across the country. |
It does make Johnson look like a fare dodger. Chances his arm by seeing if he can get away without a ticket. When (if) caught buys a ticket and assumes that will be the end of it. And the fine Mr Johnson? |  |
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| The public gets what the public wants on 11:16 - Apr 30 with 1261 views | HARRY10 |
| The public gets what the public wants on 10:25 - Apr 30 by GlasgowBlue |
Only until a new leader is elected. Which could be up to six weeks.
Raab stood in for about 4 weeks when Johnson was ill last year. |
If a PM intends to resign then the usual procedure is to set a date and remain as PM until the new leader of the party is elected.
That done the outgoing PM toddles off to see Mrs Windsor to offer his or her resignation and recommends the newly elected party leader to be the PM.
Which over a cup of tea and a Duchy Original Organic biscuit or two, Mrs W gives her assent and the country has a new PM.
In the case of Johnson suddenly snuffing it, or being pushed under a bus (£350 million etc), the cabinet meets and selects an interim leader/PM to cover until a new leader is elected... then as above
(Laurence Llewellen-Bowen has ruled himself out, after seeing the 19th century opium den/brothel number 11 flat now resembles)
* not needed to be declared | | | |
| The public gets what the public wants on 14:07 - Apr 30 with 1195 views | BLUEGOLD |
It wasn’t helped by those advocating anyone but Corbyn as a vote not for labour meant a whopping Tory majority.
That led to Johnson and the most corrupt and incompetent government in living memory.
Do you know anyone like that GB? | | | |
| The public gets what the public wants on 20:44 - Apr 30 with 1121 views | HARRY10 |
| The public gets what the public wants on 09:05 - Apr 30 by RadioOrwell |
Yeah. Look at Germany, Ireland, Austria, Belgium, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Greece, Iceland, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Monaco, Montenegro, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Republic of Moldova, Romania, San Marino, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland with their silly Proportional Representation.
Chaos over there right ? |
You would do well refuting the problems of removing local accountability, rather than bleat out ill informed nonsense
Look at how long those countries take to form a government, how legislation is similarly held up and all too often power lies in the hands of a very small number of MPs
Any time I vote I expect to know the person I am voting for, not have some one foistered on me AFTER I have voted. Look at how the government of the next 5 years after 2010 was decided by a handful of Libdems - not the electorate as a whole. Thats how PR works.
Look at the stagnation in NI as an example of the implementation of PR.
And before we get another bout of GB style making up stuff, then replying to that how about refuting what I have said and supporting why you think removing local snd national accountability is a good idea.
Every vote counts is as absurd and false as Johnsons current denial. Look up how STV or actually. works. | | | |
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