| The public gets what the public wants 10:35 - Apr 29 with 6152 views | GlasgowBlue |
Have we reached peak Trump in this country with an electorate not giving a flying fcuk about the morals of it's leader? |  |
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| The public gets what the public wants on 14:34 - Apr 29 with 1262 views | marchy |
| The public gets what the public wants on 14:27 - Apr 29 by GlasgowBlue |
I don't think that lessons are being learned over Trump. As Lowhouse said earlier, people jumping on every small thing and screaming lies and sleaze will anesthetize the public to it.
It's a tactic that allowed trump to own the narrative of fake news for several years.
Find something big, make sure it will resonate with the general public and go heavy on it. |
I worry we're already past that point - he's presided over a woeful response to the pandemic, economic devastation and a catastrophic Brexit, and still the novelty of having a circus clown in charge doesn't seem to have worn thin. I quite like what I suspect Starmer's approach might be - if Johnson can be unseated over an infraction, however trivial it is, then there's three years for whoever his replacement is to prove incompetent whilst (I hope) lacking Johnson's incomprehensible "appeal", and hopefully common sense and decency could eventually prevail... |  | | |
| The public gets what the public wants on 14:40 - Apr 29 with 1250 views | Herbivore |
| The public gets what the public wants on 14:27 - Apr 29 by GlasgowBlue |
I don't think that lessons are being learned over Trump. As Lowhouse said earlier, people jumping on every small thing and screaming lies and sleaze will anesthetize the public to it.
It's a tactic that allowed trump to own the narrative of fake news for several years.
Find something big, make sure it will resonate with the general public and go heavy on it. |
And turn a blind eye to cronyism and dishonesty in the meantime? I'm not sure how that will go about restoring standards in public life. |  |
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| The public gets what the public wants on 14:41 - Apr 29 with 1219 views | lowhouseblue |
| The public gets what the public wants on 14:33 - Apr 29 by SpruceMoose |
I understand the passion behind not wanting to do the same old thing we've been doing for decades and expecting a different result. I genuinely do. Both Biden and Starmer are so deeply, thoroughly mundane and uninspiring to me. But...
I also don't believe we are living in normal times. Given the environmental situation around us I'd say there's an extremely good chance we are living in the beginning of the end times in fact.
We have maniacs in charge. Johnson, Trump, Bolsonaro, Le Pen looks a real possibility. There are homophobes in Poland and anti-democratic anti-Semites in Hungary. The list could go on. They're leading us off a cliff. That is the immediate cause for concern. We need to stem the bleeding. Pump the brakes and worry about who will reverse the car later.
I believed this about the US election. The progressive left needed to remove the immediate threat, and then work to put pressure on a more sane and fundamentally decent leader to get their policies implemented. Which is exactly what they've done. [Post edited 29 Apr 2021 14:33]
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depicting boris as a maniac - or as comparable to trump, le penn, bolsonaro - is really bad politics for the left. it doesn't resonate with voters. it's real bubble stuff. it makes the people pushing it come across as a bit unbalanced.
one of the things biden is trying to do is take some heat out of US politics - reduce the level of anger. we also need that here. brexit has been earth shatteringly divisive and some how we need to get past that. fuelling division with cartoonish name calling just fuels that division. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| The public gets what the public wants on 14:43 - Apr 29 with 1229 views | SpruceMoose |
| The public gets what the public wants on 14:27 - Apr 29 by GlasgowBlue |
I don't think that lessons are being learned over Trump. As Lowhouse said earlier, people jumping on every small thing and screaming lies and sleaze will anesthetize the public to it.
It's a tactic that allowed trump to own the narrative of fake news for several years.
Find something big, make sure it will resonate with the general public and go heavy on it. |
Nothing can resonate in the age of being beyond shame. Politicians just have to wait it out, say it's only their critics going after them, smear, dodge, ignore. It'll go away eventually when the media narrative changes to someone not eating a bacon sandwich correctly or which celebs are going to be in that jungle reality show this year.
The only things that shifted Trump out of office was fear. Fear of Covid. Fear that the country was coming apart at the seams. Fear that well off people were going to be hit in the pocket. Trump rocked the boat too much.
Trump was accused of rape. Of corruption. Of being a traitor. Of tax fraud. Impeached twice. Nothing stuck.
It's an old-fashioned view of politics to believe that decency will win the day eventually. The only thing that will win the day is the left discovering a ruthless pragmatic side and getting hold of a little power. Once they have that the more progressive wing can attempt to assert some influence in an area they actually have some control over.
I'll say this now. I highly doubt that any public outrage will be the cause of a leader resigning while we are living in this current climate. If Johnson goes it'll be because his party see an advantage in him going. There is no longer a sense that they owe the public anything in terms of decency. |  |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| The public gets what the public wants on 14:43 - Apr 29 with 1226 views | marchy |
| The public gets what the public wants on 14:41 - Apr 29 by lowhouseblue |
depicting boris as a maniac - or as comparable to trump, le penn, bolsonaro - is really bad politics for the left. it doesn't resonate with voters. it's real bubble stuff. it makes the people pushing it come across as a bit unbalanced.
one of the things biden is trying to do is take some heat out of US politics - reduce the level of anger. we also need that here. brexit has been earth shatteringly divisive and some how we need to get past that. fuelling division with cartoonish name calling just fuels that division. |
If the man has genuinely said he would rather see bodies piled up in their thousands as an alternative to...well, anything at all...how far from comparison to Trump, Le Pen and Bolsonaro is he actually? | | | |
| The public gets what the public wants on 14:46 - Apr 29 with 1203 views | SpruceMoose |
| The public gets what the public wants on 14:43 - Apr 29 by marchy |
If the man has genuinely said he would rather see bodies piled up in their thousands as an alternative to...well, anything at all...how far from comparison to Trump, Le Pen and Bolsonaro is he actually? |
You don't need to argue that point with me. I fully put him in the same category as those dangerous individuals.
However, a large number of the British public are operating under the belief that cheeky old Boris is nothing more than a loveable scamp, upsetting established institutions while deeply understanding the general public.
There's obviously truth in that last bit in that he certainly understands how to manipulate the general public extremely well. | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| The public gets what the public wants on 14:50 - Apr 29 with 1193 views | Herbivore |
| The public gets what the public wants on 14:43 - Apr 29 by marchy |
If the man has genuinely said he would rather see bodies piled up in their thousands as an alternative to...well, anything at all...how far from comparison to Trump, Le Pen and Bolsonaro is he actually? |
Lest we forget he illegally shut down parliament to try and force Brexit through. He acted unlawfully in a way that flagrantly undermined our democracy. To claim he's not in the same league as the likes of Trump and Bolsonaro is head in the sand stuff at this point. | |
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| The public gets what the public wants on 14:54 - Apr 29 with 1183 views | SpruceMoose |
| The public gets what the public wants on 14:41 - Apr 29 by lowhouseblue |
depicting boris as a maniac - or as comparable to trump, le penn, bolsonaro - is really bad politics for the left. it doesn't resonate with voters. it's real bubble stuff. it makes the people pushing it come across as a bit unbalanced.
one of the things biden is trying to do is take some heat out of US politics - reduce the level of anger. we also need that here. brexit has been earth shatteringly divisive and some how we need to get past that. fuelling division with cartoonish name calling just fuels that division. |
You always seem to have this need to blame anyone but the obvious candidates. Who put the heat into US politics to begin with Lowhouse? It wasn't the left.
You're wrong about Biden. Or you're at least miscategorising what he is doing. He may well be taking a less inflammatory approach but he isn't simply turning a blind eye to what went on over the last Presidency.
What you are asking for is unity without accountability. That's real bubble thinking to be honest, and is in no way achievable. You're being really rather unapologetic in your demands that the people who have been wronged over the last four years just get over it for the sake of people who are either bored of hearing about. You're asking people to work with a group of individuals who still seek to harm them. It's fantasy stuff.
Only someone without any real skin in the game would push that argument. | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| The public gets what the public wants on 14:56 - Apr 29 with 1171 views | marchy |
| The public gets what the public wants on 14:46 - Apr 29 by SpruceMoose |
You don't need to argue that point with me. I fully put him in the same category as those dangerous individuals.
However, a large number of the British public are operating under the belief that cheeky old Boris is nothing more than a loveable scamp, upsetting established institutions while deeply understanding the general public.
There's obviously truth in that last bit in that he certainly understands how to manipulate the general public extremely well. |
Wasn't arguing it with you, I completely agree, and quite how his "character" sustains him when he's so far beyond the pale is as disturbing as it is astounding. If we can't rely on a sense of decency and integrity to unseat him then a sharp lawyer bringing him down on a technicality might be the only way... | | | |
| The public gets what the public wants on 15:00 - Apr 29 with 1160 views | SpruceMoose |
| The public gets what the public wants on 14:56 - Apr 29 by marchy |
Wasn't arguing it with you, I completely agree, and quite how his "character" sustains him when he's so far beyond the pale is as disturbing as it is astounding. If we can't rely on a sense of decency and integrity to unseat him then a sharp lawyer bringing him down on a technicality might be the only way... |
Sorry, I thought you'd replied to me but just checked and you hadn't! I didn't think you were arguing with me either way though! | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| The public gets what the public wants on 15:01 - Apr 29 with 1161 views | Clapham_Junction |
| The public gets what the public wants on 14:13 - Apr 29 by Herbivore |
Policies rarely win elections. The Tories won a landslide on a manifesto that you could write on two sides of A4. Simple slogans and managing public perceptions wins elections. |
I'd suggest a large part of it is many years of drip fed nonsense from the tabloid media (and to a lesser extent talk radio) - even those that don't read them still pick up the headines. It's created a situation where many people have a Pavlovian response to certain organisations and public figures which no amount of reasoning or facts can resolve.
I've seen it a bit in London with Sadiq Khan. He's a pretty bland politician who hasn't done much that should upset people, but lots of people really hate him and get very angry when discussing him. However, if you try and dig down as to why, there's no substance to it; it's all vague accusations about him 'only helping Muslims' or somehow being responsible for all the violent crime in the city. |  | | |
| The public gets what the public wants on 16:01 - Apr 29 with 1120 views | Herbivore |
| The public gets what the public wants on 15:01 - Apr 29 by Clapham_Junction |
I'd suggest a large part of it is many years of drip fed nonsense from the tabloid media (and to a lesser extent talk radio) - even those that don't read them still pick up the headines. It's created a situation where many people have a Pavlovian response to certain organisations and public figures which no amount of reasoning or facts can resolve.
I've seen it a bit in London with Sadiq Khan. He's a pretty bland politician who hasn't done much that should upset people, but lots of people really hate him and get very angry when discussing him. However, if you try and dig down as to why, there's no substance to it; it's all vague accusations about him 'only helping Muslims' or somehow being responsible for all the violent crime in the city. |
Exactly the same with Brexit really. Look at how divisive it's been and how many people ended up rabidly demanding the hardest Brexit possible. Rewind less than 10 years and look at what people's priorities were, nobody cared much about the EU. But the constant drip feeding of anti-EU and anti-immigrant rhetoric and blame in certain sections of the media - worryingly, including things like Question Time - made it an issue.
I've not had a chance to fact check the polling in this article, but they are citing IPSOS Mori and I doubt they'd do so inaccurately: https://qz.com/1725402/only-5-percent-of-brits-cared-about-the-eu-before-brexit/
I suspect that many who voted leave would now say they were always passionately anti-EU but the data suggests that until they got whipped up into a frenzy by some rabid right wingers and their media pals, they didn't actually give much of a stuff either way. It's really troubling how easily the media can manipulate people and when you look at who controls the media, it's even more troubling. | |
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| The public gets what the public wants on 16:07 - Apr 29 with 1105 views | footers |
| The public gets what the public wants on 16:01 - Apr 29 by Herbivore |
Exactly the same with Brexit really. Look at how divisive it's been and how many people ended up rabidly demanding the hardest Brexit possible. Rewind less than 10 years and look at what people's priorities were, nobody cared much about the EU. But the constant drip feeding of anti-EU and anti-immigrant rhetoric and blame in certain sections of the media - worryingly, including things like Question Time - made it an issue.
I've not had a chance to fact check the polling in this article, but they are citing IPSOS Mori and I doubt they'd do so inaccurately: https://qz.com/1725402/only-5-percent-of-brits-cared-about-the-eu-before-brexit/
I suspect that many who voted leave would now say they were always passionately anti-EU but the data suggests that until they got whipped up into a frenzy by some rabid right wingers and their media pals, they didn't actually give much of a stuff either way. It's really troubling how easily the media can manipulate people and when you look at who controls the media, it's even more troubling. |
It was a perfect storm, wasn't it? There's a huge recession, the right-wing populists come out stoking divisions, blaming the EU and migrants for the working class' woes and then a steady build up from Farage, Banks and co.
I remember writing about the Greek debt crisis and a potential Grexit way back when. Usually the pieces would conclude with a small aside about Brexit and Uncle Nigel's fruitcake stall. But that's all it ever was.
Twelve years later and look where we are. It's nuts. |  |
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| The public gets what the public wants on 16:11 - Apr 29 with 1096 views | Cotty |
Check the dates of the poll. I'd be interested to know how's it gone for him since 22-26 April. |  | | |
| The public gets what the public wants on 16:34 - Apr 29 with 1066 views | StokieBlue |
| The public gets what the public wants on 14:27 - Apr 29 by GlasgowBlue |
I don't think that lessons are being learned over Trump. As Lowhouse said earlier, people jumping on every small thing and screaming lies and sleaze will anesthetize the public to it.
It's a tactic that allowed trump to own the narrative of fake news for several years.
Find something big, make sure it will resonate with the general public and go heavy on it. |
Given the events of the last few days don't seem to come under the "big" category, what exactly would you categorise as big?
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| The public gets what the public wants on 16:38 - Apr 29 with 1056 views | footers |
| The public gets what the public wants on 16:34 - Apr 29 by StokieBlue |
Given the events of the last few days don't seem to come under the "big" category, what exactly would you categorise as big?
SB |
Not a direct reply to your point, Stokie, but the public perception of boris was neatly summed up by the Blair/Brown comparison in (the criminally underrated) Time Trumpet:
"Tony Blair could sh1t in your hat and you'd want to buy him a pint; Gordon Brown could buy you a pint and you'd want to sh1t in his hat."
So, basically nothing at this point. [Post edited 29 Apr 2021 16:39]
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| The public gets what the public wants on 16:40 - Apr 29 with 1054 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| The public gets what the public wants on 14:23 - Apr 29 by Herbivore |
I'm not optimistic either. The jilted Corbynites are more concerned with getting their pound of flesh out of Keir Starmer than they are with getting the Tories out of power.
The UK is not necessarily a right wing country, not massively, but we end up with right wing governments most of the time because the right leaning voters all coalesce around the Tories. Meanwhile the centre and left of centre is split between Labour, the Lib Dems, the Greens, and more recently the SNP as well. Add their vote share together and it's greater than the share that the Tories get, but our antiquated voting system means we end up with the Tories in power with a huge majority when the reality is that the majority finds them loathsome for the most part. The majority just can't get its sh!t together to actually shift them out of power. |
Your analysis is spot on, in my opinion, but I'd amplify your point, and say:
"But we usually get Tory Governments because of the corrupt, gerrymandered, First Past the Post system, and the unwillingness of any Labour leader to enter a political pact to correct it as it gives them their best chance of winning a majority. A system which piles up meaningless votes in many constituencies, and which reinforces the view of the 30% of people who don't vote that their vote doesn't matter.
That and the fact that the media outlets are mostly owned by billionaires, who have billionaires' agendas, and still hold sway over many of the electorate.
We don't live in a democracy, we are governed by consent."
Starmer, shtarmer. He can do significantly better than Corbyn did at PMQs (and he does), he can expose Johnson's lies, laziness, hypocrisy, vanity and corruption. What does it matter? My parents will keep voting for the Eton Mess, as will my in-laws, and nothing will change until the selfish Baby Boomer generation have died out. By then Britain will be a second rate economy on the fringes of a continent that despises it. [Post edited 29 Apr 2021 16:47]
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| The public gets what the public wants on 07:44 - Apr 30 with 917 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The public gets what the public wants on 16:11 - Apr 29 by Cotty |
Check the dates of the poll. I'd be interested to know how's it gone for him since 22-26 April. |
This one was done between 27-28 April.
Half of those polled believed Boris Johnson said he would rather see ‘bodies pile high’ than impose third lockdown - just 26% believed denial
A third said if he made comment it showed how little he values saving people
But half said it demonstrated his reluctance to lockdown
Staggering really | |
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| The public gets what the public wants on 07:53 - Apr 30 with 900 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Yeah the victory of ruthless individualism over community. Cheers Maggie! |  |
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| The public gets what the public wants on 08:16 - Apr 30 with 885 views | HARRY10 |
or
"people jumping on every small thing and screaming lies and sleaze will anesthetize the public to it.
Find something big, make sure it will resonate with the general public and go heavy on it. "
So MPs should ignore an event that smacks of corruption by a sitting PM. Nor back at least a half a dozen major enquiries into these matters because.... they are not big enough, or they might appear to be screaming and jumping up and down.
Ignore blatant corruption at the highest level because it might turn off voters. What utter nonsense you post !
It matters little what voters think on this matter. MPs are there not only to make law but, with the judiciary, to uphold it as well - not decide what is best for their own political betterment.
You give yourself away as a rightie pretty much every time you post. Just as Johnson blocks the lawful democratic process by closing Parliament, so you would have that the democratic process should be manipulated so as to appease voters. Why not bring back public execution. I am sure that would play well with a certain section of society (as well as one or two on here).
Idiots like you endlessly bleat about what is wrong with current politics - then advocate it should become worse, and become even more self serving.
Well, at least you give a clear insight into the lack of reasoned thought that many voters possess, | | | |
| The public gets what the public wants on 08:17 - Apr 30 with 877 views | mr_bean |
| The public gets what the public wants on 12:26 - Apr 29 by GlasgowBlue |
You make two very good points.
1. That the public thinks all politicians are liars.
We've had expenses scandals, cash for honours, Tobacco advertising in Formula One, Mandelson's 2 (or was it 3) resignations etc which happened under a Labour government. The public may conclude that kicking out the Tories would only result in another dishonest bunch taking over. So stick with what we have. At least the pubs are reopening and the Euros start in a couple of months.
2. A lot of people like his character
Even before he became PM people knew he was a serial adulterer, helped his mate get a journalist beat up ETC. It was priced in. So when Johnson is exposed as a liar, a nation rolls it's eyes.
I think with the No 10 refurb, people aren't particularly bothered. We see lavish décor in the White House, Macron in The Élysée Palace and our PM in a pokey flat above the office. It's not something that is cutting through.
It needs something that the public can look at as being completely out of touch. So when we had the expenses scandal and there was wholesale mortgage fraud, what really pissed people off was a duckhouse and somebody claiming to clean their moat. |
I think the "let the bodies pile high" quote could be just that "something" that the public will look at as being completely out of touch. So many people (of all political persuasions) have lost loved ones to Covid that it might just turn the apathy towards Johnson's highly dubious character into anger.
....which is almost certainly why Starmer set him up so carefully in parliament by getting him to explicitly deny it. Watch this space. | | | |
| The public gets what the public wants on 08:23 - Apr 30 with 855 views | DanTheMan |
| The public gets what the public wants on 14:41 - Apr 29 by lowhouseblue |
depicting boris as a maniac - or as comparable to trump, le penn, bolsonaro - is really bad politics for the left. it doesn't resonate with voters. it's real bubble stuff. it makes the people pushing it come across as a bit unbalanced.
one of the things biden is trying to do is take some heat out of US politics - reduce the level of anger. we also need that here. brexit has been earth shatteringly divisive and some how we need to get past that. fuelling division with cartoonish name calling just fuels that division. |
"brexit has been earth shatteringly divisive and some how we need to get past that. fuelling division with cartoonish name calling just fuels that division."
But the Government actively feeds this right now, and people buy into it. |  |
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| The public gets what the public wants on 08:27 - Apr 30 with 831 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The public gets what the public wants on 08:17 - Apr 30 by mr_bean |
I think the "let the bodies pile high" quote could be just that "something" that the public will look at as being completely out of touch. So many people (of all political persuasions) have lost loved ones to Covid that it might just turn the apathy towards Johnson's highly dubious character into anger.
....which is almost certainly why Starmer set him up so carefully in parliament by getting him to explicitly deny it. Watch this space. |
I thought that would be “the one” but the latest poll shows that people don’t give a toss. He’s telling it like it is. Get the pubs open. | |
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| The public gets what the public wants on 08:29 - Apr 30 with 824 views | Herbivore |
| The public gets what the public wants on 08:23 - Apr 30 by DanTheMan |
"brexit has been earth shatteringly divisive and some how we need to get past that. fuelling division with cartoonish name calling just fuels that division."
But the Government actively feeds this right now, and people buy into it. |
Unfortunately some are blind to what the government is doing and constantly seek to point the finger elsewhere. | |
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| The public gets what the public wants on 08:40 - Apr 30 with 782 views | RadioOrwell |
| The public gets what the public wants on 10:57 - Apr 29 by Beckets |
Starmer certainly went into lawyer mode yesterday and Johnson looked distinctly uncomfortable. I do think the 1922 Committee will get Johnson out of office before the public. I suspect he has largely served his purpose now as far as they’re concerned. |
The Tories are better at removing Tory PMs than the public. |  | | |
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