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I thought I try and raise the intellectual standard today with a little rhetorical question. I was watching an old series War & Remembrance in which comment is passed that El Alamein will be the last battle fought by 'the British' (a term used loosely as there was acknowledgement paid to the part paid by 'Empire')
I immediately thought well actually I guess the Falklands probably was 'our last war', although that could be argued as we got a lot of help from the Yanks
Anyway got me thinking which historically could be argued to be the most important/siginificant battle?
Ashdown Hastings Agincourt Naseby Culloden Waterloo Amiens Cable Street El Alamein
Feel free to add other!!
I doubt there is a right or wrong answer but there are several historians on here and I thought it might make for an interesting thread
Most important battle in British history ? on 19:02 - May 27 by nodge_blue
So here's a bit of detail from the biography....
On Sept 6 1940 misinterpreted Intelligence led to the fear of an imminent invasion and the codeword Cromwell was sent to all British forces in the UK alerting them to immediate action.
It was only later decrypted enigma interceptions that revealed that German plans were ill advanced. "relieved, but not lulled into complacency, he (churchill) at once suggested bombing raids on calais and bolulogne in which final invasion plans would have had to be made"
Only more enigma messages later in the year led churchill on Nov 2 to think the invasion was off.
"I read a biography of Churchill the other year, I may have to reread the time around the battle of Britain, but I never got the impression that Churchill wasn't worried about losing air superiority and the very real threat of invasion at a number of places along the coast.
I can see you have studied this alot but I think you are under playing the threat we felt under. And even if senior German commanders were sceptical of success, I think Hitler was pushing for invasion. "
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Most important battle in British history ? on 22:00 - May 27 with 3135 views
Most important battle in British history ? on 21:54 - May 27 by HARRY10
"I read a biography of Churchill the other year, I may have to reread the time around the battle of Britain, but I never got the impression that Churchill wasn't worried about losing air superiority and the very real threat of invasion at a number of places along the coast.
I can see you have studied this alot but I think you are under playing the threat we felt under. And even if senior German commanders were sceptical of success, I think Hitler was pushing for invasion. "
Most important battle in British history ? on 13:06 - May 26 by StochesStotasBlewe
Monte Cassino. Although a joint allied battle, was brutal resulting in huge losses for the allies and axis forces. Some decent books on the allied invasion of Italy and the following battles that took place.
Also, some good reads on the Korean War involving British forces. Another conflict that perhaps doesn’t get much attention but has had huge consequences for the region ever since.
There are some fascinating stories of small scale engagements involving SAS and other special forces and will have a look when I’m not at work later and get some more information up on here, but they often had huge a big impact on the outcome of much larger battles taking place.
[Post edited 26 May 2021 13:11]
Monte Cassino by Matthew Parker is a very good book. This lad took part, one of the best stories of WWII
As an enlisted soldier with his own paybook, rank, and serial number, he lived with the other men in tents or in a special wooden crate, which was transported by truck. During the Battle of Monte Cassino, Wojtek helped his unit to convey ammunition by carrying 100-pound (45 kg) crates of 25-pound artillery shells, never dropping any of them. While this story generated controversy over its accuracy, at least one account exists of a British soldier recalling seeing a bear carrying crates of ammo.[10] The bear mimicked the soldiers: when he saw the men lifting crates, he copied them. Wojtek carried boxes that normally required 4 men, which he would stack onto a truck or other ammunition boxes.[11] This service at Monte Cassino earned him promotion to the rank of corporal. In recognition of Wojtek's popularity, a depiction of a bear carrying an artillery shell was adopted as the official emblem of the 22nd Company.[8]
Most important battle in British history ? on 19:02 - May 27 by nodge_blue
So here's a bit of detail from the biography....
On Sept 6 1940 misinterpreted Intelligence led to the fear of an imminent invasion and the codeword Cromwell was sent to all British forces in the UK alerting them to immediate action.
It was only later decrypted enigma interceptions that revealed that German plans were ill advanced. "relieved, but not lulled into complacency, he (churchill) at once suggested bombing raids on calais and bolulogne in which final invasion plans would have had to be made"
Only more enigma messages later in the year led churchill on Nov 2 to think the invasion was off.
"I read a biography of Churchill the other year, I may have to reread the time around the battle of Britain, but I never got the impression that Churchill wasn't worried about losing air superiority and the very real threat of invasion at a number of places along the coast.
I can see you have studied this alot but I think you are under playing the threat we felt under. And even if senior German commanders were sceptical of success, I think Hitler was pushing for invasion. "
I cannot see how an inasion was ever feasible, or even considered a possibility either side of the channel. Itmay have been a thrwat felt, but was never a threat in reeaility - certainly to those this side of the channel
The invasion was officially stood down on 17th September when the bluff was no longer a practical plan. Anyone who has ever crossed Dover to Calais in autumn will be well aware of the sea conditions - extremely rough, even for modern ferries, never mind river barges being towed.
But assume aound 100,000 soldiers could be landed, with both the RAF/Navy taking absolutely no action, the Germans had no means of supplying them with the required ammo, food etc. The German army of 1940 was mostly a horse drawn army, and so would not have the punch of fast moving heavy armour. When your whole method was based on 'blitkreig' it would be akin to asking cavalry to fight on foot. Removing the one advantage they have.
However it did not lead to complancency, but an understanding that no invasion would ever take place. That was backed by the knowledge the Germans had litle to gain by losing so much in men and material - and for what. Britain had no oil reserves, it was a good as out of the war and any soldiers used to 'garrison' Britain would be better deployed elsewhere.
In that light it was only ever a bluff. But any good bluff needs to have a firm grounding in reality - see Operation Fortitude, and why it continued long after D Day. So it was necessary to keep up the pretence of an invasion - if only in the knowledge that it would make for any peace treaty more acceptable to the British population.
It was not one sided either, as this local story tells
expanded further here, not the best listen (his voice) but a fascinating story which demonstrates how a myth can become 'fact' if it fits with what people want to believe
Most important battle in British history ? on 23:24 - May 27 by HARRY10
"I read a biography of Churchill the other year, I may have to reread the time around the battle of Britain, but I never got the impression that Churchill wasn't worried about losing air superiority and the very real threat of invasion at a number of places along the coast.
I can see you have studied this alot but I think you are under playing the threat we felt under. And even if senior German commanders were sceptical of success, I think Hitler was pushing for invasion. "
I cannot see how an inasion was ever feasible, or even considered a possibility either side of the channel. Itmay have been a thrwat felt, but was never a threat in reeaility - certainly to those this side of the channel
The invasion was officially stood down on 17th September when the bluff was no longer a practical plan. Anyone who has ever crossed Dover to Calais in autumn will be well aware of the sea conditions - extremely rough, even for modern ferries, never mind river barges being towed.
But assume aound 100,000 soldiers could be landed, with both the RAF/Navy taking absolutely no action, the Germans had no means of supplying them with the required ammo, food etc. The German army of 1940 was mostly a horse drawn army, and so would not have the punch of fast moving heavy armour. When your whole method was based on 'blitkreig' it would be akin to asking cavalry to fight on foot. Removing the one advantage they have.
However it did not lead to complancency, but an understanding that no invasion would ever take place. That was backed by the knowledge the Germans had litle to gain by losing so much in men and material - and for what. Britain had no oil reserves, it was a good as out of the war and any soldiers used to 'garrison' Britain would be better deployed elsewhere.
In that light it was only ever a bluff. But any good bluff needs to have a firm grounding in reality - see Operation Fortitude, and why it continued long after D Day. So it was necessary to keep up the pretence of an invasion - if only in the knowledge that it would make for any peace treaty more acceptable to the British population.
It was not one sided either, as this local story tells
expanded further here, not the best listen (his voice) but a fascinating story which demonstrates how a myth can become 'fact' if it fits with what people want to believe
But your argument is not backed up by Churchill’s own thoughts on it.
There was a real threat of invasion. Only offset by winning the Battle of Britain and later by decryption of enigma messages. It was Altlees diary entry that noted Churchill’s relief in the November that the threat of invasion was over. There was no consensus as you’ve suggested that there was no invasion coming.
I think you are applying hindsight to your view.
The army going to Africa was because Churchill was desperate to launch some offensive against Germany. A signal to everyone including the public that the series of defeats we had suffered to then could be reversed. It wasn’t because of complacency about the invasion threat.
You only have to see that we went to an imminent invasion footing in the late summer to see how seriously it was being taken.
It’s an interesting debate but I’m not convinced of your arguments.
Most important battle in British history ? on 23:49 - May 27 by nodge_blue
But your argument is not backed up by Churchill’s own thoughts on it.
There was a real threat of invasion. Only offset by winning the Battle of Britain and later by decryption of enigma messages. It was Altlees diary entry that noted Churchill’s relief in the November that the threat of invasion was over. There was no consensus as you’ve suggested that there was no invasion coming.
I think you are applying hindsight to your view.
The army going to Africa was because Churchill was desperate to launch some offensive against Germany. A signal to everyone including the public that the series of defeats we had suffered to then could be reversed. It wasn’t because of complacency about the invasion threat.
You only have to see that we went to an imminent invasion footing in the late summer to see how seriously it was being taken.
It’s an interesting debate but I’m not convinced of your arguments.
Sorry, but the second part of your post is seriously flawed.
Churchill sent extra troops to Africa in 1940 to shore up British land forces and ultimately counter attack and defeat the Italian army and had nothing to do with the non-existent German troops in the region.
UK naval forces had already effectively ended any French naval influence and were actively engaged in reducing what were quite powerful Italian naval assets.
These actions forced the Germans to intervene to prop up Mussilini in1941, using significant amounts of men and materials that would have been better used elsewhere ie Russia.
[Post edited 28 May 2021 1:57]
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Most important battle in British history ? on 09:43 - May 28 with 2982 views
Most important battle in British history ? on 01:33 - May 28 by lightuser
Sorry, but the second part of your post is seriously flawed.
Churchill sent extra troops to Africa in 1940 to shore up British land forces and ultimately counter attack and defeat the Italian army and had nothing to do with the non-existent German troops in the region.
UK naval forces had already effectively ended any French naval influence and were actively engaged in reducing what were quite powerful Italian naval assets.
These actions forced the Germans to intervene to prop up Mussilini in1941, using significant amounts of men and materials that would have been better used elsewhere ie Russia.
[Post edited 28 May 2021 1:57]
So Rommel and the Afrika Korps didn't exist? Interesting...
Most important battle in British history ? on 09:43 - May 28 by WeWereZombies
So Rommel and the Afrika Korps didn't exist? Interesting...
Indeed
The other, and often overlooked issue with the North African campaign was that has the germans broken through at El Alamein there would have been three consequences
1, The British Empire would have been effectively cut in two making it much harder to get troops and supplies to India, which would have had a knock effect with the Burma campaigns and battles like impala
2, The Nazi would have had access to the middle oil supplies
3, part of the German planning was that Rommel could have moved up to through Palestine and potentially made the Russian divert troops away from the southern theatres to protect themselves from a possible southern attack. (bear in mind that original plan was the Japanese would move move through Asia than the pacific)
Most important battle in British history ? on 09:50 - May 28 by Keno
Indeed
The other, and often overlooked issue with the North African campaign was that has the germans broken through at El Alamein there would have been three consequences
1, The British Empire would have been effectively cut in two making it much harder to get troops and supplies to India, which would have had a knock effect with the Burma campaigns and battles like impala
2, The Nazi would have had access to the middle oil supplies
3, part of the German planning was that Rommel could have moved up to through Palestine and potentially made the Russian divert troops away from the southern theatres to protect themselves from a possible southern attack. (bear in mind that original plan was the Japanese would move move through Asia than the pacific)
All three points are pertinent, and the other issue that lightuser has missed is that there was no German naval presence in the Mediterranean because Britain controlled Gibraltar and thus the entrance to the sea. So the Nazis were resigned to using the less effective Regia Marina and the Italian merchant fleet to support land and air forces in North Africa.
Most important battle in British history ? on 09:57 - May 28 by WeWereZombies
All three points are pertinent, and the other issue that lightuser has missed is that there was no German naval presence in the Mediterranean because Britain controlled Gibraltar and thus the entrance to the sea. So the Nazis were resigned to using the less effective Regia Marina and the Italian merchant fleet to support land and air forces in North Africa.
And a portion of that Italian navy have been sunk or damaged at the Battle of Taranto
which incidentally gave the Japanese the blueprint for the attack on Pearl Harbour a year later
Most important battle in British history ? on 13:48 - May 26 by Kropotkin123
1066 Battle of Hastings has to be number one for me. Last battle we lost on home soil. Changed the course of language and history. Gave us claims later down the line on continental Europe which led wars with European countries.
By the same stroke of the brush, beating the Vikings in the battle Stamford Bridge was important, as it meant that it was us verses the Norman conquest. A Viking win could have likely seen Great Britain split into multiple vassals.
Despite the accusation that winning the battle of Britain wasn't that important. It really was. Losing control of the air space would have cut of supplies from America and we wouldn't have had a strong base to launch our own attacks. Europe might have ended up being steamrolled by Russia, with a dramatically different European landscape.
In the spirit of reconciliation and happiness at the end of the Banter Era (RIP) and as a result of promotion I have cleared out my ignore list. Look forwards to reading your posts!
Most important battle in British history ? on 09:57 - May 28 by WeWereZombies
All three points are pertinent, and the other issue that lightuser has missed is that there was no German naval presence in the Mediterranean because Britain controlled Gibraltar and thus the entrance to the sea. So the Nazis were resigned to using the less effective Regia Marina and the Italian merchant fleet to support land and air forces in North Africa.
And Britain sunk the French navy so that the germans couldn't use it.
Most important battle in British history ? on 12:23 - May 28 by nodge_blue
And Britain sunk the French navy so that the germans couldn't use it.
Actually most of the French Navy was scuttled by Vichy France to prevent their supposed Nazi allies from having control of the fleet and compromising France politically, except that scuttling the fleet meant that Vichy had less bargaining power with the Nazis and Fascist Italy:
Most important battle in British history ? on 23:49 - May 27 by nodge_blue
But your argument is not backed up by Churchill’s own thoughts on it.
There was a real threat of invasion. Only offset by winning the Battle of Britain and later by decryption of enigma messages. It was Altlees diary entry that noted Churchill’s relief in the November that the threat of invasion was over. There was no consensus as you’ve suggested that there was no invasion coming.
I think you are applying hindsight to your view.
The army going to Africa was because Churchill was desperate to launch some offensive against Germany. A signal to everyone including the public that the series of defeats we had suffered to then could be reversed. It wasn’t because of complacency about the invasion threat.
You only have to see that we went to an imminent invasion footing in the late summer to see how seriously it was being taken.
It’s an interesting debate but I’m not convinced of your arguments.
That is bizarre to say the least - and smacks of muddleing (making up) 'facts to back a flawed narrative.
Why would Atlee be talking of Nov 2nd when Hitler had already postponed Operation Sealion on September 27th ?
Enigma messages were altready being read by Sept 1939, and the Luftwaffe's before the Battle of Britain.
The troops were sent to North Africa in August 1940 during the height of the Battle of Britain - the German Africa Korps did not arrive until until Feruary 1941.
Challenge my understanding of these events, that is part of a forum, but have the courtesey to others, and those who fought and died, to check your facts first......something you clearly feel has no importance, or requirement.
[Post edited 28 May 2021 15:08]
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Most important battle in British history ? on 14:24 - May 28 with 2856 views
Most important battle in British history ? on 09:43 - May 28 by WeWereZombies
So Rommel and the Afrika Korps didn't exist? Interesting...
The Africa Corp did exist, but not until 1941. It was created to help the Italians who were losing badly in North Africa.
Therefore, I was correct to state that in 1940, Nazi forces were non-existant in the area (including naval assets).
We were fighting the Italians in the Mediterranean theatre after they declared war on the Allies in 1940.
Sorry, but you and the other poster seem to have forgotten about the Italians in 1940 and have assumed that the Africa Corps were involved from the beginning, or early on in the war?
This is incorrect.
I'm trying to remember stuff from 30+ years ago, but I'm usually not wrong !! Peace. ðŸ‘ðŸ˜
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Most important battle in British history ? on 14:29 - May 28 with 2833 views
Most important battle in British history ? on 14:24 - May 28 by lightuser
The Africa Corp did exist, but not until 1941. It was created to help the Italians who were losing badly in North Africa.
Therefore, I was correct to state that in 1940, Nazi forces were non-existant in the area (including naval assets).
We were fighting the Italians in the Mediterranean theatre after they declared war on the Allies in 1940.
Sorry, but you and the other poster seem to have forgotten about the Italians in 1940 and have assumed that the Africa Corps were involved from the beginning, or early on in the war?
This is incorrect.
I'm trying to remember stuff from 30+ years ago, but I'm usually not wrong !! Peace. ðŸ‘ðŸ˜
Haven't forgotten the Italians, see comment about Taranto
They have by and large been beaten in North Africa until Rommel et al arrived
Most important battle in British history ? on 19:59 - May 27 by Timefliesbyintheblue
I was there on my Lambretta wearing my parka!
Where were you from back then? isn't it confirmed as London Mods getting caught up in a bit of bantz with local Plod on a very wet and dreary easter B/H, a slow news day, with a few local Rockers being in the vacinity? Ditto Brighton, but with a few more actually loooking for it after the press of Clacton. The end of the underground Mod scene. I was there in 84', and that was a 'busy' weekend with the Hornchurch Casuals!
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Most important battle in British history ? on 14:40 - May 28 with 2820 views
It's arguable that the Brits who largely opted out of WW2 only achieved one significant vistory in the entire conflict....
The Battle of Kohima. Had the Japanese been able to waltz into India unopposed that might have put the cat amongst the pigeons -though they were a tad overstretched.
As it was WW2 was largely over by 1942 - ElAlamein - esentially a minor skirmish in the desert compared to significant events elsewhere - Midway and Stalingrad.
"The army going to Africa was because Churchill was desperate to launch some offensive against Germany. A signal to everyone including the public that the series of defeats we had suffered to then could be reversed. It wasn’t because of complacency about the invasion threat. "
So Churchill thought that a victory could be had in some as yet undefined part of North Africa, against a yet unformed German army unit at some unknown date ?
No further comment on that nonsense is needed
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Most important battle in British history ? on 15:02 - May 28 with 2789 views
Most important battle in British history ? on 14:40 - May 28 by ElephantintheRoom
It's arguable that the Brits who largely opted out of WW2 only achieved one significant vistory in the entire conflict....
The Battle of Kohima. Had the Japanese been able to waltz into India unopposed that might have put the cat amongst the pigeons -though they were a tad overstretched.
As it was WW2 was largely over by 1942 - ElAlamein - esentially a minor skirmish in the desert compared to significant events elsewhere - Midway and Stalingrad.
That edge is getting really blunt now...and tiresome.
It could be argued that Mussillini's decision to enter the war cost the German's the war because Hitler had to send a Korp to Africa that he should have used in Russia.
Therefore, it was the Brits that won it by "largely doing nothing" I suppose and getting lucky "as usual".
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