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I thought I try and raise the intellectual standard today with a little rhetorical question. I was watching an old series War & Remembrance in which comment is passed that El Alamein will be the last battle fought by 'the British' (a term used loosely as there was acknowledgement paid to the part paid by 'Empire')
I immediately thought well actually I guess the Falklands probably was 'our last war', although that could be argued as we got a lot of help from the Yanks
Anyway got me thinking which historically could be argued to be the most important/siginificant battle?
Ashdown Hastings Agincourt Naseby Culloden Waterloo Amiens Cable Street El Alamein
Feel free to add other!!
I doubt there is a right or wrong answer but there are several historians on here and I thought it might make for an interesting thread
Most important battle in British history ? on 20:52 - May 26 by HARRY10
"And the battle of Britain in the air which again stopped an invasion by Germany. The navy wasn't so key now to the invasion but air control was. "
talk about getting things arz about face
have read of what the German generals were saying at the time and after - General Halder rejected this: "From the army's point of view I regard it as complete suicide, I might just as well put the troops that have landed straight through the sausage machine" as the German navy would not have been able to hold off the Royal Navy
there were no specialised landing/troop carrying craft, only inland barges that would have to be towed at around 4mph and would be swamped by the sea swell in the channel, nothing that could reliably transport vehicles, never mind tanks
any wonder the head of the Luftwaffe (Goring). the Kreigsmarine (Raeder) and the army high command all opposed the idea - in fact
"in Churchill's view, "the great invasion scare" was "serving a most useful purpose" by "keeping every man and woman tuned to a high pitch of readiness". He did not think the threat credible. On 10 July, he advised the War Cabinet that the possibility of invasion could be ignored, as it "would be a most hazardous and suicidal operation"; and on 13 August that "now that we were so much stronger", he thought "we could spare an armoured brigade from this country".
Over-riding General Dill, Churchill initiated Operation Apology by which a series of troop convoys, including three tank regiments and eventually the entire 2nd Armoured Division, were sent around the Cape of Good Hope to reinforce General Wavell in the Middle East in support of operations against Italian colonial forces "
Further reading will show how German troops were actually 'stood down'that summer, and almost no credible training for an invasion ever took place
Good knowledge!
I knew we still had a strong navy and that it was still very much a factor. But I'd always thought it was air superiority that was the real key.
Most important battle in British history ? on 21:21 - May 26 by nodge_blue
Good knowledge!
I knew we still had a strong navy and that it was still very much a factor. But I'd always thought it was air superiority that was the real key.
Even with air superiority there never could have been a successful invasion - and the consensus is there never was any intent.
The thought on the German side was that Britain would sue for peace, allowing theGermans to focus on their real aims/needs. Grain, oil and 'slave' workers from the Slav states. Air superiority would have permitted German bombers to push GB toward that peace agreement.
It was that need for oil that saw British troops moved to Egypt that summerm to block off any attack on Middle East oilfields - if you have the time, it is explained here
adding to the idea that not all is as we are led to believe....SS soldiers as guards at the Nurembourg trials
[Post edited 27 May 2021 10:59]
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Most important battle in British history ? on 23:08 - May 26 with 1172 views
Most important battle in British history ? on 12:01 - May 26 by Illinoisblue
Blur v Oasis mid 90s.
Thing is with that one is Roll With It and Country House were both the sh!ttest songs both band ever produced. I remember when it was top story on BBC News. I did my bit and got Roll With It from Compact Music in Sudbury the day it came out. I was a 16 year old Indie kid and read the NME and MM religiously. I remember the Britpop wars of 95.
Most important battle in British history ? on 20:52 - May 26 by HARRY10
"And the battle of Britain in the air which again stopped an invasion by Germany. The navy wasn't so key now to the invasion but air control was. "
talk about getting things arz about face
have read of what the German generals were saying at the time and after - General Halder rejected this: "From the army's point of view I regard it as complete suicide, I might just as well put the troops that have landed straight through the sausage machine" as the German navy would not have been able to hold off the Royal Navy
there were no specialised landing/troop carrying craft, only inland barges that would have to be towed at around 4mph and would be swamped by the sea swell in the channel, nothing that could reliably transport vehicles, never mind tanks
any wonder the head of the Luftwaffe (Goring). the Kreigsmarine (Raeder) and the army high command all opposed the idea - in fact
"in Churchill's view, "the great invasion scare" was "serving a most useful purpose" by "keeping every man and woman tuned to a high pitch of readiness". He did not think the threat credible. On 10 July, he advised the War Cabinet that the possibility of invasion could be ignored, as it "would be a most hazardous and suicidal operation"; and on 13 August that "now that we were so much stronger", he thought "we could spare an armoured brigade from this country".
Over-riding General Dill, Churchill initiated Operation Apology by which a series of troop convoys, including three tank regiments and eventually the entire 2nd Armoured Division, were sent around the Cape of Good Hope to reinforce General Wavell in the Middle East in support of operations against Italian colonial forces "
Further reading will show how German troops were actually 'stood down'that summer, and almost no credible training for an invasion ever took place
67th medium regiment - Royal Artillery were among those sent to Egypt. They later added Suffolk to their name.
Most important battle in British history ? on 23:08 - May 26 by Melford
Thing is with that one is Roll With It and Country House were both the sh!ttest songs both band ever produced. I remember when it was top story on BBC News. I did my bit and got Roll With It from Compact Music in Sudbury the day it came out. I was a 16 year old Indie kid and read the NME and MM religiously. I remember the Britpop wars of 95.
And when the smoke cleared and all the bluster was exhausted it was Suede and Pulp who emerged as the best bands of the era...
Most important battle in British history ? on 13:07 - May 26 by factual_blue
It depends what you mean by 'important', as any professional historian will tell you. If you mean broader historical significance, then probably Bosworth. It's probably too early to say about any more recent ones.
The Battles of the Atlantic in both World Wars were very important ones not to lose.
Historically most of our 'battles' are defeats, rearguard actions or not really fought by us at all.
"Historically most of our battles are defeats..."
And the empire magically appeared from thin air despite them, due to the luck of location (being an island), luck of being resource rich, lucky strategic decisions, lucky alliances where our allies did all of the work whilst plucky Britain put her feet up, watched the action unfold, then pushed the ally aside with a cheery wave and a "thank you very much" and proeeded to rape the untold riches from another blooded Johhny Foreigner.
I think that's how revisionists like to describe more recent British history? 🤷â€â™€ï¸ðŸ˜
Anyway, for what it's worth, I think that the most important "battle" for Britain (and Western Europe?) since Stamford Bridge (excellent shout btw) was the centuries long religious war started by Henry VIII against the Roman Catholic Church.
Most important battle in British history... on 21:21 - May 26 by Sivell
Definitely ...of Britain, as already mentioned.
If for no other reason, imagine what would have become of us who are socialists, or of Polish, Traveller, Jewish, etc, descent.
Too dreadful to even comprehend.
Given that had the Battle of Britain (as known) in the grand scheme been lost, not much would have changed in the grand scheme of things.
Given the weather from mid September onwards the ablity of either side to continue to operations as before would diminish. The German bombing campaign had acieved little beyond local damage, whereas British bombing had had a marked effect on German barges. Something that was beginning to have a detrimental efeect of the German economy.
Blitzkrieg was not possible across the channel, and the limitations of armed forces trained and equiped for that purpose were brutall deposed over Britain that summer. The Stuka was so inept that it was withdrawn mid August, and it's fighter force was handicapped by having to defend it's bombers.
All in all it was little more tha a huge bluff on the pat of German high command that was doomed to failure - hence some of the best British armed units being sent to North Africa.
This is not to detract from the actions of pilots, ground crew and others on this side of the channel that summer. But it was always a 'battle' the Germans were going to lose, and one that played little in the real battle (war) ................. the one for oil, fought in Eastern Europe.
that is a meaningless claim
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Most important battle in British history... on 11:08 - May 27 with 986 views
Most important battle in British history... on 10:56 - May 27 by HARRY10
Given that had the Battle of Britain (as known) in the grand scheme been lost, not much would have changed in the grand scheme of things.
Given the weather from mid September onwards the ablity of either side to continue to operations as before would diminish. The German bombing campaign had acieved little beyond local damage, whereas British bombing had had a marked effect on German barges. Something that was beginning to have a detrimental efeect of the German economy.
Blitzkrieg was not possible across the channel, and the limitations of armed forces trained and equiped for that purpose were brutall deposed over Britain that summer. The Stuka was so inept that it was withdrawn mid August, and it's fighter force was handicapped by having to defend it's bombers.
All in all it was little more tha a huge bluff on the pat of German high command that was doomed to failure - hence some of the best British armed units being sent to North Africa.
This is not to detract from the actions of pilots, ground crew and others on this side of the channel that summer. But it was always a 'battle' the Germans were going to lose, and one that played little in the real battle (war) ................. the one for oil, fought in Eastern Europe.
that is a meaningless claim
Not to mention that it was over ‘home turf’ and at the limits of Axis fighter range. Uninjured Allied pilots who were shot down were often back in action on the same or next day whilst their German counterparts were captured or in the Channel and only had a short time to actually fight before having to head home.
It's 106 miles to Portman Road, we've got a full tank of gas, half a round of Port Salut, it's dark... and we're wearing blue tinted sunglasses.
Most important battle in British history ? on 09:46 - May 26 by Keno
From what I understand the US gave us a lot of intelligence and access to the satellite technology they had
There was as 'public' persona and private actions.
The US secretary of state was honoured by the Queen shortly afterwards for 'services to the crown'
Secretary of the US Navy was actively arming the Royal Navy and making Ascension Island airport one of the busiest in the world this was despite Ronnie telling his cabinet not to get involved at that time. This order was also ignored by CIA director George Bush and NSA director who moved US intelligence satellites to pick up Argentine communications!
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Most important battle in British history ? on 11:20 - May 27 with 940 views
Most important battle in British history ? on 22:14 - May 26 by HARRY10
Even with air superiority there never could have been a successful invasion - and the consensus is there never was any intent.
The thought on the German side was that Britain would sue for peace, allowing theGermans to focus on their real aims/needs. Grain, oil and 'slave' workers from the Slav states. Air superiority would have permitted German bombers to push GB toward that peace agreement.
It was that need for oil that saw British troops moved to Egypt that summerm to block off any attack on Middle East oilfields - if you have the time, it is explained here
adding to the idea that not all is as we are led to believe....SS soldiers as guards at the Nurembourg trials
[Post edited 27 May 2021 10:59]
I read a biography of Churchill the other year, I may have to reread the time around the battle of Britain, but I never got the impression that Churchill wasn't worried about losing air superiority and the very real threat of invasion at a number of places along the coast.
I can see you have studied this alot but I think you are under playing the threat we felt under. And even if senior German commanders were sceptical of success, I think Hitler was pushing for invasion.
Most important battle in British history... on 11:08 - May 27 by Plums
Not to mention that it was over ‘home turf’ and at the limits of Axis fighter range. Uninjured Allied pilots who were shot down were often back in action on the same or next day whilst their German counterparts were captured or in the Channel and only had a short time to actually fight before having to head home.
Those are reasons, as was the supply of high octane fuel by the US, tactics that were not suited and the availability of radar.
But given the intent was to try to force Britain into some form of peace it was never going to work.
And as with WW1 unless there could be a complete victory in the first strike, there was only ever going to be one ending - defeat for Germany.
If you look at so many supposed decisive battele and the context they were set in the battle that is remembered is often little more thsn the 'coup de grace', though projected by the winners as an unexpected and exceptional feat.
Whereas who knws the role the French 1st army played in stopping the Gerans in the days if the Dunkirk evacuation. A much smaller force, with limited resources of ammunition, food and equipment, whi did something the BEF could not - halted tge orevuously unbeaten German army, then went with them toe to toe.
If you spend 12 minutes of your time today, this will be it's 'finest' twelve minutes - do watch
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Most important battle in British history ? on 11:49 - May 27 with 907 views
Most important battle in British history ? on 10:31 - May 27 by Oldsmoker
Correct - the weather did play a significant role. The decision by the Spanish armada to go north didn't help either. That was 1588.
The defeat by the Spanish of the English armada in 1589 never gets a mention.
However, if there had been no fleet of, smaller, ships waiting to engage the Armada then the Spanish would have sailed straight up the Solent and set down an army to march on London instead of heading north. So Drake and crew did have a say in matters.
A few decades later, and I owe this morning's very fascinating but also quite politically and theologically complex 'In Our Time' for reminding me of it, the second Battle of Dunbar occurred. A decisive English victory seemed to give Parliament the mandate to establish a long lasting republic and full overthrow of monarchy. The similarly inclined Scots nevertheless carried on supporting the, now Calvninistically browbeaten, King and so managed to hold onto legal and religious freedoms which enabled them to maintain the House of Stewart and even enter into the Act of Union as equal partners. And then there is the fallout in Ireland...so not such a decisive battle as it first seemed and we are still struggling with the consequences today. But the Wikipedia page does have this great phrase to ash someone to read after they have had a few pints:
'In the summer of 1651 the English crossed the Firth of Forth to land a force in Fife...'
"However, if there had been no fleet of, smaller, ships waiting to engage the Armada then the Spanish would have sailed straight up the Solent and set down an army to march on London instead of heading north. So Drake and crew did have a say in matters. "
Not correct.
The armada was to help carry troops from Northern France to land near London - to have landed anywhere near the solent would have been pointless.
As with 1940, the Spanish did no thave the wherewithall to ferry these troops out to the armada. The English made a retaliatory strike a year later, followed by two more attacks by the Spanish. Nothing was really decided, other than the futility of such attacks and the formal hostilities ended in 1604.
Unfortunately this has come to be seen as an isolated battle, where a decisive victory sttled matters.......it was not, nor did it.
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Most important battle in British history ? on 13:58 - May 27 with 859 views
Most important battle in British history ? on 09:46 - May 26 by Keno
From what I understand the US gave us a lot of intelligence and access to the satellite technology they had
There was as 'public' persona and private actions.
The US secretary of state was honoured by the Queen shortly afterwards for 'services to the crown'
The US also covertly provided us with the SHRIKE anti-radiation missile, for use against Argentine radar installations.
Proved to be a touch embarrassing for all concerned when a Vulcan had to emergency divert to Brazil with one stuck under a wing pylon, as it couldn't be jettisoned....
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Most important battle in British history ? on 15:51 - May 27 with 827 views
Most important battle in British history ? on 13:55 - May 27 by HARRY10
"However, if there had been no fleet of, smaller, ships waiting to engage the Armada then the Spanish would have sailed straight up the Solent and set down an army to march on London instead of heading north. So Drake and crew did have a say in matters. "
Not correct.
The armada was to help carry troops from Northern France to land near London - to have landed anywhere near the solent would have been pointless.
As with 1940, the Spanish did no thave the wherewithall to ferry these troops out to the armada. The English made a retaliatory strike a year later, followed by two more attacks by the Spanish. Nothing was really decided, other than the futility of such attacks and the formal hostilities ended in 1604.
Unfortunately this has come to be seen as an isolated battle, where a decisive victory sttled matters.......it was not, nor did it.
I believe the grand plan was for the Armada to make port in Flanders to rendezvous with the Duke of Parma's 30,000 strong army & escort them to England. As was usual in these times, poor communication & the weather wrecked what was probably a flawed plan.
It's now politically. Do we want to be ruled by immoral, capitalistic, free market, ego maniacs or are we going to sit behind our screens and wipe the Labour movement out of this country? We need to be joining Labour and standing up to these people on the streets and on the doorsteps or be consigned to history like the Liberal Party.
Most important battle in British history ? on 11:20 - May 27 by nodge_blue
I read a biography of Churchill the other year, I may have to reread the time around the battle of Britain, but I never got the impression that Churchill wasn't worried about losing air superiority and the very real threat of invasion at a number of places along the coast.
I can see you have studied this alot but I think you are under playing the threat we felt under. And even if senior German commanders were sceptical of success, I think Hitler was pushing for invasion.
So here's a bit of detail from the biography....
On Sept 6 1940 misinterpreted Intelligence led to the fear of an imminent invasion and the codeword Cromwell was sent to all British forces in the UK alerting them to immediate action.
It was only later decrypted enigma interceptions that revealed that German plans were ill advanced. "relieved, but not lulled into complacency, he (churchill) at once suggested bombing raids on calais and bolulogne in which final invasion plans would have had to be made"
Only more enigma messages later in the year led churchill on Nov 2 to think the invasion was off.
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