| Marcelo Flores 08:53 - May 27 with 2828 views | hype313 |
Just reading the piece in the Star about him, how he's been asked to train with the first team by Arteta, personally the name rings a bell, but anyone know how he did for us when he was here in the youths?
Presume the old Cat 2 issue reared its ugly head again. |  |
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| Marcelo Flores on 08:58 - May 27 with 2744 views | vilanovablue |
Can't find anything online about how he did here. Signed a professional contract with Arsenal in 2020 so can't be doing too badly. He is still only 17. |  | | |
| Marcelo Flores on 09:09 - May 27 with 2652 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
It was a story at the time, similar to Ben Knight. |  |
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| Marcelo Flores on 09:11 - May 27 with 2644 views | Herbivore |
He was very young at the time, hence them being able to poach him cheaply. As I understand it though it had nothing to do with being Category 2 and he still could have been poached in the same way even if we were Category 1. |  |
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| Marcelo Flores on 09:16 - May 27 with 2592 views | hype313 |
| Marcelo Flores on 09:11 - May 27 by Herbivore |
He was very young at the time, hence them being able to poach him cheaply. As I understand it though it had nothing to do with being Category 2 and he still could have been poached in the same way even if we were Category 1. |
Ahh ok, to be honest as you say Cat 1 or 2 if Arsenal come along with big bucks and their stature, it would be hard for a youngster to turn down regardless. | |
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| Marcelo Flores on 09:22 - May 27 with 2547 views | StokieBlue |
| Marcelo Flores on 09:11 - May 27 by Herbivore |
He was very young at the time, hence them being able to poach him cheaply. As I understand it though it had nothing to do with being Category 2 and he still could have been poached in the same way even if we were Category 1. |
Pretty sure he played against us for the Arsenal U18 just before we got McGuiness.
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| Marcelo Flores on 09:31 - May 27 with 2475 views | PhilTWTD |
| Marcelo Flores on 09:11 - May 27 by Herbivore |
He was very young at the time, hence them being able to poach him cheaply. As I understand it though it had nothing to do with being Category 2 and he still could have been poached in the same way even if we were Category 1. |
I think he'd agreed a scholarship so the EPPP compensation formula didn't come into it and the clubs agreed a figure. Obviously that figure is never going to be as high as it would be for a player who was in the first team.
 Flores Compensation Agreed With Arsenal 19th Mar 2019 17:44TWTD understands the Blues have finally agreed compensation with Arsenal for 15-year-old Canadian schoolboy Marcelo Flores, who has been with the Gunners since last summer.  23
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| Marcelo Flores on 09:33 - May 27 with 2452 views | StokieBlue |
| Marcelo Flores on 09:31 - May 27 by PhilTWTD |
I think he'd agreed a scholarship so the EPPP compensation formula didn't come into it and the clubs agreed a figure. Obviously that figure is never going to be as high as it would be for a player who was in the first team.
Flores Compensation Agreed With Arsenal 19th Mar 2019 17:44TWTD understands the Blues have finally agreed compensation with Arsenal for 15-year-old Canadian schoolboy Marcelo Flores, who has been with the Gunners since last summer. 23
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Wouldn't the compensation method work better if it was actually a percentage of next sale? These big clubs poach the players when their value is low and sell when it's very high so in order to be fairer to the smaller clubs it should probably be a % of next sale so they get the benefit of that as well.
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| Marcelo Flores on 09:34 - May 27 with 2440 views | PhilTWTD |
| Marcelo Flores on 09:33 - May 27 by StokieBlue |
Wouldn't the compensation method work better if it was actually a percentage of next sale? These big clubs poach the players when their value is low and sell when it's very high so in order to be fairer to the smaller clubs it should probably be a % of next sale so they get the benefit of that as well.
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I'm sure that comes into the negotiation between the clubs but I agree, it ought to be part of the formula. If I remember rightly the deal involving Ben Knight includes clauses for further cash as he makes first-team appearances. | | | |
| Marcelo Flores on 09:37 - May 27 with 2396 views | hype313 |
| Marcelo Flores on 09:33 - May 27 by StokieBlue |
Wouldn't the compensation method work better if it was actually a percentage of next sale? These big clubs poach the players when their value is low and sell when it's very high so in order to be fairer to the smaller clubs it should probably be a % of next sale so they get the benefit of that as well.
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That's a great shout, works for all parties as lots of big clubs just hoard players, so if they sell for a significant sum and then gives the smaller clubs some compensation via the back door.
Also, youngsters that have been through these big club academies command more of an inflated fee (JET to us a prime example) | |
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| Marcelo Flores on 10:00 - May 27 with 2266 views | clive_baker |
I'm sure he was mentioned on here the other day. I heard from a pal that he's doing really well at Arsenal, they really like the look of him. Good for him if he's training with the first team, great experience for him. |  |
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| Marcelo Flores on 10:16 - May 27 with 2165 views | OhFreddieFreddie |
He played in the Dick Parker trophy for the u16’s when they lost 6-1 to spurs, 2018 I think, was by a mile the best player in the team and the only one who showed well and didn’t look out of place in comparison to the spurs players |  | | |
| Marcelo Flores on 10:33 - May 27 with 2078 views | chrismakin |
Cat 1 to 2 is crazy
You used to have to gain permission to come and watch a player. Now all the cat 1 teams have to do is give 48 hours notice that they will be coming.
The compensation packages you get are so small when they nick players. |  |
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| Marcelo Flores on 10:42 - May 27 with 2038 views | Herbivore |
| Marcelo Flores on 09:37 - May 27 by hype313 |
That's a great shout, works for all parties as lots of big clubs just hoard players, so if they sell for a significant sum and then gives the smaller clubs some compensation via the back door.
Also, youngsters that have been through these big club academies command more of an inflated fee (JET to us a prime example) |
Genuinely think it should be a standard 50% sell on to the club who the young player has been poached from. Otherwise the money invovled is a pittance and not adequate compensation for losing a big talent that they've spotted and nurtured. | |
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| Marcelo Flores on 11:00 - May 27 with 1951 views | jayessess |
| Marcelo Flores on 10:42 - May 27 by Herbivore |
Genuinely think it should be a standard 50% sell on to the club who the young player has been poached from. Otherwise the money invovled is a pittance and not adequate compensation for losing a big talent that they've spotted and nurtured. |
I don't think we've yet had a former youth player come through at a big club where such a clause would've benefited us, have we? |  |
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| Marcelo Flores on 11:01 - May 27 with 1942 views | itfcjoe |
| Marcelo Flores on 10:00 - May 27 by clive_baker |
I'm sure he was mentioned on here the other day. I heard from a pal that he's doing really well at Arsenal, they really like the look of him. Good for him if he's training with the first team, great experience for him. |
He was playing as a 10 for the U18s as a 1st year scholar which is rare at a club/academy that size.
Very, very highly rated - they pulled out all the stops to get him there and any club in the world would take him at the moment if they could.
A shame to lose him, but realistically he is of a calibre a club like us just cannot keep - especially when tied with a fairly transient background when he has lived in or has roots in Canada, Mexico, Carribean, Suffolk.......just no tie to keep them here. Both his sisters were at Arsenal but have subsequently moved to Chelsea too. |  |
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| Marcelo Flores on 11:04 - May 27 with 1917 views | itfcjoe |
| Marcelo Flores on 10:42 - May 27 by Herbivore |
Genuinely think it should be a standard 50% sell on to the club who the young player has been poached from. Otherwise the money invovled is a pittance and not adequate compensation for losing a big talent that they've spotted and nurtured. |
I think the top ups need to be more - that's the issue.
If Flores plays his whole career at Arsenal then the 100k every 10 appearances means that a player who has made 100 appearances (where it generally stops) for a big 6 club earns us only a further £1m which seems wrong when they've made it to such an extent.
But these fees you get of £800k-£1m for 15 year olds is decent money in reality - how many first teamers have we ever sold for more than that? Not as many as you'd think. | |
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| Marcelo Flores on 11:08 - May 27 with 1888 views | Herbivore |
| Marcelo Flores on 11:00 - May 27 by jayessess |
I don't think we've yet had a former youth player come through at a big club where such a clause would've benefited us, have we? |
Not yet but the two biggest examples are Knight and Flores who are still some way off fulfilling their potential. | |
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| Marcelo Flores on 11:10 - May 27 with 1885 views | clive_baker |
| Marcelo Flores on 11:01 - May 27 by itfcjoe |
He was playing as a 10 for the U18s as a 1st year scholar which is rare at a club/academy that size.
Very, very highly rated - they pulled out all the stops to get him there and any club in the world would take him at the moment if they could.
A shame to lose him, but realistically he is of a calibre a club like us just cannot keep - especially when tied with a fairly transient background when he has lived in or has roots in Canada, Mexico, Carribean, Suffolk.......just no tie to keep them here. Both his sisters were at Arsenal but have subsequently moved to Chelsea too. |
It's so hard to compete, especially as you say when he was far from rooted locally. Even if he was, it's hard to compete when a club like that comes knocking. It's so hard to remain bullish about an academy though when the best talent can be scooped out of it by the big boys. I was told the terms of the deal Ben Knight was offered by Man City, and it's absolutely preposterous. Including a full time 'remote role' at the club for a family member, as a sweetener to move up there with him. They offered to buy his parents a place up there, but instead they opted to stay in Cambs. City paid their mortgage off.
Very, very difficult for he and his family to say no to that one, and they're about as level headed as you'll find. | |
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| Marcelo Flores on 11:21 - May 27 with 1797 views | Herbivore |
| Marcelo Flores on 11:04 - May 27 by itfcjoe |
I think the top ups need to be more - that's the issue.
If Flores plays his whole career at Arsenal then the 100k every 10 appearances means that a player who has made 100 appearances (where it generally stops) for a big 6 club earns us only a further £1m which seems wrong when they've made it to such an extent.
But these fees you get of £800k-£1m for 15 year olds is decent money in reality - how many first teamers have we ever sold for more than that? Not as many as you'd think. |
Yeah that's a fair point. Perhaps something where it's either a big sell on or a big lump sum at 100 appearances maybe? That way you get the benefit if they make it at the club that poaches them or if they fall just short but get sold for decent money to a slightly lower stature club. | |
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| Marcelo Flores on 11:23 - May 27 with 1780 views | chrismakin |
| Marcelo Flores on 11:21 - May 27 by Herbivore |
Yeah that's a fair point. Perhaps something where it's either a big sell on or a big lump sum at 100 appearances maybe? That way you get the benefit if they make it at the club that poaches them or if they fall just short but get sold for decent money to a slightly lower stature club. |
In a world where football transfer fees are crazy
Would it wrong to suggest that it should be something blanketed, like for every 100 apperences it was £5 Mill to the original parent club. + 50% sell on fee something along those lines. | |
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| Marcelo Flores on 11:24 - May 27 with 1773 views | itfcjoe |
| Marcelo Flores on 11:10 - May 27 by clive_baker |
It's so hard to compete, especially as you say when he was far from rooted locally. Even if he was, it's hard to compete when a club like that comes knocking. It's so hard to remain bullish about an academy though when the best talent can be scooped out of it by the big boys. I was told the terms of the deal Ben Knight was offered by Man City, and it's absolutely preposterous. Including a full time 'remote role' at the club for a family member, as a sweetener to move up there with him. They offered to buy his parents a place up there, but instead they opted to stay in Cambs. City paid their mortgage off.
Very, very difficult for he and his family to say no to that one, and they're about as level headed as you'll find. |
It's impossible to do so, and there is a level of prospect you just can't keep which Flores and Knight fall into, realistically the last player of that quality was Andre Dozzell and we retained him due to Jason in reality.....has that worked out for him? Hard to argue it has compared to had he gone to one of the big boys.
The biggest issue we currently have it the continual weakening of Category 2 and it's games programmes. An issue that hasn't been noted yet is that there were 18 teams in 2 groups of 9 last year....Birmingham and Forest have gone to Cat 1 from the North and we are now the most Northern team in the Southern group so may end up having to move leagues with all the travel that entails.
Rumours that Posh and Luton are coming up to cat 2, so they would just go into North, but if they don't it's a big issue.
Since the category system came in, all the clubs of a similar size (bar Leeds who are undoubtedly bigger) have gone up - Swansea, PAlace, Forest, Birmingham, Burnley, Derby - it's becoming really second rate now 28 teams have Cat 1 | |
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| Marcelo Flores on 11:27 - May 27 with 1751 views | clive_baker |
| Marcelo Flores on 11:23 - May 27 by chrismakin |
In a world where football transfer fees are crazy
Would it wrong to suggest that it should be something blanketed, like for every 100 apperences it was £5 Mill to the original parent club. + 50% sell on fee something along those lines. |
It needs to be more nuanced than that, and should be based on how long they've spent developing somewhere.
If someone spends 6 months here and moves to Arsenal at 13, I don't really see why we should participate greatly in any upside when he's 20 odd. If they join our academy at 9 and get poached at 15 then yeah, there should be definite add ons at certain milestones.
It perhaps needs to be a little more formulaic, the tribunals sometimes seem a bit arbitrary. | |
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| Marcelo Flores on 11:31 - May 27 with 1740 views | itfcjoe |
| Marcelo Flores on 11:27 - May 27 by clive_baker |
It needs to be more nuanced than that, and should be based on how long they've spent developing somewhere.
If someone spends 6 months here and moves to Arsenal at 13, I don't really see why we should participate greatly in any upside when he's 20 odd. If they join our academy at 9 and get poached at 15 then yeah, there should be definite add ons at certain milestones.
It perhaps needs to be a little more formulaic, the tribunals sometimes seem a bit arbitrary. |
It is generally formulaic as you suggest - but tends to cover the intiial fee with regards to how long they'd been there when maybe it needs to also see the top ups raised similarly | |
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| Marcelo Flores on 11:37 - May 27 with 1708 views | Lamp |
| Marcelo Flores on 11:24 - May 27 by itfcjoe |
It's impossible to do so, and there is a level of prospect you just can't keep which Flores and Knight fall into, realistically the last player of that quality was Andre Dozzell and we retained him due to Jason in reality.....has that worked out for him? Hard to argue it has compared to had he gone to one of the big boys.
The biggest issue we currently have it the continual weakening of Category 2 and it's games programmes. An issue that hasn't been noted yet is that there were 18 teams in 2 groups of 9 last year....Birmingham and Forest have gone to Cat 1 from the North and we are now the most Northern team in the Southern group so may end up having to move leagues with all the travel that entails.
Rumours that Posh and Luton are coming up to cat 2, so they would just go into North, but if they don't it's a big issue.
Since the category system came in, all the clubs of a similar size (bar Leeds who are undoubtedly bigger) have gone up - Swansea, PAlace, Forest, Birmingham, Burnley, Derby - it's becoming really second rate now 28 teams have Cat 1 |
Being pushed to North would be a big blow. I know that both ourselves and Colchester are fairly active in the Essex/London hinterland when it comes to recruitment. Would be a much harder sell if there were long trips up North for 15/16 years olds at U18 level |  | | |
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