| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) 15:12 - Aug 26 with 5899 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
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| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 21:05 - Aug 26 with 1913 views | Guthrum |
| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 20:48 - Aug 26 by Darth_Koont |
Haha! I did actually wonder if you were going to make that distinction.
The Taliban came from the mujahideen so the point stands overall. |
It's a distinction which needs to be made, because the anti-Taliban Afghan forces were also part of the Mujahideen. The two are not really interchangeable. |  |
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| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 21:12 - Aug 26 with 1882 views | Digger77 |
Biden to give a statement within the hour. Let's see how many questions he's allowed to answer. |  | | |
| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 21:13 - Aug 26 with 1880 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 19:59 - Aug 26 by GlasgowBlue |
yep.
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It was a sad day for the Tory party when they rejected the likes of Rory Stewart.
Anyway, that's an aside. |  |
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| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 21:14 - Aug 26 with 1874 views | Darth_Koont |
| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 21:05 - Aug 26 by Guthrum |
It's a distinction which needs to be made, because the anti-Taliban Afghan forces were also part of the Mujahideen. The two are not really interchangeable. |
Yes, but the mujahideen as a whole fought the Russians as invaders and for their freedom.
We come along and occupy them with our “freedom” and it’s the most repressive elements, the Taliban, who actually gain strength and now are instantly in control.
Will we be self-critical and compare our ideological crusade to that of the Soviets? Doesn’t look like it. |  |
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| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 21:18 - Aug 26 with 1847 views | Guthrum |
| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 20:48 - Aug 26 by Mullet |
In regards to your 1st paragraph I saw that yesterday.
I teach a handful of Pastuns, but they don't talk about Pakistan or Afghanistan really they are very clear on their identity if that makes sense?
Can we expect Pakistan to wade in overtly? Will that draw in India, Iran et al? Maybe I'm just thinking of a Sarajevo in the Middle East scenario? |
A complicating factor is that many of the Northern Alliance are not Pashtun, but Uzbek and Tajik, so there is and ethnic/cultural angle to this also.
Tricky for Pakistan. They like to have influence in Afghanistan, but the Taliban victory emboldens their own militants, who can be supplied and find refuge over the border.
Too early to say how this will play out. The Taliban have been making fairly moderate noises, but how much control do they have over their troops, allies and hangers-on? Will they be slightly less hard-line if they aren't relying on Saudi money via al-Qaeda, as they were in the late '90s? Will they trade human rights (e.g. freedoms for women) for outside financial support - and from where? Will the Northern Alliance join the government in exchange for concessions? Lots of factors which are by no means clear at this stage.
But the Taliban are still talking to everybody and have not tried (as regime policy) to interfere directly in the evacuation. | |
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| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 21:30 - Aug 26 with 1821 views | Guthrum |
| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 21:14 - Aug 26 by Darth_Koont |
Yes, but the mujahideen as a whole fought the Russians as invaders and for their freedom.
We come along and occupy them with our “freedom” and it’s the most repressive elements, the Taliban, who actually gain strength and now are instantly in control.
Will we be self-critical and compare our ideological crusade to that of the Soviets? Doesn’t look like it. |
Point that should not be forgotten is that the 9/11 (and other) attacks were planned in, trained for and controlled from Afghanistan, using bases under protection of the Taliban regime. That could not be allowed to continue.
In that sense, our initial invasion was not comparable with the Soviet one. The issues with subsequent "nation building" are another matter, but a lot of that came down to hubris and lack of oversight.
When the West occupied in 2001, the Taliban were not destroyed, just forced from the cities back into their heartland in the south east and in the mountains. They co-opted a lot of other groups (e.g. the Haqqani Network) and even some former members of the post-2001 government. In a lot of cases recoiling from the corruption in Kabul. They were just the most organised opposition, who were able to step into the power vacuum. | |
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| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 21:43 - Aug 26 with 1784 views | Darth_Koont |
| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 21:30 - Aug 26 by Guthrum |
Point that should not be forgotten is that the 9/11 (and other) attacks were planned in, trained for and controlled from Afghanistan, using bases under protection of the Taliban regime. That could not be allowed to continue.
In that sense, our initial invasion was not comparable with the Soviet one. The issues with subsequent "nation building" are another matter, but a lot of that came down to hubris and lack of oversight.
When the West occupied in 2001, the Taliban were not destroyed, just forced from the cities back into their heartland in the south east and in the mountains. They co-opted a lot of other groups (e.g. the Haqqani Network) and even some former members of the post-2001 government. In a lot of cases recoiling from the corruption in Kabul. They were just the most organised opposition, who were able to step into the power vacuum. |
The thing about terrorism is that it’s a self-fulfilling prophesy when you turn it into a war.
In terms of what’s been allowed to continue, we seem remarkably comfortable with Saudi Arabia and Israel as our chief allies and partners in the Middle East.
You get the feeling we really don’t know what we’re doing but it pays well. | |
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| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 21:45 - Aug 26 with 1780 views | Guthrum |
Interesting that a US general has just said they are sharing some intelligence info with the Taliban, who are also working to prevent attacks on the airport. | |
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| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 21:53 - Aug 26 with 1744 views | Guthrum |
| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 21:43 - Aug 26 by Darth_Koont |
The thing about terrorism is that it’s a self-fulfilling prophesy when you turn it into a war.
In terms of what’s been allowed to continue, we seem remarkably comfortable with Saudi Arabia and Israel as our chief allies and partners in the Middle East.
You get the feeling we really don’t know what we’re doing but it pays well. |
I don't disagree that we often don't seem to know what we're doing (or make the right choices). That was partly what i was inferring by 'hubris and lack of oversight'.
I don't even think it pays that well, for governments, at least. Vast expense and no quick or easy victories. Those who claim such usually find it comes back to bite them. Even withdrawal is tricky, damaging reputations from Ford to Biden.
The US won't abandon Israel, but I've been hearing some interesting thoughts about the future of Saudi Arabia. We may already have passed peak demand for oil and it's unclear exactly how much in the way of reserves they still have. | |
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| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 22:02 - Aug 26 with 1721 views | Darth_Koont |
| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 21:53 - Aug 26 by Guthrum |
I don't disagree that we often don't seem to know what we're doing (or make the right choices). That was partly what i was inferring by 'hubris and lack of oversight'.
I don't even think it pays that well, for governments, at least. Vast expense and no quick or easy victories. Those who claim such usually find it comes back to bite them. Even withdrawal is tricky, damaging reputations from Ford to Biden.
The US won't abandon Israel, but I've been hearing some interesting thoughts about the future of Saudi Arabia. We may already have passed peak demand for oil and it's unclear exactly how much in the way of reserves they still have. |
Definitely doesn’t pay for governments or populations. But individuals and individual companies seem to do very well. I’d call it the Blair Rich Project.
I’d like to think that the Biden step back can at least make the next foreign sortie much more difficult – for the US and by extension us. Though it wouldn’t surprise me if we go a bit Suez and try to throw our limited weight around given how little self-reflection seems to be going on in our establishment politics and media.
But we need to learn that interventionism is dead and rarely, if ever, is it humanitarian and noble. | |
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| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 22:37 - Aug 26 with 1669 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 20:03 - Aug 26 by ElderGrizzly |
They are trying to say it is Biden’s fault that $75bn of equipment has been left in Afghanistan.
That equipment was sold/donated to the Afghans by the Americans. The majority of it under Trump’s tenure.
The fact they now have biometric data of every Afghan who helped the US mission is clearly u forgivable, but there is a lot of revisionism going on here
We had Afghan and UK citizens who are still working and/or did work for the FCDO around the airport today.
Just had the update in last hour they are safe, but have had to leave the area for their own safety now. No idea if or when we will get them out now
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ID cards is your take from that event? |  | | |
| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 07:49 - Aug 27 with 1529 views | WeWereZombies |
| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 21:14 - Aug 26 by Darth_Koont |
Yes, but the mujahideen as a whole fought the Russians as invaders and for their freedom.
We come along and occupy them with our “freedom” and it’s the most repressive elements, the Taliban, who actually gain strength and now are instantly in control.
Will we be self-critical and compare our ideological crusade to that of the Soviets? Doesn’t look like it. |
Where there has been a deafening silence in all the reporting and debate around the Taliban advance is the consideration of Russian influence. We know that Iran benefits from Russian economic support and that Iran benefits from having another theocratic power in place now that the Taliban have Afghanistan. After their bloody nose in the Eighties it is no surprise that Russia has no overt róle in Afghanistan but you can bet your bottom dollar that the World's biggest nation, which is geographically close to Afghanistan, will have a covert one. |  |
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| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 08:36 - Aug 27 with 1496 views | unbelievablue |
| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 21:45 - Aug 26 by Guthrum |
Interesting that a US general has just said they are sharing some intelligence info with the Taliban, who are also working to prevent attacks on the airport. |
It is in their interest to prevent these attacks too, so not surprising. |  |
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| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 08:42 - Aug 27 with 1488 views | unbelievablue |
| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 20:16 - Aug 26 by Mullet |
Are we going to see a country torn apart by old scars and tribal lines in the next few years, as the bodies pile up? Feels like we might have ushered in the end of Afghanistan in a real sense over the coming atrocities and bloodshed this week will have given rise to. |
Just feels very cyclical to me.
Worryingly, Afghanistan will once again become a beacon for the disenfranchised and fundamentalist factions of Sunni Muslims, as it did after they kicked the Soviets out. For now, the Taliban are the victors, and can ride the wave of having expelled the 'great' Western power for a while. People will flock there in great numbers, ala the ISIS Caliphate - it is easier to do this when there is geographical territory to rule. This is an Emirate, but the distinctions are not as important as the similarities. Hugely concerning for anyone whom the Taliban's warped view of the world does not appreciate. | |
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| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 09:22 - Aug 27 with 1469 views | Guthrum |
| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 07:49 - Aug 27 by WeWereZombies |
Where there has been a deafening silence in all the reporting and debate around the Taliban advance is the consideration of Russian influence. We know that Iran benefits from Russian economic support and that Iran benefits from having another theocratic power in place now that the Taliban have Afghanistan. After their bloody nose in the Eighties it is no surprise that Russia has no overt róle in Afghanistan but you can bet your bottom dollar that the World's biggest nation, which is geographically close to Afghanistan, will have a covert one. |
However, for Iran it is the wrong flavour of theocratic state - sunni rather than shi'a. As when Iraq was ruled by a sunni regime, that could actually spell trouble. Not to mention the refugee problem and the danger of Saudi-backed militants once again obtaining a foothold. The last thing Tehran wants is a new front opening up in their proxy war with Riyadh.
The Russians have hosted talks with the Taliban recently, but I suspect that is little more than protecting their interests by staying onside with the lot who are most likely to be the winners upon a Western withdrawal. The Chinese are sniffing commercial opportunities, but are also keen to avoid a haven for bases supporting militant Uighur separatists. | |
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| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 09:25 - Aug 27 with 1463 views | Guthrum |
| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 08:36 - Aug 27 by unbelievablue |
It is in their interest to prevent these attacks too, so not surprising. |
It is that they are admitting to cooperating with the Taliban to that level. | |
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| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 09:28 - Aug 27 with 1457 views | hype313 |
| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 09:22 - Aug 27 by Guthrum |
However, for Iran it is the wrong flavour of theocratic state - sunni rather than shi'a. As when Iraq was ruled by a sunni regime, that could actually spell trouble. Not to mention the refugee problem and the danger of Saudi-backed militants once again obtaining a foothold. The last thing Tehran wants is a new front opening up in their proxy war with Riyadh.
The Russians have hosted talks with the Taliban recently, but I suspect that is little more than protecting their interests by staying onside with the lot who are most likely to be the winners upon a Western withdrawal. The Chinese are sniffing commercial opportunities, but are also keen to avoid a haven for bases supporting militant Uighur separatists. |
Excellent summary Guthers, I do wonder if the Chinese will be a little more than apprehensive going in too hard given the Uighur border, this could be a safe haven for them, especially being Sunni's.
Either way, with all the said and told, there are so many factions and so many fights within fights that I really fear for the ordinary civilians in this. |  |
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| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 09:38 - Aug 27 with 1444 views | Guthrum |
| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 08:42 - Aug 27 by unbelievablue |
Just feels very cyclical to me.
Worryingly, Afghanistan will once again become a beacon for the disenfranchised and fundamentalist factions of Sunni Muslims, as it did after they kicked the Soviets out. For now, the Taliban are the victors, and can ride the wave of having expelled the 'great' Western power for a while. People will flock there in great numbers, ala the ISIS Caliphate - it is easier to do this when there is geographical territory to rule. This is an Emirate, but the distinctions are not as important as the similarities. Hugely concerning for anyone whom the Taliban's warped view of the world does not appreciate. |
There are significant differences between the theologies of the Taliban (Deobandi) and the Islamic State/al-Qaeda groups (Wahabi/Qutbist). The latter is far more violent and externally aggressive.
Part of the reason the Taliban gave shelter to those groups in the late '90s was the arab money the likes of Osama bin Laden brought with them. Also old relationships forged during the war against the Soviets, between people who are mosly now dead. The Taliban and the Afghan branch of IS are actually fierce enemies, who have attacked each other frequently.
If the Taliban can obtain support from other places (e.g. the West, Russia or China), then there is no reason for them to give safe haven to militant groups who will promote instability and risk bringing down international intervention upon their heads again. | |
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| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 09:44 - Aug 27 with 1430 views | unbelievablue |
| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 09:38 - Aug 27 by Guthrum |
There are significant differences between the theologies of the Taliban (Deobandi) and the Islamic State/al-Qaeda groups (Wahabi/Qutbist). The latter is far more violent and externally aggressive.
Part of the reason the Taliban gave shelter to those groups in the late '90s was the arab money the likes of Osama bin Laden brought with them. Also old relationships forged during the war against the Soviets, between people who are mosly now dead. The Taliban and the Afghan branch of IS are actually fierce enemies, who have attacked each other frequently.
If the Taliban can obtain support from other places (e.g. the West, Russia or China), then there is no reason for them to give safe haven to militant groups who will promote instability and risk bringing down international intervention upon their heads again. |
Granted, but it isn't necessarily their choice. There will be a great deal of what I outlined with, or without, explicit Taliban sponsorship.
To clarify, I was talking about Al-Qaeda rather than IS. Am aware of IS's incompatibility with The Taliban. | |
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| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 10:02 - Aug 27 with 1400 views | Guthrum |
| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 09:44 - Aug 27 by unbelievablue |
Granted, but it isn't necessarily their choice. There will be a great deal of what I outlined with, or without, explicit Taliban sponsorship.
To clarify, I was talking about Al-Qaeda rather than IS. Am aware of IS's incompatibility with The Taliban. |
An awful lot depends upon the Taliban's ability to exert control, over their own allies as much as opponents.
The've walked into Kabul pretty much unopposed, but could easily find themselves besieged there or run out of town if things get out of hand. They need economic support - and fast. The urban population may not take restrictions lightly, plus there are numerous (and well armed) groups in various regions who could form an effective resistance. The Panjshir valley, stronghold of the Mahsood clan, is only about 30 miles from the capital.
Fighting militants in exchange for foreign aid would gain them credibility and keep their own troops busy. | |
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| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 10:09 - Aug 27 with 1373 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Suicide bomb at Kabul airport at UK gate reports (n/t) on 09:25 - Aug 27 by Guthrum |
It is that they are admitting to cooperating with the Taliban to that level. |
Some of the data sharing, was so the Taliban checkpoints knew who to let through | | | |
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