| Given the 48% of Remainers out there 13:56 - Sep 27 with 2974 views | hype313 |
I cannot fathom why there isn't a party that has taken a look at the landscape and seen a huge opportunity to run on a Rejoin platform. Labour have given up the ghost and accepted it, yet there are millions of voters that a party could tap into.
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| Given the 48% of Remainers out there on 15:51 - Sep 27 with 741 views | Guthrum |
| Given the 48% of Remainers out there on 15:04 - Sep 27 by monytowbray |
The horse has bolted, and I do think the EU as a power structure is on the way out.
But so is the USA and we are a feeder nation to them. When the iron curtain fell many soviet allies such as North Korea saw famine as the self-reliant myth of a corrupt “communist” regime was exactly that, with those nations largely relying in the might/power/economy of the SU itself to stay afloat.
I think Britain’s ego is in for an even bigger kick up the arse than Brexit in 10-20 years when China is the dominant economy. That horse has bolted to and we could fix it tomorrow by bringing power back to British business from start to finish of whatever we’re buying rather than the corporate lobbyists who rely on the CCP’s slave labour and exploitation of citizens to profit themselves.
And I mean actual British business. Not shareholder owned overseas with holding companies and venture capitalists. Not the empty TAKE BACK CONTROL slogans which have still somehow convinced people the private model all being ironically owned by EU companies isn’t a part of said issue.
Like paying the people doing it rather than the profit extractors too. Each time you buy from a chain that’s money out of your local economy and into the hands of a venture capitalist’s tax haven.
The system is broke from the top down. |
I'm not convinced that China ever will become 'dominant' in the same way as the USA after the War, or Britain in the 19th century. Indeed, they may be approaching peak power now.
With an economy so dependent upon selling cr@p to foreigners, how do they sustain the growth necessary to continue building power? The US in the '40s, '50s and '60s had a large and wealthy domestic market. The UK half a century earlier had a captive export market in the Empire. China has neither. Their investments in places like Africa cost money and, at best, only provide discount raw materials.
The Evergrande crisis demonstrates thst the Chinese economy contains some of the same structural fragilities as the West.
Places like Europe and the UK are not dependent upon China or its arms supplies for defence. No leverage there. Indeed, the move into the South China Sea has made a lot of people nervous, rather than winning friends and allies.
During the Cold War, the US could appeal to socio-political affinities with allies and clients (democracy, popular culture, or anti-communism). Unless you are an authoritarian regime, China has none of that. The Soviet Union had at least been able to install friendly regimes in Eastern Europe in the late '40s. |  |
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| Given the 48% of Remainers out there on 15:53 - Sep 27 with 731 views | chicoazul |
Because Remainer arguments always boil down to Daddy Knows Best. Cummings says that any strong Remain party would immediately shoot itself in the foot by having AC Grayling Gary Lineker and Blair front and centre. He’s right. |  |
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| Given the 48% of Remainers out there on 15:56 - Sep 27 with 710 views | MerseyBlue |
I'm sure we will see some sort of rise of a rejoin party nearer to the next election. Should such a party gain a mandate, it will still be a painful, arduous process to try to rejoin. We would go back to Europe with our tail between our legs, be made to jump through several hoops, only to be offered a significantly worse deal than the one we tore up.
I can't see enough brexiteers being willing to admit they had got it that wrong.
While I would very much like to turn back time, the situation we find ourselves in now is our own fault, so unless the country collectively grows some braincells and learns how to accept when they are wrong, we're going to have to lie in the mess we made in our bed as a dirty protest. |  |
| "Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." | | Poll: | Who will be the winner? |
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| Given the 48% of Remainers out there on 16:07 - Sep 27 with 684 views | bluelagos |
| Given the 48% of Remainers out there on 15:56 - Sep 27 by MerseyBlue |
I'm sure we will see some sort of rise of a rejoin party nearer to the next election. Should such a party gain a mandate, it will still be a painful, arduous process to try to rejoin. We would go back to Europe with our tail between our legs, be made to jump through several hoops, only to be offered a significantly worse deal than the one we tore up.
I can't see enough brexiteers being willing to admit they had got it that wrong.
While I would very much like to turn back time, the situation we find ourselves in now is our own fault, so unless the country collectively grows some braincells and learns how to accept when they are wrong, we're going to have to lie in the mess we made in our bed as a dirty protest. |
Funnily enough Gina Miller was reported today as to be behind a new one. Not launched just yet but seemingly on the way. |  |
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| Given the 48% of Remainers out there on 16:15 - Sep 27 with 678 views | Swansea_Blue |
The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster should stand. After everything we've been through in recent years, I think we've earnt that beer volcano and stripper factory. |  |
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| Given the 48% of Remainers out there on 16:19 - Sep 27 with 667 views | MerseyBlue |
| Given the 48% of Remainers out there on 16:07 - Sep 27 by bluelagos |
Funnily enough Gina Miller was reported today as to be behind a new one. Not launched just yet but seemingly on the way. |
That's interesting, setting out her stall so far away from an election indicates that she intends to stick around for some time rather than be a flash in the pan - I'll try to keep my eye on how True and Fair develops | |
| "Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." | | Poll: | Who will be the winner? |
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| Given the 48% of Remainers out there on 16:21 - Sep 27 with 658 views | Guthrum |
| Given the 48% of Remainers out there on 15:23 - Sep 27 by J2BLUE |
Controversial but let me lay it out there.
Do people really care that much? People will reply angrily and say of course they do but do they really? You can see it on here. There are some who are genuinely pained by leaving and there are some who seem to get huge pleasure from looking down on leavers and would rather be able to keep doing it than see it reversed.
Another point which will go down like a lead balloon is that a lot of people seemed to be completely indifferent to the EU until the day after the vote when they were told their futures had been stolen and they should be very upset. I'm not convinced Brexit is THE issue for many people. The idea that one party could mobilise anywhere near 48% based on Brexit is just delusional. You can say people never had a reason to be angry because we were in but where was this fire in the build up to the vote? Where were the young people demanding their future be secured with a remain vote?
I'm working so i'll try and reply to any constructive points. I don't think Brexit is as big an issue as people are making out or this board makes it out to be for most people. There's probably 10-20% at either extreme and then the 60-80% in the middle who will continue to go about their lives and not be that interested.
Oh and yes I voted leave. I am not trying to twist things to make that less of a mistake. I own it. Think about what i've said about not from your perspective but from wider society. Could a new party really run on a re-join manifesto and gain the votes of anywhere near 48% of people who voted in the referendum and are eligible to vote again? |
Friend of mine ran the remain campaign in his local town (helped by his MP, a pro- EU Tory). He was somewhat peeved by the number of people who suddenly came out of the woodwork after the vote, furiously wanting to block Brexit. He rather wished they'd shown that enthusiasm before the event. | |
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| Given the 48% of Remainers out there on 16:32 - Sep 27 with 620 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Given the 48% of Remainers out there on 15:53 - Sep 27 by chicoazul |
Because Remainer arguments always boil down to Daddy Knows Best. Cummings says that any strong Remain party would immediately shoot itself in the foot by having AC Grayling Gary Lineker and Blair front and centre. He’s right. |
Has the petrol/ diesel fiasco these past few days not taught you anything.
There is no cure for stupid. |  |
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| Given the 48% of Remainers out there on 16:33 - Sep 27 with 619 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Given the 48% of Remainers out there on 15:15 - Sep 27 by itfcjoe |
It's true though - look how well it went for the LDs at the least general election.
People want parties who look forwards, and not backwards - as frustrating as it is, Brexit is done, and whilst we'll be living with the consequence of it forever (conveniently hidden by Covid for the chancers at the top of Govt), there is no appetite for a major party to campaign to 'rejoin' |
There is a possible path to a Coalition if Lib Dems can convince "One Nation" Tory voters to vote Lib Dem across the South, and Labour can motivate the North and hold their metropolitan bases. Tricky for Labour to be the party of multiculturalism in London and also win back parts of the formerly Red Wall, though. |  | | |
| Given the 48% of Remainers out there on 16:35 - Sep 27 with 618 views | chicoazul |
| Given the 48% of Remainers out there on 16:32 - Sep 27 by Pinewoodblue |
Has the petrol/ diesel fiasco these past few days not taught you anything.
There is no cure for stupid. |
An eloquent and accurate reflection of my point. | |
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| Given the 48% of Remainers out there on 16:47 - Sep 27 with 595 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Given the 48% of Remainers out there on 15:53 - Sep 27 by chicoazul |
Because Remainer arguments always boil down to Daddy Knows Best. Cummings says that any strong Remain party would immediately shoot itself in the foot by having AC Grayling Gary Lineker and Blair front and centre. He’s right. |
Remainer arguments before the referendum were badly formed - all the benefits of being in the EU were so baked into our economy that they were basically taken for granted and any articulation of those benefits to refute leavers' arguments would always be difficult - hence the reversion to the "Project Fear" view. Now we have truly left and all those benefits have been removed from economy, at a stroke, we can see more clearly what we've lost. That said, a rejoin movement will never succeed - we need to get as many benefits back as we can without actually rejoining, which we should be able to do over a period of a few years, though the recent visa shambles shows we still have a very long way to go.... |  |
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| Given the 48% of Remainers out there on 17:18 - Sep 27 with 565 views | Parsley |
There's been a few comments that there isn't enough interest to rejoin, which is probably true, but frustrating because there was basically no interest in having a referendum to leave before it happened.
In principle I'm up for rejoining but I don't think that remain and rejoin are the same argument. It's a lot harder to convince people that rejoining a system in a slightly worse position than we had previously would be a good thing. |  | | |
| Given the 48% of Remainers out there on 20:01 - Sep 27 with 489 views | The_Last_Baron |
Most of the 48% aren't fanatics. I would say you have a hardcore 15-20% who would put it at the top of their day's thinking. The rest have moved on and have bigger things to concern them. |  |
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| Given the 48% of Remainers out there on 20:13 - Sep 27 with 482 views | WeWereZombies |
| Given the 48% of Remainers out there on 15:51 - Sep 27 by Guthrum |
I'm not convinced that China ever will become 'dominant' in the same way as the USA after the War, or Britain in the 19th century. Indeed, they may be approaching peak power now.
With an economy so dependent upon selling cr@p to foreigners, how do they sustain the growth necessary to continue building power? The US in the '40s, '50s and '60s had a large and wealthy domestic market. The UK half a century earlier had a captive export market in the Empire. China has neither. Their investments in places like Africa cost money and, at best, only provide discount raw materials.
The Evergrande crisis demonstrates thst the Chinese economy contains some of the same structural fragilities as the West.
Places like Europe and the UK are not dependent upon China or its arms supplies for defence. No leverage there. Indeed, the move into the South China Sea has made a lot of people nervous, rather than winning friends and allies.
During the Cold War, the US could appeal to socio-political affinities with allies and clients (democracy, popular culture, or anti-communism). Unless you are an authoritarian regime, China has none of that. The Soviet Union had at least been able to install friendly regimes in Eastern Europe in the late '40s. |
Time will tell but I am with you on the view that China is nearing or already at the peak of its power. As well as the factors you have mentioned there is just not the room for dominance that Britain and Spain shared in the Seventeenth and early Eighteenth centuries, or Britain and France in the Nineteenth century, or that was shared by the United States and the Soviet Union in the middle of the Twentieth century. Now China has to compete with Russia which is still the largest state grouping by land area, the United States which is running out of steam but has considerable inertia and the European Union which remains the biggest single market for goods and services i.e. the three other major players have various reasons to keep Europe sweet, whether it be for Russia to pipe in gas, China to offload product or the United States to play war games with.
For all of China's might in terms of population it is still the new kid at school reliant on someone else to invite it in to games. And that huge population is also a millstone around its neck, I don't think you are completely correct in saying China does not have a large and wealthy domestic market. I haven't been there yet but one thing that does strike me when I travel overseas is how countries like Ethiopia and Jordan have a well developed and expanding middle class, often as a result of improved education and healthcare. There must be an element of this in China and it is a powerful new social element that the Politburo must appease. One of the reasons for 'Belt and Road' is to suck raw materials and food out of Africa to keep the new middle class in China fed and occupied, also to have somewhere to ship out an underclass who are seen as undesirable and law breaking to.
The final thing I would add to underline the problems that China will have establishing any dominance is to point out that a number of nations around the World are also becoming more expansionist - Jim O'Neill's BRICS and MINTs for a start. China won't get crowded out but might just find itself in a Tottenham or Manchester United position, once upon a time it was real contender but now just one of the pack. [Post edited 27 Sep 2021 23:16]
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| Given the 48% of Remainers out there on 20:43 - Sep 27 with 461 views | Guthrum |
| Given the 48% of Remainers out there on 20:13 - Sep 27 by WeWereZombies |
Time will tell but I am with you on the view that China is nearing or already at the peak of its power. As well as the factors you have mentioned there is just not the room for dominance that Britain and Spain shared in the Seventeenth and early Eighteenth centuries, or Britain and France in the Nineteenth century, or that was shared by the United States and the Soviet Union in the middle of the Twentieth century. Now China has to compete with Russia which is still the largest state grouping by land area, the United States which is running out of steam but has considerable inertia and the European Union which remains the biggest single market for goods and services i.e. the three other major players have various reasons to keep Europe sweet, whether it be for Russia to pipe in gas, China to offload product or the United States to play war games with.
For all of China's might in terms of population it is still the new kid at school reliant on someone else to invite it in to games. And that huge population is also a millstone around its neck, I don't think you are completely correct in saying China does not have a large and wealthy domestic market. I haven't been there yet but one thing that does strike me when I travel overseas is how countries like Ethiopia and Jordan have a well developed and expanding middle class, often as a result of improved education and healthcare. There must be an element of this in China and it is a powerful new social element that the Politburo must appease. One of the reasons for 'Belt and Road' is to suck raw materials and food out of Africa to keep the new middle class in China fed and occupied, also to have somewhere to ship out an underclass who are seen as undesirable and law breaking to.
The final thing I would add to underline the problems that China will have establishing any dominance is to point out that a number of nations around the World are also becoming more expansionist - Jim O'Neill's BRICS and MINTs for a start. China won't get crowded out but might just find itself in a Tottenham or Manchester United position, once upon a time it was real contender but now just one of the pack. [Post edited 27 Sep 2021 23:16]
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What I was thinking of in the post-War USA was that not just the middle class, but the working class were buying cars, fridges and TVs. That massively expands the domestic consumer base.
I don't get the impression China is in that position, or that worker wages have climbed to a level where it is possible for them to sustain the economy. Indeed, the burgeoning class of billionaires (which Xi Jinping is seeking to clamp down upon) suggests that a large part of the wealth is being directed into a few pockets.
On your geopolitical point, it helps when expanding to have a vacancy to step into - even if you have to make it yourself. For example, the British in India benefitted from the decline of the Mughal Empire, the Spanish managed to create a power vacuum in the Americas by collapsing the Aztec and Inca Empires (the Mound Builders in the north had already gone), the exhaustion of Europe after two World Wars made space for both the USA and USSR, the Muslim expansion out of Arabia was assisted by the Byzantines and Sassinid Persians having just fought each other to their knees - and so on. | |
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| Given the 48% of Remainers out there on 23:11 - Sep 27 with 410 views | monytowbray |
| Given the 48% of Remainers out there on 15:51 - Sep 27 by Guthrum |
I'm not convinced that China ever will become 'dominant' in the same way as the USA after the War, or Britain in the 19th century. Indeed, they may be approaching peak power now.
With an economy so dependent upon selling cr@p to foreigners, how do they sustain the growth necessary to continue building power? The US in the '40s, '50s and '60s had a large and wealthy domestic market. The UK half a century earlier had a captive export market in the Empire. China has neither. Their investments in places like Africa cost money and, at best, only provide discount raw materials.
The Evergrande crisis demonstrates thst the Chinese economy contains some of the same structural fragilities as the West.
Places like Europe and the UK are not dependent upon China or its arms supplies for defence. No leverage there. Indeed, the move into the South China Sea has made a lot of people nervous, rather than winning friends and allies.
During the Cold War, the US could appeal to socio-political affinities with allies and clients (democracy, popular culture, or anti-communism). Unless you are an authoritarian regime, China has none of that. The Soviet Union had at least been able to install friendly regimes in Eastern Europe in the late '40s. |
You have a way of making me fear the future less Guth, hope to catch you at a game soon.
I mean all governments are s**ts but the CCP are S**TS. |  |
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| Given the 48% of Remainers out there on 23:13 - Sep 27 with 406 views | Bluedicea |
| Given the 48% of Remainers out there on 15:51 - Sep 27 by Guthrum |
I'm not convinced that China ever will become 'dominant' in the same way as the USA after the War, or Britain in the 19th century. Indeed, they may be approaching peak power now.
With an economy so dependent upon selling cr@p to foreigners, how do they sustain the growth necessary to continue building power? The US in the '40s, '50s and '60s had a large and wealthy domestic market. The UK half a century earlier had a captive export market in the Empire. China has neither. Their investments in places like Africa cost money and, at best, only provide discount raw materials.
The Evergrande crisis demonstrates thst the Chinese economy contains some of the same structural fragilities as the West.
Places like Europe and the UK are not dependent upon China or its arms supplies for defence. No leverage there. Indeed, the move into the South China Sea has made a lot of people nervous, rather than winning friends and allies.
During the Cold War, the US could appeal to socio-political affinities with allies and clients (democracy, popular culture, or anti-communism). Unless you are an authoritarian regime, China has none of that. The Soviet Union had at least been able to install friendly regimes in Eastern Europe in the late '40s. |
China is looking more and more like it's in massive trouble.
They have 89 million more houses and apartments than can be filled by the population, whole cities and retail complexes that are just empty. Waiting until there are enough people who are rich enough to move in.
Ghost cities can take up to 25 years from finish of construction to actually having a 90% occupancy. It's all down to the law, property developers aren't allowed to sit on land, once they have purchased it, construction has to start. |  |
| What is the use of knowing about everything else, when you do not yet know who you are. |
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