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Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out 07:49 - Oct 1 with 7348 viewsDanTheMan

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/58755062

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Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 14:42 - Oct 1 with 889 viewsMarshalls_Mullet

Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 13:58 - Oct 1 by itfcjoe

In the test game they played, it was said the only time it was really an issue was for corners, which makes sense really


It takes a massive element / skill out of the game.

But I guess that's the choice / balance that may need making at some point.


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Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 14:43 - Oct 1 with 895 viewsitfcjoe

Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 14:31 - Oct 1 by Darth_Koont

Short corners are more productive anyway, although often that’s changing the angle of the eventual cross.

And if you can’t flight the ball in anymore then bring the corner to the corner of the box and see players trying to find a yard of space instead for an actual pass. Or something ...

Taking away one aspect of the game, which is occasionally but rarely satisfying, means you can perhaps replace it with more of the better stuff anyway.

Anyway, ultimately it’s about long-term health so people will just have to lump it, excuse the pun.


Interesting piece/proposal in Athletic by Michael Cox about it:

https://theathletic.com/2755968/2021/08/09/cox-is-heading-absolutely-necessary-t

74% of headers in the game are between the boxes, just banning those would not really do a huge amount to change the game in the key moments



A large proportion of headers made outside the penalty areas are relatively meaningless. They’re simply contesting 50-50 balls in the air, which lead to 50-50 balls on the ground, and while there’s something to admire about an aerially dominant centre-back or a target-man capable of clever flick-ons, it’s less certain that these moments are necessary in football.

It is also that type of header that surely causes the most damage. Anyone who has played football at any level knows there’s a world of difference in the feeling between a flicked near-post header as a striker, and being a centre-back and getting underneath one of those horrible, 60-yard looping drop kicks from the opposition goalkeeper that accelerate as they plummet back to Earth.

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Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 14:45 - Oct 1 with 870 viewsGarv

Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 14:31 - Oct 1 by Darth_Koont

Short corners are more productive anyway, although often that’s changing the angle of the eventual cross.

And if you can’t flight the ball in anymore then bring the corner to the corner of the box and see players trying to find a yard of space instead for an actual pass. Or something ...

Taking away one aspect of the game, which is occasionally but rarely satisfying, means you can perhaps replace it with more of the better stuff anyway.

Anyway, ultimately it’s about long-term health so people will just have to lump it, excuse the pun.


Out of interest, how have you come to the view that short corners are more effective?

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Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 14:45 - Oct 1 with 869 viewsMarshalls_Mullet

Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 14:43 - Oct 1 by itfcjoe

Interesting piece/proposal in Athletic by Michael Cox about it:

https://theathletic.com/2755968/2021/08/09/cox-is-heading-absolutely-necessary-t

74% of headers in the game are between the boxes, just banning those would not really do a huge amount to change the game in the key moments



A large proportion of headers made outside the penalty areas are relatively meaningless. They’re simply contesting 50-50 balls in the air, which lead to 50-50 balls on the ground, and while there’s something to admire about an aerially dominant centre-back or a target-man capable of clever flick-ons, it’s less certain that these moments are necessary in football.

It is also that type of header that surely causes the most damage. Anyone who has played football at any level knows there’s a world of difference in the feeling between a flicked near-post header as a striker, and being a centre-back and getting underneath one of those horrible, 60-yard looping drop kicks from the opposition goalkeeper that accelerate as they plummet back to Earth.


I think thats an interesting point.

I could be on board with only being able to head the ball in the box.

I suspect that traditionally the most harmful headers are those from trying to win the ball from a massive goal kick.

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Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 14:50 - Oct 1 with 853 viewsJ2BLUE

Can't some sort of technology save us here? Some sort of headgear which absorbs the blow?

This would change so many aspects of the game but it would soon adapt. Can you see some of the long ball managers switching to a passing game because of this? They'll just go and grab the tallest players, carry on lumping it and go up for 'chests' rather than headers.

In front of goal I suspect we would see less creative in the moment play and more practiced routines from the lesser teams.

Ideally it doesn't happen but if it's needed for player safety then so be it.

Truly impaired.
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Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 14:53 - Oct 1 with 844 viewsitfcjoe

Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 14:50 - Oct 1 by J2BLUE

Can't some sort of technology save us here? Some sort of headgear which absorbs the blow?

This would change so many aspects of the game but it would soon adapt. Can you see some of the long ball managers switching to a passing game because of this? They'll just go and grab the tallest players, carry on lumping it and go up for 'chests' rather than headers.

In front of goal I suspect we would see less creative in the moment play and more practiced routines from the lesser teams.

Ideally it doesn't happen but if it's needed for player safety then so be it.


Absorbing the blow in a way makes things worse, because the brain still rattles but people feel more protected - see the NFL

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I think this post needs elevating... on 14:55 - Oct 1 with 846 viewsMarshalls_Mullet

...I'm against a blanket ban on heading.

But changing the rule to only allow heading in the box is a good compromise. Arguably cuts out 75% of headers, and the most dangerous ones fall within that 75%.

Click on the post to see the diagram.

Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out by itfcjoe 1 Oct 2021 14:43
Interesting piece/proposal in Athletic by Michael Cox about it:

https://theathletic.com/2755968/2021/08/09/cox-is-heading-absolutely-necessary-to-the-game-of-football/

74% of headers in the game are between the boxes, just banning those would not really do a huge amount to change the game in the key moments

https://cdn.theathletic.com/app/uploads/2021/08/09044641/header_zones-1-2048x1707.png

A large proportion of headers made outside the penalty areas are relatively meaningless. They’re simply contesting 50-50 balls in the air, which lead to 50-50 balls on the ground, and while there’s something to admire about an aerially dominant centre-back or a target-man capable of clever flick-ons, it’s less certain that these moments are necessary in football.

It is also that type of header that surely causes the most damage. Anyone who has played football at any level knows there’s a world of difference in the feeling between a flicked near-post header as a striker, and being a centre-back and getting underneath one of those horrible, 60-yard looping drop kicks from the opposition goalkeeper that accelerate as they plummet back to Earth.

[Post edited 1 Oct 2021 14:56]

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Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 14:55 - Oct 1 with 838 viewsitfcjoe

Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 14:41 - Oct 1 by Keaneish

That’s an horrendous interpretation of my post on several fronts.

The average life expectancy for a male adult in the UK is 80 years old. Jack Charlton died aged 85 after living a long and happy life with enormous success making a name for himself by heading the ball. His wife refused to condemn football as the reason for his ailment in later years.

In your new world, Jack Charlton may not have become the player he was. I said in my post we should generate awareness and look at technology to improve our knowledge - we should not change the rules. This isn’t a denial, it’s a different approach. If we remove heading from football, Burgess wouldn’t be in the starting line-up tomorrow.

Life is about experience, not about preservation and this may be the fundamental difference between views on here. Sport carries physical risks, careers are short and injury can be life changing and in my view, it should be played at the individuals risk.


What about all the other footballers, like Eric Gates' brother Bill, who gave their whole life to football but weren't World Cup winners and just had to suffer without the support that the very top pros were able to get?

I'd rather take the view of the scientists looking into this than that of Jack Charlton's wife without sounding harsh.

Does it really matter if Cameron Burgess isn't in the starting line up tomorrow? The game will adapt over time and like all players they will have to adapt or not make it - this isn't going to come in overnight

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Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 15:03 - Oct 1 with 817 viewsN2_Blue

Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 10:08 - Oct 1 by itfcjoe

Anyone who doesn’t think this will ultimately happen just can’t read the room - it’s nailed on and in the future people will not be able to believe we used to head it
[Post edited 1 Oct 2021 10:35]


I'm not so sure.

It's fundamentally going to create a different game. You can't compare this to rule changes such as backpasses.

Think of the players who without being able to ability to head wouldn't even make it as professional footballers.

Yes there are risks and it should be looked at but maybe it will be a case of disclaimers being signed so that authorities cannot face legal action. Players can then make a choice whether to take the risk or not.

Ultimately if it does change you could see a complete breakaway federation, one that does have heading.

It would happen. Plenty of sports such as darts have more than one federation that successfully compete together, one will the poorer relation but it will give players a choice and not exclude those for whom heading is a huge part of their game. I also know which version of football i would follow if the two existed.

It will happen because thing of the money it would still make and i reckon more layers would be willing to accept to take the risk of heading a ball as opposed to those that wouldn't

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Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 15:06 - Oct 1 with 807 viewsKeaneish

Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 14:55 - Oct 1 by itfcjoe

What about all the other footballers, like Eric Gates' brother Bill, who gave their whole life to football but weren't World Cup winners and just had to suffer without the support that the very top pros were able to get?

I'd rather take the view of the scientists looking into this than that of Jack Charlton's wife without sounding harsh.

Does it really matter if Cameron Burgess isn't in the starting line up tomorrow? The game will adapt over time and like all players they will have to adapt or not make it - this isn't going to come in overnight


If you follow the science for long enough, there will be no football. Back injury, ligament damage, depression etc etc. Where does it stop? Boxing would cease to be a sport as would football, in time. Why does football need to ‘evolve’? Leave the game alone.

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Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 15:07 - Oct 1 with 808 viewsDarth_Koont

Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 14:45 - Oct 1 by Garv

Out of interest, how have you come to the view that short corners are more effective?


Because they are statistically. And inswinging corners are better than outswinging corners.

I’ll see if I can find where I read the research/stats – it was pretty recent anyway.

Pronouns: He/Him

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Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 15:10 - Oct 1 with 795 viewsN2_Blue

Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 11:49 - Oct 1 by itfcjoe

There's vested interest in people keeping those sports running - as without the contact there is no sport. It's the same with NFL, where overwhelmingly the risk outweigh the benefits for the vast majority in the game.

Without heading football is still football, it will still be the most simple and popular game in the world - that's the beauty of it.


Couldn't disagree more.

I've watched youth football without heading, it's very bland. It changes so much and also influences match situations, like those last few minutes when everything is being thrown at the box in the last minute. Heading is an art. Think of what Gary Speed would have been without heading.

If heading got outlawed a breakaway federation would form and players can sign disclaimers. You can't make it illegal, otherwise that's the end of boxing and sports far more dangerous than heading a football.

Players will just have a choice to make and maybe a version of football will exist without heading but would effectively be a different sport.

It would be like Rugby Union and rugby league. Two very different versions of the same sport. One is crap (league) and one is great. Not difficult to guess which version of football will be the crap one and which one will be more popular and have the worlds best players.

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Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 15:11 - Oct 1 with 797 viewsDarth_Koont

Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 14:43 - Oct 1 by itfcjoe

Interesting piece/proposal in Athletic by Michael Cox about it:

https://theathletic.com/2755968/2021/08/09/cox-is-heading-absolutely-necessary-t

74% of headers in the game are between the boxes, just banning those would not really do a huge amount to change the game in the key moments



A large proportion of headers made outside the penalty areas are relatively meaningless. They’re simply contesting 50-50 balls in the air, which lead to 50-50 balls on the ground, and while there’s something to admire about an aerially dominant centre-back or a target-man capable of clever flick-ons, it’s less certain that these moments are necessary in football.

It is also that type of header that surely causes the most damage. Anyone who has played football at any level knows there’s a world of difference in the feeling between a flicked near-post header as a striker, and being a centre-back and getting underneath one of those horrible, 60-yard looping drop kicks from the opposition goalkeeper that accelerate as they plummet back to Earth.


Yeah, that wouldn’t be too much of a loss.

I’d imagine defenders would need to be better footballers too or at least not rely on being big enough and tall enough to pretty much win headers all the time.

Total football beckons!

Pronouns: He/Him

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Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 15:13 - Oct 1 with 788 viewsitfcjoe

Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 15:06 - Oct 1 by Keaneish

If you follow the science for long enough, there will be no football. Back injury, ligament damage, depression etc etc. Where does it stop? Boxing would cease to be a sport as would football, in time. Why does football need to ‘evolve’? Leave the game alone.


Brain injuries are rightfully taken more seriously than back injuries or ligament damage.

There is a good argument boxing shouldn't be a sport any more. Why did we evolve from the age of the gladiator where people would die in the colosseum?

Things evolve all the time, football has evolved countless times and will continue to do so, and certain sports can't evolve far enough and probably shouldn't exist.

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Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 15:17 - Oct 1 with 776 viewsitfcjoe

Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 15:10 - Oct 1 by N2_Blue

Couldn't disagree more.

I've watched youth football without heading, it's very bland. It changes so much and also influences match situations, like those last few minutes when everything is being thrown at the box in the last minute. Heading is an art. Think of what Gary Speed would have been without heading.

If heading got outlawed a breakaway federation would form and players can sign disclaimers. You can't make it illegal, otherwise that's the end of boxing and sports far more dangerous than heading a football.

Players will just have a choice to make and maybe a version of football will exist without heading but would effectively be a different sport.

It would be like Rugby Union and rugby league. Two very different versions of the same sport. One is crap (league) and one is great. Not difficult to guess which version of football will be the crap one and which one will be more popular and have the worlds best players.


Signing disclaimers is such a pathetic way out - getting kids to sign disclaimers for things that won't effect them and they can't possibly udnerstand 50 years in the future is not a get out of jail free card and won't stop them being sued etc.

And of course you can make it illegal, who would do thid breakaway? The top clubs int he world wouldn't be intterested because they play the game on the floor in the most part - if Tony Pulis and Big Sam want to lead a breakaway then so be it. DO you think Messi, Mbappe, Neymar and the likes are going to go with the sport where heading is outlawed? The worlds best players are, and always have been, the best technical players

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Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 15:21 - Oct 1 with 763 viewsN2_Blue

Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 15:10 - Oct 1 by N2_Blue

Couldn't disagree more.

I've watched youth football without heading, it's very bland. It changes so much and also influences match situations, like those last few minutes when everything is being thrown at the box in the last minute. Heading is an art. Think of what Gary Speed would have been without heading.

If heading got outlawed a breakaway federation would form and players can sign disclaimers. You can't make it illegal, otherwise that's the end of boxing and sports far more dangerous than heading a football.

Players will just have a choice to make and maybe a version of football will exist without heading but would effectively be a different sport.

It would be like Rugby Union and rugby league. Two very different versions of the same sport. One is crap (league) and one is great. Not difficult to guess which version of football will be the crap one and which one will be more popular and have the worlds best players.


And may I add I'm not missing the point about it being dangerous if it continues to be proven. However you can't compare todays era with that of the 60's etc. when balls weighed like a brick.

There are plenty of professions far more dangerous than football and where people are knowingly exposed to all sorts of things that can make them ill...but they still choose to do them and and get compensated as a result. It is about minimizing risk and football should try to do that, but risk still exits in many industries and football will be no different.

However the research is welcomed and based on the evidence presented players will have the right to make a choice and for those that don't want to take the risk maybe a different version of football will co-exist that doesn't involve heading. However i believe there will always be a version of football that involves heading for at least the next 100 years...beyond that who's knows, we may all be underwater or boiling by then!

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Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 15:22 - Oct 1 with 761 viewsN2_Blue

Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 15:06 - Oct 1 by Keaneish

If you follow the science for long enough, there will be no football. Back injury, ligament damage, depression etc etc. Where does it stop? Boxing would cease to be a sport as would football, in time. Why does football need to ‘evolve’? Leave the game alone.


Totally agree, everything has an element of risk. There is more risk travelling to play the game than there is playing it i expect

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Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 15:23 - Oct 1 with 759 viewsitfcjoe

Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 15:21 - Oct 1 by N2_Blue

And may I add I'm not missing the point about it being dangerous if it continues to be proven. However you can't compare todays era with that of the 60's etc. when balls weighed like a brick.

There are plenty of professions far more dangerous than football and where people are knowingly exposed to all sorts of things that can make them ill...but they still choose to do them and and get compensated as a result. It is about minimizing risk and football should try to do that, but risk still exits in many industries and football will be no different.

However the research is welcomed and based on the evidence presented players will have the right to make a choice and for those that don't want to take the risk maybe a different version of football will co-exist that doesn't involve heading. However i believe there will always be a version of football that involves heading for at least the next 100 years...beyond that who's knows, we may all be underwater or boiling by then!


"It is about minimizing risk and football should try to do that"

Surely you can see that removing, or cutting down on heading, is just football doing this though?

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Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 15:26 - Oct 1 with 750 viewsKieran_Knows

Would be an interesting watch.

Would it also mean that the Prem top clubs just continue - on a bigger scale - sweeping up the best young talents available across the country (and globally) as more and more passing/pressing type football will be played at youth levels?
[Post edited 1 Oct 2021 15:27]

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Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 15:26 - Oct 1 with 749 viewsDanTheMan

Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 15:21 - Oct 1 by N2_Blue

And may I add I'm not missing the point about it being dangerous if it continues to be proven. However you can't compare todays era with that of the 60's etc. when balls weighed like a brick.

There are plenty of professions far more dangerous than football and where people are knowingly exposed to all sorts of things that can make them ill...but they still choose to do them and and get compensated as a result. It is about minimizing risk and football should try to do that, but risk still exits in many industries and football will be no different.

However the research is welcomed and based on the evidence presented players will have the right to make a choice and for those that don't want to take the risk maybe a different version of football will co-exist that doesn't involve heading. However i believe there will always be a version of football that involves heading for at least the next 100 years...beyond that who's knows, we may all be underwater or boiling by then!


I've seen the "heavier balls" thing quite a few times in this thread, and I don't think that's necessarily true.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/jul/22/footballers-could-be-at-greater

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/11/201112144044.htm

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Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 15:28 - Oct 1 with 740 viewsN2_Blue

Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 15:17 - Oct 1 by itfcjoe

Signing disclaimers is such a pathetic way out - getting kids to sign disclaimers for things that won't effect them and they can't possibly udnerstand 50 years in the future is not a get out of jail free card and won't stop them being sued etc.

And of course you can make it illegal, who would do thid breakaway? The top clubs int he world wouldn't be intterested because they play the game on the floor in the most part - if Tony Pulis and Big Sam want to lead a breakaway then so be it. DO you think Messi, Mbappe, Neymar and the likes are going to go with the sport where heading is outlawed? The worlds best players are, and always have been, the best technical players


But its not just down to the players, the bets players need to be paid so its also about the fans.

Would i rather spend my money on watching Messi, Neymar, Mbappe in a game without heading or Ronaldo, Gary Speed and Cameron Burgess in the game as it is now, I'd choose the game now thank you very much

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Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 15:32 - Oct 1 with 729 viewsN2_Blue

Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 15:23 - Oct 1 by itfcjoe

"It is about minimizing risk and football should try to do that"

Surely you can see that removing, or cutting down on heading, is just football doing this though?


Yes cutting down is being done as it's limited in training now. You said it's inevitable that football will move to a game without heading eventually. I disagree. I think we'll look at technology, protection and/or cutting down.. But i don't believe adult professional football will remove heading from a 90 minute game, you are effectively creating a different sport and players will need to choose which version they would rather play if we go down that route.

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Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 15:38 - Oct 1 with 724 viewsN2_Blue

Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 15:26 - Oct 1 by DanTheMan

I've seen the "heavier balls" thing quite a few times in this thread, and I don't think that's necessarily true.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/jul/22/footballers-could-be-at-greater

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/11/201112144044.htm


Well if that's the case, which needs to be proven i still think technology may be able to play a part. Maybe a slower ball can be made or something like that.

Obviously that completely changes the game too, but id still rather watch the version with heading than some bland tippy tappy version.

Maybe I'm in a minority but watching Barcelona and Man city can be dull as sometimes. The best football is varied in my opinion.

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Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 15:38 - Oct 1 with 722 viewsitfcjoe

Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 15:28 - Oct 1 by N2_Blue

But its not just down to the players, the bets players need to be paid so its also about the fans.

Would i rather spend my money on watching Messi, Neymar, Mbappe in a game without heading or Ronaldo, Gary Speed and Cameron Burgess in the game as it is now, I'd choose the game now thank you very much


I bet people used to say this about the pass back rule when that came in.

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Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 15:44 - Oct 1 with 712 viewsN2_Blue

Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 15:38 - Oct 1 by itfcjoe

I bet people used to say this about the pass back rule when that came in.


I've already said you can't compare this to the backpass rule. This was a rule that improved the game as a spectacle and even if people didn't agree it's not a rule that fundamentally effects the whole game. Removing heading is not comparable. It complete changes the whole game.

There are players that earn tens of thousands a week that probably would no longer be employable if you removed that element from their game. That's how much it is changing things. Backpass didn't have that impact so not comparable.

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