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Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 15:44 - Oct 1 by N2_Blue
I've already said you can't compare this to the backpass rule. This was a rule that improved the game as a spectacle and even if people didn't agree it's not a rule that fundamentally effects the whole game. Removing heading is not comparable. It complete changes the whole game.
There are players that earn tens of thousands a week that probably would no longer be employable if you removed that element from their game. That's how much it is changing things. Backpass didn't have that impact so not comparable.
I think you can, removal of that rule was the most fundamental change of the rules since the offside rule and has totally changed the game. There were plenty of goalkeepers who basically became unemployable at the time.
I bet at that time people didn't think removing that rule would greatly improve football as a spectacle.
Nothing is going to happen overnight with this, but when it gets banned in kids football, which it will, it's only natural that it will end up banned, or heavily reduced in senior football.
74% of headers in the game are between the boxes, just banning those would not really do a huge amount to change the game in the key moments
A large proportion of headers made outside the penalty areas are relatively meaningless. They’re simply contesting 50-50 balls in the air, which lead to 50-50 balls on the ground, and while there’s something to admire about an aerially dominant centre-back or a target-man capable of clever flick-ons, it’s less certain that these moments are necessary in football.
It is also that type of header that surely causes the most damage. Anyone who has played football at any level knows there’s a world of difference in the feeling between a flicked near-post header as a striker, and being a centre-back and getting underneath one of those horrible, 60-yard looping drop kicks from the opposition goalkeeper that accelerate as they plummet back to Earth.
I think this could be a very sensible first step and like you say, not really affect the elements of heading that would be missed.
Would also force some centre backs to improve their ball-playing skills!
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Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 16:06 - Oct 1 with 1050 views
Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 15:48 - Oct 1 by itfcjoe
I think you can, removal of that rule was the most fundamental change of the rules since the offside rule and has totally changed the game. There were plenty of goalkeepers who basically became unemployable at the time.
I bet at that time people didn't think removing that rule would greatly improve football as a spectacle.
Nothing is going to happen overnight with this, but when it gets banned in kids football, which it will, it's only natural that it will end up banned, or heavily reduced in senior football.
Well will politely agree to disagree with you Joe. I don't recall much opposition to the backpass rule change or people being that bothered. I can guarantee there will be a lot of noise about this, rightly or wrongly and i do agree health of players needs to be looked at.
But the first thing we need to establish is whether players in todays era are at risk of the dementia in the same way that players in the 60s were...and then how prevalent it is. There will always be risks and a balance needs to be found because i don't see the game being fundamentally changed if the risk is there but a small one. If the risk is great and a huge proportion of former players have dementia then i agree something may need to change but i still believe there will be a version of the game with heading for those that accept the risk.
It's a long way off because we probably need another generation of footballers to get to later stages of live before we can accurately say.
I mean an element of the population will unfortunately pick up dementia irrespective of heading a ball. I myself am more worried about the mercury fillings I had when i was a kid than from heading a ball but admit there is still not enough research and evidence as yet.
Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 16:00 - Oct 1 by Marshalls_Mullet
Likely to still result in a header?
It didn’t say. It was more about the effectiveness in creating chances/goals.
But certainly the option for a pass along the deck or low cross comes in when you play the ball short. It’s possibly the range of threats that means it’s more effective, whereas a cross from the corner flag is pretty much an aerial threat coming in from a fixed direction so easier to defend and limit chances on that alone.
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Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 19:19 - Oct 1 with 992 views
Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 14:55 - Oct 1 by itfcjoe
What about all the other footballers, like Eric Gates' brother Bill, who gave their whole life to football but weren't World Cup winners and just had to suffer without the support that the very top pros were able to get?
I'd rather take the view of the scientists looking into this than that of Jack Charlton's wife without sounding harsh.
Does it really matter if Cameron Burgess isn't in the starting line up tomorrow? The game will adapt over time and like all players they will have to adapt or not make it - this isn't going to come in overnight
Restricting heading to the penalty area seems the perfect solution for everyone.
That couple with banning heading from kids football upto the age of 15 surely reduces any risk massively!!
Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 15:13 - Oct 1 by itfcjoe
Brain injuries are rightfully taken more seriously than back injuries or ligament damage.
There is a good argument boxing shouldn't be a sport any more. Why did we evolve from the age of the gladiator where people would die in the colosseum?
Things evolve all the time, football has evolved countless times and will continue to do so, and certain sports can't evolve far enough and probably shouldn't exist.
Heading is a huge and skillful element of the game. Imagine this match without the headers;
As mentioned before, simply restrict headers to the penalty box.
Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 15:06 - Oct 1 by Keaneish
If you follow the science for long enough, there will be no football. Back injury, ligament damage, depression etc etc. Where does it stop? Boxing would cease to be a sport as would football, in time. Why does football need to ‘evolve’? Leave the game alone.
Agreed.
There is an assumption here that any change = evolution. That's not always the case.
There's alternative solutions to banning heading altogether.
Removing heading from the came removes a skill, removes goal scoring opportunities and detracts from the variation and spectacle.
Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 15:48 - Oct 1 by itfcjoe
I think you can, removal of that rule was the most fundamental change of the rules since the offside rule and has totally changed the game. There were plenty of goalkeepers who basically became unemployable at the time.
I bet at that time people didn't think removing that rule would greatly improve football as a spectacle.
Nothing is going to happen overnight with this, but when it gets banned in kids football, which it will, it's only natural that it will end up banned, or heavily reduced in senior football.
Have to say that's not a useful comparison.
Can you tell me a back pass that you remember from a match?
I could tell you some headers that I remember decades on.
Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 16:06 - Oct 1 by N2_Blue
Well will politely agree to disagree with you Joe. I don't recall much opposition to the backpass rule change or people being that bothered. I can guarantee there will be a lot of noise about this, rightly or wrongly and i do agree health of players needs to be looked at.
But the first thing we need to establish is whether players in todays era are at risk of the dementia in the same way that players in the 60s were...and then how prevalent it is. There will always be risks and a balance needs to be found because i don't see the game being fundamentally changed if the risk is there but a small one. If the risk is great and a huge proportion of former players have dementia then i agree something may need to change but i still believe there will be a version of the game with heading for those that accept the risk.
It's a long way off because we probably need another generation of footballers to get to later stages of live before we can accurately say.
I mean an element of the population will unfortunately pick up dementia irrespective of heading a ball. I myself am more worried about the mercury fillings I had when i was a kid than from heading a ball but admit there is still not enough research and evidence as yet.
I accept the link that shows an increased risk in dementia of ex footballers.
But every case of dementia in an ex player gets reported in the media as being down to football, which wont be the case every time.
It would require a world wide ban across FIFA etc. if only a few countries ban it, then it could become a very strange situation (for example, playing friendlies against an opposition in Europe that is fine with heading the ball and does it in their domestic competitions).
Frank Marshall
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Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 20:06 - Oct 1 with 969 views
Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 15:48 - Oct 1 by itfcjoe
I think you can, removal of that rule was the most fundamental change of the rules since the offside rule and has totally changed the game. There were plenty of goalkeepers who basically became unemployable at the time.
I bet at that time people didn't think removing that rule would greatly improve football as a spectacle.
Nothing is going to happen overnight with this, but when it gets banned in kids football, which it will, it's only natural that it will end up banned, or heavily reduced in senior football.
When Paul Lake and Bryan Robson swallowed their tongues we didn’t ban challenges, we made sure physios were better trained and the right medical staff were pitch side.
When Luc Nillis, Eduardo and a string of others either lost their careers or faced losing them, we didn’t ban tacking, we brought in a new rule which meant studs couldn’t be raised when tackling.
A plethora of players have suffered heart issues on the pitch but we haven’t banned running, instead we’ve brought in heart monitors and bunch of evaluations and diagnostics to pre-empt future events.
Banning heading because retired footballers in the twilight of their lives may suffer a neurological issue is so extreme it’s a little bewildering that its even being contemplated in my view. As per the above, there have to be better measures whether technical or technological than an outright ban.
Neil Ruddock used to wear a headband to head it further - can that be modified for protection? Cech wore a head guard for a long time as did Chivu and plenty of others - surely that’s a better solution than changing the rules…
Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 20:06 - Oct 1 by Keaneish
When Paul Lake and Bryan Robson swallowed their tongues we didn’t ban challenges, we made sure physios were better trained and the right medical staff were pitch side.
When Luc Nillis, Eduardo and a string of others either lost their careers or faced losing them, we didn’t ban tacking, we brought in a new rule which meant studs couldn’t be raised when tackling.
A plethora of players have suffered heart issues on the pitch but we haven’t banned running, instead we’ve brought in heart monitors and bunch of evaluations and diagnostics to pre-empt future events.
Banning heading because retired footballers in the twilight of their lives may suffer a neurological issue is so extreme it’s a little bewildering that its even being contemplated in my view. As per the above, there have to be better measures whether technical or technological than an outright ban.
Neil Ruddock used to wear a headband to head it further - can that be modified for protection? Cech wore a head guard for a long time as did Chivu and plenty of others - surely that’s a better solution than changing the rules…
You can’t protect the brain from this with padding.
It’s not the impact on the skull, it’s momentum within the skull.
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Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 20:14 - Oct 1 with 953 views
Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 20:06 - Oct 1 by Keaneish
When Paul Lake and Bryan Robson swallowed their tongues we didn’t ban challenges, we made sure physios were better trained and the right medical staff were pitch side.
When Luc Nillis, Eduardo and a string of others either lost their careers or faced losing them, we didn’t ban tacking, we brought in a new rule which meant studs couldn’t be raised when tackling.
A plethora of players have suffered heart issues on the pitch but we haven’t banned running, instead we’ve brought in heart monitors and bunch of evaluations and diagnostics to pre-empt future events.
Banning heading because retired footballers in the twilight of their lives may suffer a neurological issue is so extreme it’s a little bewildering that its even being contemplated in my view. As per the above, there have to be better measures whether technical or technological than an outright ban.
Neil Ruddock used to wear a headband to head it further - can that be modified for protection? Cech wore a head guard for a long time as did Chivu and plenty of others - surely that’s a better solution than changing the rules…
You can’t protect the brain from repetitive impacts, it’s as simple as that really.
Banging your head lots is bad, that is becoming more and more understood - comparing bad injuries on impacts to repetitive impacts misses the point somewhat. Wearing scrum hats or the like will protect you from fracturing your skull or the like, but doesn’t protect your brain from being rattled around
Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 13:13 - Oct 1 by Marshalls_Mullet
Without heading football is diminished as a spectacle.
Think of corners, attacking free kicks and crosses without the option of a headed goal.
Think a first step would be to prevent long high balls from goalkeepers - with ball tracking technology it would be easy enough (at top levels of the game) to say if the ball goes above e.g. 5m it's an automatic indirect freekick to the other team - the game is much more exciting when teams try to play it out from the back anyway.
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Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 20:41 - Oct 1 with 915 views
Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 20:14 - Oct 1 by itfcjoe
You can’t protect the brain from repetitive impacts, it’s as simple as that really.
Banging your head lots is bad, that is becoming more and more understood - comparing bad injuries on impacts to repetitive impacts misses the point somewhat. Wearing scrum hats or the like will protect you from fracturing your skull or the like, but doesn’t protect your brain from being rattled around
[Post edited 1 Oct 2021 20:16]
We’ll have to ban the ball being controlled at chest height next to prevent flailing arms catching the head and causing concussion. I’ve been knocked out three times on the pitch, all innocuous from collisions of elbows or shoulders off the ball. They may well have bigger long term damage than the heading I’ve done or the blows taken during sparring sessions in the ring.
Sponge ball and shoulder pads it is. Problem solved.
Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 20:36 - Oct 1 by gordon
Think a first step would be to prevent long high balls from goalkeepers - with ball tracking technology it would be easy enough (at top levels of the game) to say if the ball goes above e.g. 5m it's an automatic indirect freekick to the other team - the game is much more exciting when teams try to play it out from the back anyway.
Just no...this is ridiculous.
You are basically also making the skill that Beckham and Gerard had in utilizing a cross-field ball.
Building from the back at times is good when trying to encourage a team to press further up the pitch rather than sit deep. But to do this everytime can really get monotonous.
The best teams and most exciting teams have variation, if one particular strategy, style is adopted all of the time it would become very bland in my opinion.
Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 20:44 - Oct 1 by N2_Blue
Just no...this is ridiculous.
You are basically also making the skill that Beckham and Gerard had in utilizing a cross-field ball.
Building from the back at times is good when trying to encourage a team to press further up the pitch rather than sit deep. But to do this everytime can really get monotonous.
The best teams and most exciting teams have variation, if one particular strategy, style is adopted all of the time it would become very bland in my opinion.
Maybe yeah - think the problem would be that if heading outside the box (for example) were banned, then really high balls would be difficult to defend against. But maybe 5m is too low, sure.
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Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 21:14 - Oct 1 with 891 views
Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 08:35 - Oct 1 by Keaneish
It’s the most ridiculous idea ever proposed - it’ll kill the game. I know there was a thread some time back about this and a few were in favour of it. I can’t see how the game would ever be the same if it were introduced.
Yeah, I periodically put out threads and surveys to see where people's opinions lay.
My personal opinion is that the change in balls won't change the damage caused by the repetitive heading of the ball.
I never liked heading the ball as a kid and don't really see the need to it in the professional game.
From the previous threads, I'm very much in the minority, as you suggest.
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Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 21:14 - Oct 1 by Kropotkin123
Yeah, I periodically put out threads and surveys to see where people's opinions lay.
My personal opinion is that the change in balls won't change the damage caused by the repetitive heading of the ball.
I never liked heading the ball as a kid and don't really see the need to it in the professional game.
From the previous threads, I'm very much in the minority, as you suggest.
I think the NFL have made a few tweaks to their rules and put more emphasis on helmet technology in the wake of CTE but the game is the same.
I doubt a change in balls will do much good and neither will a change in helmets to be honest. There’s no doubt the research is gathering pace and there will be a large inquest. In my opinion, if heading does get banned, all it’ll do is dilute the game experience and add additional layers of confusion.
Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 21:35 - Oct 1 by Keaneish
I think the NFL have made a few tweaks to their rules and put more emphasis on helmet technology in the wake of CTE but the game is the same.
I doubt a change in balls will do much good and neither will a change in helmets to be honest. There’s no doubt the research is gathering pace and there will be a large inquest. In my opinion, if heading does get banned, all it’ll do is dilute the game experience and add additional layers of confusion.
Couldn’t be more wrong on American Football, they have basically banned all tackling leading with the head to try and remove those impacts. Some players still do it occasionally - in the NFL it’s a penalty for doing so, with particularly violent cases resulting in an ejection, and college and below is an immediate ejection for targeting
So essentially trying to remove head impacts from the game - the equivalent of which in football would be removing heading
Highlighting crass stupidity since sometime around 2010
Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 09:58 - Oct 1 by Keaneish
The game as it exists brings joy to billions of people. The only purpose this would serve would be to prolong the lives of elderly men and women by a few years to ease the suffering on a minority of families who have invested their lives in the game they love which brings said joy.
Of course it’s sad but Wilson, the Charlton’s and Peter’s who are probably the most high-profile cases were elderly men from a different generation.
Personally, I’m in favour of raising awareness and advancing technology rather than changing the fundamentals.
Wow, to me that reads as being incredibly ignorant and dismissive of the horrors of dementia
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Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 22:35 - Oct 1 with 824 views
Butcher is calling for heading to be phased out on 20:41 - Oct 1 by Keaneish
We’ll have to ban the ball being controlled at chest height next to prevent flailing arms catching the head and causing concussion. I’ve been knocked out three times on the pitch, all innocuous from collisions of elbows or shoulders off the ball. They may well have bigger long term damage than the heading I’ve done or the blows taken during sparring sessions in the ring.
Sponge ball and shoulder pads it is. Problem solved.
[Post edited 1 Oct 2021 20:49]
"I’ve been knocked out three times on the pitch"
Glad that it's not affected your cognitive abilities at all.
I am (clearly) very much in the minority here but I can see this happening across the game and I think it will happen quite soon. The rules will have to be very carefully adjusted or else coaches will encourage different approaches if the ball is in the air (jumping with shoulder, jumping with back in order to control the ball). Logically, the whole notion of an "aerial" ball will need to be removed. They will probably "copy" the template of another sport where balls in the air are not really allowed. In hockey=
"In general play, the ball cannot be raised into the air when hit. A player will be penalised if they lift the ball in a way which is dangerous to another player".
The whole strategy of the game would change radically. Football would become very much football. Strategy would very much involve pass low and shoot. Corner strategy would very much become a thing of the past (no point in lobbing it into the area). Shooting would stay the same but the game itself would have an emphasis on technical skill and less on physicality.
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