Is that it for Woolfenden here? 02:04 - Oct 22 with 6422 views | pointofblue | A late night thought running through my mind - is that it for Woolfenden here? Obviously Edmundson and Burgess bumped him down spots and Nsiala has found favour over him now too. So I guess, at his age where he needs football, that’s it; if he wants first team football he’ll have to move on. And I hope Cook let’s him, especially as El Mizouni’s emergence might not mean Woolfenden is required to meet the homegrown criteria. I have to admit I do have, possibly overly, a soft spot for Woolfenden and feel he was dealt a bad hand, particularly last year, in defensive partnerships which IMO hindered his progress, but if he wants to have a chance of a decent career he probably needs to move in January. I cannot see anyway he can fight back into the side. | |
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Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 01:27 - Oct 25 with 838 views | pointofblue |
Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 14:51 - Oct 23 by Nthsuffolkblue | Yes, that's it for him. Just like it has been for Donacien, Nsiala and others in the past. No chance he could develop or be given another chance. |
True but Donacien and Nsiala were ostracised by one manager and brought back by another. Most players are out of the squad and work their way back in it; not start in the squad, fall out of it completely and somehow push themselves back in under the same manager. | |
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Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 02:18 - Oct 25 with 823 views | Yallop | He needs to be the best player on the pitch in training and for the under 23's. If he does that he'll get a chance. | | | |
Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 07:28 - Oct 25 with 774 views | blueboyd | Woolfenden is ex-Ipswich team from last season that Cook hated so will not play any part in his plans. He is more than good enough for this league, obviously with the signings we have made there is no place for him and we will be damaging his career to just keep him and not play him. Him, Holy, Norwood, Jackson, Nolan need paying up and releasing. | | | |
Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 08:22 - Oct 25 with 753 views | Herbivore |
Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 07:28 - Oct 25 by blueboyd | Woolfenden is ex-Ipswich team from last season that Cook hated so will not play any part in his plans. He is more than good enough for this league, obviously with the signings we have made there is no place for him and we will be damaging his career to just keep him and not play him. Him, Holy, Norwood, Jackson, Nolan need paying up and releasing. |
No chance will we pay up his contract and release him. That's madness. | |
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Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 08:30 - Oct 25 with 744 views | itfcjoe |
Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 01:27 - Oct 25 by pointofblue | True but Donacien and Nsiala were ostracised by one manager and brought back by another. Most players are out of the squad and work their way back in it; not start in the squad, fall out of it completely and somehow push themselves back in under the same manager. |
Lambert ostracised Nsiala then brought him back so that isn't the case for him | |
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Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 09:42 - Oct 25 with 683 views | pointofblue |
Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 08:30 - Oct 25 by itfcjoe | Lambert ostracised Nsiala then brought him back so that isn't the case for him |
Wasn’t that out of necessity due to injuries? Though guess that could be Woolfenden’s chance as well but we have to hope our injury lost is much shorter this year! | |
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Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 09:52 - Oct 25 with 665 views | chicoazul |
Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 08:06 - Oct 22 by Steve_M | Only if we continue wanting to be really careless with footballers brought through the club. Why are we so keen just to let players go rather than develop them and sell them on for decent money? It's really weird how Wolfenden was massively overrated by Town fans a couple of years ago and is now massively underrated. He remains a better medium-term bet than Nsiala and possibly Burgess too. |
I believe that sadly, we are going to see fewer and fewer players come through, to the point where the Academy closes. Yes yes I know what Ashton said the club is committed to the academy we are going for Cat 1 blah blah, but why develop a Harper or Edwards when you can buy the real thing and sell them for huge profit in 3 or 4 years all being well. We are a rich club now. | |
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Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 10:01 - Oct 25 with 656 views | wkj |
Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 09:52 - Oct 25 by chicoazul | I believe that sadly, we are going to see fewer and fewer players come through, to the point where the Academy closes. Yes yes I know what Ashton said the club is committed to the academy we are going for Cat 1 blah blah, but why develop a Harper or Edwards when you can buy the real thing and sell them for huge profit in 3 or 4 years all being well. We are a rich club now. |
Sadly, I think that is becoming true for a lot of clubs with academies. Elite Clubs are hoarding and acquiring the best youth prospects for peanuts and then selling them for peanuts if they don't make it. I actually think that the youth structure in the English game should mean that the top clubs can bid to become the first option if/when the player is sold. It would mean the gamble is purely with the buying team, not with the development team who has to gamble on accepting crumbs or nothing if the player ends the contract. | |
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Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 10:07 - Oct 25 with 647 views | franz_tyson |
Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 09:52 - Oct 25 by chicoazul | I believe that sadly, we are going to see fewer and fewer players come through, to the point where the Academy closes. Yes yes I know what Ashton said the club is committed to the academy we are going for Cat 1 blah blah, but why develop a Harper or Edwards when you can buy the real thing and sell them for huge profit in 3 or 4 years all being well. We are a rich club now. |
Then it’s up to us to try and develop the youngsters more quickly or to a better standard. Getting good loan deals is one way. If every club closed their academy - where would players come from? We’ve probably benefitted from picking up players from other clubs academies where they’ve been released at a young age. Youngsters not quite making it and then dropping down a level or two to re-start their career keeps the production line rolling even if it doesn’t neccasarily directly benefit us. We’ve picked up Edwards and Penney on free transfers from clubs who brought them up - maybe we need to part of the chain to keep the wheels turning. | | | |
Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 10:11 - Oct 25 with 646 views | wkj |
Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 10:07 - Oct 25 by franz_tyson | Then it’s up to us to try and develop the youngsters more quickly or to a better standard. Getting good loan deals is one way. If every club closed their academy - where would players come from? We’ve probably benefitted from picking up players from other clubs academies where they’ve been released at a young age. Youngsters not quite making it and then dropping down a level or two to re-start their career keeps the production line rolling even if it doesn’t neccasarily directly benefit us. We’ve picked up Edwards and Penney on free transfers from clubs who brought them up - maybe we need to part of the chain to keep the wheels turning. |
The problem with developing youngsters quicker and to a better standard is that we just become a shopping center for the rich. Paying carboot prices for boutique quality players. It is an impossible situation for academies unless they find a player who lands them a jackpot, in which case its a gamble at best. I don't think academies should close, but the rules should drastically change. | |
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Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 10:25 - Oct 25 with 629 views | MaySixth | No, he is part of a squad. | |
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Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 10:36 - Oct 25 with 613 views | itfcjoe |
Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 09:52 - Oct 25 by chicoazul | I believe that sadly, we are going to see fewer and fewer players come through, to the point where the Academy closes. Yes yes I know what Ashton said the club is committed to the academy we are going for Cat 1 blah blah, but why develop a Harper or Edwards when you can buy the real thing and sell them for huge profit in 3 or 4 years all being well. We are a rich club now. |
When I asked Ashton about Cat 1 status in fans Q&A he could barely have been more cold to the idea - the club seemingly has little interest in it at the level of the powers that be. A mistake for me | |
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Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 11:41 - Oct 25 with 578 views | franz_tyson |
Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 10:11 - Oct 25 by wkj | The problem with developing youngsters quicker and to a better standard is that we just become a shopping center for the rich. Paying carboot prices for boutique quality players. It is an impossible situation for academies unless they find a player who lands them a jackpot, in which case its a gamble at best. I don't think academies should close, but the rules should drastically change. |
Well that’s where we are at the moment. Higher we go up the pyramid then the better our bargaining power. I’m totally fine with selling academy kids on if we re-invest wisely. Dozzell and Bishop were valued much higher a few years ago and maybe a better business strategy would mean we’d sell at a better price. It usually takes ages for youngsters to go from high potential to seasoned pro’s and if a bigger club wants to gamble on potential and pay us top dollar then fine by me. And it means the academy is justifying itself. | | | |
Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 11:48 - Oct 25 with 565 views | chicoazul |
Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 10:36 - Oct 25 by itfcjoe | When I asked Ashton about Cat 1 status in fans Q&A he could barely have been more cold to the idea - the club seemingly has little interest in it at the level of the powers that be. A mistake for me |
They’re going to go down the Brentford route. Dozens of scouts and analysts and a DoF and no Academy. Tragic if it happens. | |
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Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 11:54 - Oct 25 with 556 views | itfcjoe |
Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 11:48 - Oct 25 by chicoazul | They’re going to go down the Brentford route. Dozens of scouts and analysts and a DoF and no Academy. Tragic if it happens. |
And totally the wrong approach for a geographically isolated club | |
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Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 11:57 - Oct 25 with 550 views | chicoazul |
Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 11:54 - Oct 25 by itfcjoe | And totally the wrong approach for a geographically isolated club |
I don’t think we’re too bad in that respect. It’s only an hour to Westfield and there are airports nearby. But I take your point. | |
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Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 12:13 - Oct 25 with 545 views | WilbrahamBlue |
Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 09:52 - Oct 25 by chicoazul | I believe that sadly, we are going to see fewer and fewer players come through, to the point where the Academy closes. Yes yes I know what Ashton said the club is committed to the academy we are going for Cat 1 blah blah, but why develop a Harper or Edwards when you can buy the real thing and sell them for huge profit in 3 or 4 years all being well. We are a rich club now. |
Academies are looking more and more a nostalgic and romanticised relic of how football used to be. Its hard to argue with its total abolishment if you reflect on the last 15 years. It has had little to no positive impact on the first 11 in that time, that has actually benefited the on-pitch performances. For some time now, we have lost anyone of note before their 1st pro contract and the level of transfer-fee involved for academy graduates from that point on has to be re-invested wisely to have any impact which is rarely the case. Whilst its always nice to have a local kid progress through, if we are successful on the pitch why bat an eyelid.... [Post edited 25 Oct 2021 12:14]
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Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 12:17 - Oct 25 with 538 views | chicoazul |
Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 12:13 - Oct 25 by WilbrahamBlue | Academies are looking more and more a nostalgic and romanticised relic of how football used to be. Its hard to argue with its total abolishment if you reflect on the last 15 years. It has had little to no positive impact on the first 11 in that time, that has actually benefited the on-pitch performances. For some time now, we have lost anyone of note before their 1st pro contract and the level of transfer-fee involved for academy graduates from that point on has to be re-invested wisely to have any impact which is rarely the case. Whilst its always nice to have a local kid progress through, if we are successful on the pitch why bat an eyelid.... [Post edited 25 Oct 2021 12:14]
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It’s also true that the fees for Downes Bishop Dozzell and Gibbs helped pay in large part fees for the new players we have signed. | |
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Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 12:36 - Oct 25 with 527 views | Skip_Intro |
Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 12:13 - Oct 25 by WilbrahamBlue | Academies are looking more and more a nostalgic and romanticised relic of how football used to be. Its hard to argue with its total abolishment if you reflect on the last 15 years. It has had little to no positive impact on the first 11 in that time, that has actually benefited the on-pitch performances. For some time now, we have lost anyone of note before their 1st pro contract and the level of transfer-fee involved for academy graduates from that point on has to be re-invested wisely to have any impact which is rarely the case. Whilst its always nice to have a local kid progress through, if we are successful on the pitch why bat an eyelid.... [Post edited 25 Oct 2021 12:14]
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It's the classic 'heart vs head'...why pay for an academy when you can scout promising youngsters (often released by PL clubs who have hoovered them up) at so-called smaller clubs who have had real game time and buy them relatively cheaply. This may well be more cost effective, particularly if you sell them on eventually for a profit. Personally I like the idea of having an academy but we have seen very little return on the significant investment in recent years and so I can unfortunately see us taking the Brentford approach unless the club are going to make a very unlikely u turn and upgrade to Cat 1 | | | |
Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 12:37 - Oct 25 with 525 views | Skip_Intro |
Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 12:17 - Oct 25 by chicoazul | It’s also true that the fees for Downes Bishop Dozzell and Gibbs helped pay in large part fees for the new players we have signed. |
I'd suggest that these fees would have been less than the cost of running the academy for the duration of those players' time spent in it...not condoning it but in a spreadsheet driven world it's a factor. | | | |
Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 12:52 - Oct 25 with 518 views | itfcjoe |
Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 12:13 - Oct 25 by WilbrahamBlue | Academies are looking more and more a nostalgic and romanticised relic of how football used to be. Its hard to argue with its total abolishment if you reflect on the last 15 years. It has had little to no positive impact on the first 11 in that time, that has actually benefited the on-pitch performances. For some time now, we have lost anyone of note before their 1st pro contract and the level of transfer-fee involved for academy graduates from that point on has to be re-invested wisely to have any impact which is rarely the case. Whilst its always nice to have a local kid progress through, if we are successful on the pitch why bat an eyelid.... [Post edited 25 Oct 2021 12:14]
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It's really not difficult to argue against it's "total abolishment". In the last 15 years it's produced £15m or so in transfer fees and well over 1000 appearances for the club Even this summer's transfer business has been built off the back of being able to sell Downes, Dozzell, Gibbs, Bishop and Lankester which has brought in over £3m. For all the talk of our transfer spend being neutral this summer it is down to academy players that this has been the case. We have lost 3-4 players before their first contract - but we've kept hold of the other 15-20 youth internationals that have been produced - some have worked out and some haven't. The academy has been a good thing for Ipswich Town, for a variety of reasons - but with the investment being cut back to the bone in it then it has had a couple of leaner years. There are a million reasons to keep it - just worrying about success on the pitch misses the point that a football club should be representative of it's community and should give back to it. | |
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Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 13:13 - Oct 25 with 494 views | franz_tyson |
Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 12:52 - Oct 25 by itfcjoe | It's really not difficult to argue against it's "total abolishment". In the last 15 years it's produced £15m or so in transfer fees and well over 1000 appearances for the club Even this summer's transfer business has been built off the back of being able to sell Downes, Dozzell, Gibbs, Bishop and Lankester which has brought in over £3m. For all the talk of our transfer spend being neutral this summer it is down to academy players that this has been the case. We have lost 3-4 players before their first contract - but we've kept hold of the other 15-20 youth internationals that have been produced - some have worked out and some haven't. The academy has been a good thing for Ipswich Town, for a variety of reasons - but with the investment being cut back to the bone in it then it has had a couple of leaner years. There are a million reasons to keep it - just worrying about success on the pitch misses the point that a football club should be representative of it's community and should give back to it. |
“ In the last 15 years it's produced £15m or so in transfer fees and well over 1000 appearances for the club ” How about the last 10-11 years since we sold Wickham? How much money has it produced and what is the running costs per year? Since then, how many of our youngsters have been sold upwards? Dozzel, Downes? Might have been 1000 appearances over 15 years, but is that to fill gaps rather than improve the team? I don’t want to close the academy, but I think it’s been a bit over-rated. At the moment, just think we should concentrate on improving the first team. Without throwing the academy under the bus, I hope Ashton and co are putting the vast majority of their attention towards the first team. So maybe Ashton’s reluctance for CAT A is purely a matter of priorities for the moment. | | | |
Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 13:14 - Oct 25 with 491 views | chicoazul |
Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 13:13 - Oct 25 by franz_tyson | “ In the last 15 years it's produced £15m or so in transfer fees and well over 1000 appearances for the club ” How about the last 10-11 years since we sold Wickham? How much money has it produced and what is the running costs per year? Since then, how many of our youngsters have been sold upwards? Dozzel, Downes? Might have been 1000 appearances over 15 years, but is that to fill gaps rather than improve the team? I don’t want to close the academy, but I think it’s been a bit over-rated. At the moment, just think we should concentrate on improving the first team. Without throwing the academy under the bus, I hope Ashton and co are putting the vast majority of their attention towards the first team. So maybe Ashton’s reluctance for CAT A is purely a matter of priorities for the moment. |
Excellent post put very eloquently. | |
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Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 13:46 - Oct 25 with 463 views | itfcjoe |
Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 13:13 - Oct 25 by franz_tyson | “ In the last 15 years it's produced £15m or so in transfer fees and well over 1000 appearances for the club ” How about the last 10-11 years since we sold Wickham? How much money has it produced and what is the running costs per year? Since then, how many of our youngsters have been sold upwards? Dozzel, Downes? Might have been 1000 appearances over 15 years, but is that to fill gaps rather than improve the team? I don’t want to close the academy, but I think it’s been a bit over-rated. At the moment, just think we should concentrate on improving the first team. Without throwing the academy under the bus, I hope Ashton and co are putting the vast majority of their attention towards the first team. So maybe Ashton’s reluctance for CAT A is purely a matter of priorities for the moment. |
It's clear that the first team is being prioritised, and the job is to get out of League 1 and that is totally right, but at some point the Academy needs to be looked at when things settle down - and whilst it isn't as important as sorting out a recruitment team, it can't just be left either We've just appointed Bristol City's former academy manager as our Director of Football Operations, Lee O'Neill is back as Academy Manager so it's two very good and experienced people now in key roles at the club which gives hope that the academy will be properly managed and looked at, rather than as an after thought at times. | |
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Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 13:48 - Oct 25 with 460 views | WilbrahamBlue |
Is that it for Woolfenden here? on 12:17 - Oct 25 by chicoazul | It’s also true that the fees for Downes Bishop Dozzell and Gibbs helped pay in large part fees for the new players we have signed. |
Whilst that's certainly the narrative trotted out to counter the 'Chequebook FC' angle, the reality is we would of signed the players we have signed anyway under new ownership. | | | |
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