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Austria is going to make having both jabs compulsory on 19:52 - Nov 19 by Lightworker
The evidence around transmission of Covid in the vaccinated does not support any of the draconian measures you seem to be relishing. I have unvaccinated friends that are among the healthiest people I know and who I still have no hesitation in meeting for a coffee or a bite to eat. I respect their choice to make their own healthcare decisions as they do mine.
I'm glad you find the ever increasing discrimination and the introduction of a two tier society something to laugh about though.
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Austria is going to make having both jabs compulsory on 19:57 - Nov 19 with 1883 views
And i remember you supporting police brutality against innocent members of the public until you disappeared up your own arsehole. It's funny how we remember things differently isn't it......
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Austria is going to make having both jabs compulsory on 20:01 - Nov 19 with 1871 views
Austria is going to make having both jabs compulsory on 19:52 - Nov 19 by Lightworker
The evidence around transmission of Covid in the vaccinated does not support any of the draconian measures you seem to be relishing. I have unvaccinated friends that are among the healthiest people I know and who I still have no hesitation in meeting for a coffee or a bite to eat. I respect their choice to make their own healthcare decisions as they do mine.
I'm glad you find the ever increasing discrimination and the introduction of a two tier society something to laugh about though.
‘I have unvaccinated friends who are health’ isn’t exactly a strong argument. I have three unvaccinated acquaintances (not particularly close friends) who’ve had covid hospital stays lately and one has lost a limb. I suppose it all comes down to wether the unvaccinated can stay healthy after being exposed to the virus. And the evidence suggests it’s a lot less likely.
Austria is going to make having both jabs compulsory on 19:57 - Nov 19 by Lightworker
And i remember you supporting police brutality against innocent members of the public until you disappeared up your own arsehole. It's funny how we remember things differently isn't it......
Austria is going to make having both jabs compulsory on 20:01 - Nov 19 by Swansea_Blue
‘I have unvaccinated friends who are health’ isn’t exactly a strong argument. I have three unvaccinated acquaintances (not particularly close friends) who’ve had covid hospital stays lately and one has lost a limb. I suppose it all comes down to wether the unvaccinated can stay healthy after being exposed to the virus. And the evidence suggests it’s a lot less likely.
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Austria is going to make having both jabs compulsory on 20:06 - Nov 19 with 1831 views
Austria is going to make having both jabs compulsory on 20:01 - Nov 19 by Swansea_Blue
‘I have unvaccinated friends who are health’ isn’t exactly a strong argument. I have three unvaccinated acquaintances (not particularly close friends) who’ve had covid hospital stays lately and one has lost a limb. I suppose it all comes down to wether the unvaccinated can stay healthy after being exposed to the virus. And the evidence suggests it’s a lot less likely.
A strong argument for what? I wasn't making the case for not taking the vaccine merely that I refuse to see such people as subhuman or walking disease factories.
We all have anecdotal stories of course. I know vaccinated and unvaccinated people who have tested positive for covid recently and a vaccinated couple who both ended up in intensive care. This whole issue is not nearly as black & white as people like to make out.
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Austria is going to make having both jabs compulsory on 20:16 - Nov 19 with 1790 views
"The government said it was preparing the legal groundwork for a general vaccine mandate to come into effect from 1 February, with exemptions for those unable to receive a jab on medical grounds."
"Those refusing to be vaccinated are likely to face administrative fines, which can be converted into a prison sentence if the fine cannot be recovered."
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
No idea what dings dongs you two have had before, but worrying about groups being scapegoats or dehumanised doesn't strike me as a particularly alt right thing and if anything quite a lefty concern. Or perhaps chatting over the issue of compulsory vaccination would be better without mentioning politics at all? Seems more of a moral or ethical dilemma to me.
[Post edited 19 Nov 2021 20:23]
Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
Austria is going to make having both jabs compulsory on 17:58 - Nov 19 by Lightworker
But it's not the law of the land is it, and that's the point. We have not had adult vaccine mandates in western democracies for a long time, and for very good reason. We have a basic medical position of informed consent where patients are explained the benefits, the risks and the alternatives and they then decide if they wish to take the treatment. This is how it should be.
I am generally pro-vaccine but I do not have the religious like belief in them that many on here seem to. The Covid vaccines have done what they said on the tin when it comes to preventing serious illness but in terms of preventing infection and transmission they have frankly been a bit of a disappointment and anybody who says otherwise is not looking objectively at the data.
There are numerous examples from around Europe where highly vaccinated populations have had big increases in case numbers. In this very country we are currently looking at a situation where cases per 100'000 of the population are higher in the vaccinated than the unvaccinated for most adult age groups. The boosters will improve this situation but even so it is clear that protection form being infected wanes quite badly after a few months.
You have stated on this thread that they are proven 'safe and effective' this is not completely true. I touched on the effectiveness above, now in terms of the safety, yes they are generally considered safe but there are still risks. The BBC presenter Lisa Shaw died as a direct result of complications following the AZ vaccine. I don't really see how you can declare something 'safe' that has the potential to kill.
The UK yellow card data shows over a million adverse reactions ( some of which are of a serious nature ) and 1768 deaths. Not all of these deaths are confirmed as being caused by the vaccine but it is reasonable to assume that a proportion of them are. https://yellowcard.ukcolumn.org/yellow-card-reports
I recently watched the video below regarding a post vaccine case of pericarditis which has had quite serious health implications for this young man in the US and has curtailed his career as a professional mountain biker. Dr John Campbell who is doing the interview is very reputable and honest. I urge people to watch this if time permits, it may help you to see a slightly different perspective, it certainly did me.
I understand that the risks from the vaccine are low and i'm sure people are going to be quick to remind me that Covid presents a far greater risk, however the point is that where there is risk, there simply MUST be a choice. We cannot allow a situation where the state decides what medical treatments we must have, and failure to comply is considered unlawful. I know we are talking about Austria but where one leads others will follow. Do you really want to allow that sort of power to idiots like Johnson and Javid? I understand that you have been touched personally by Covid, as many of us have, but I truly believe you and a few others on this thread need to rethink your position on this one.
[Post edited 19 Nov 2021 19:14]
“ In this very country we are currently looking at a situation where cases per 100'000 of the population are higher in the vaccinated than the unvaccinated for most adult age groups”
Can you point me to your source for this statement. I’m assuming those figures are adjusted for the relative sizes of those populations given the vaccinated population exceeds the unvaccinated by a ratio of about 5:1.
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Austria is going to make having both jabs compulsory (n/t) on 20:21 - Nov 19 with 1764 views
Austria is going to make having both jabs compulsory on 17:58 - Nov 19 by Lightworker
But it's not the law of the land is it, and that's the point. We have not had adult vaccine mandates in western democracies for a long time, and for very good reason. We have a basic medical position of informed consent where patients are explained the benefits, the risks and the alternatives and they then decide if they wish to take the treatment. This is how it should be.
I am generally pro-vaccine but I do not have the religious like belief in them that many on here seem to. The Covid vaccines have done what they said on the tin when it comes to preventing serious illness but in terms of preventing infection and transmission they have frankly been a bit of a disappointment and anybody who says otherwise is not looking objectively at the data.
There are numerous examples from around Europe where highly vaccinated populations have had big increases in case numbers. In this very country we are currently looking at a situation where cases per 100'000 of the population are higher in the vaccinated than the unvaccinated for most adult age groups. The boosters will improve this situation but even so it is clear that protection form being infected wanes quite badly after a few months.
You have stated on this thread that they are proven 'safe and effective' this is not completely true. I touched on the effectiveness above, now in terms of the safety, yes they are generally considered safe but there are still risks. The BBC presenter Lisa Shaw died as a direct result of complications following the AZ vaccine. I don't really see how you can declare something 'safe' that has the potential to kill.
The UK yellow card data shows over a million adverse reactions ( some of which are of a serious nature ) and 1768 deaths. Not all of these deaths are confirmed as being caused by the vaccine but it is reasonable to assume that a proportion of them are. https://yellowcard.ukcolumn.org/yellow-card-reports
I recently watched the video below regarding a post vaccine case of pericarditis which has had quite serious health implications for this young man in the US and has curtailed his career as a professional mountain biker. Dr John Campbell who is doing the interview is very reputable and honest. I urge people to watch this if time permits, it may help you to see a slightly different perspective, it certainly did me.
I understand that the risks from the vaccine are low and i'm sure people are going to be quick to remind me that Covid presents a far greater risk, however the point is that where there is risk, there simply MUST be a choice. We cannot allow a situation where the state decides what medical treatments we must have, and failure to comply is considered unlawful. I know we are talking about Austria but where one leads others will follow. Do you really want to allow that sort of power to idiots like Johnson and Javid? I understand that you have been touched personally by Covid, as many of us have, but I truly believe you and a few others on this thread need to rethink your position on this one.
[Post edited 19 Nov 2021 19:14]
Edit:
My point on yellow card seems to have been made already so no point finishing this post.
SB
[Post edited 19 Nov 2021 20:24]
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Austria is going to make having both jabs compulsory on 20:22 - Nov 19 with 1764 views
Austria is going to make having both jabs compulsory on 20:06 - Nov 19 by Lightworker
A strong argument for what? I wasn't making the case for not taking the vaccine merely that I refuse to see such people as subhuman or walking disease factories.
We all have anecdotal stories of course. I know vaccinated and unvaccinated people who have tested positive for covid recently and a vaccinated couple who both ended up in intensive care. This whole issue is not nearly as black & white as people like to make out.
It’s pretty black and white around the overall benefit of vaccines. Making them mandatory is obviously a lot more controversial. Agreed on that.
"The government said it was preparing the legal groundwork for a general vaccine mandate to come into effect from 1 February, with exemptions for those unable to receive a jab on medical grounds."
"Those refusing to be vaccinated are likely to face administrative fines, which can be converted into a prison sentence if the fine cannot be recovered."
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Austria is going to make having both jabs compulsory on 20:31 - Nov 19 with 1721 views
Austria is going to make having both jabs compulsory on 20:19 - Nov 19 by longtimefan
“ In this very country we are currently looking at a situation where cases per 100'000 of the population are higher in the vaccinated than the unvaccinated for most adult age groups”
Can you point me to your source for this statement. I’m assuming those figures are adjusted for the relative sizes of those populations given the vaccinated population exceeds the unvaccinated by a ratio of about 5:1.
NHS data released this week show that the rate of cases is significantly higher in the vaccinated than unvaccinated, ages 30 and above.
So he is factually correct. However, the death risk is 32 times higher for the unvaccinated than the vaccinated.
Austria is going to make having both jabs compulsory on 20:18 - Nov 19 by giant_stow
No idea what dings dongs you two have had before, but worrying about groups being scapegoats or dehumanised doesn't strike me as a particularly alt right thing and if anything quite a lefty concern. Or perhaps chatting over the issue of compulsory vaccination would be better without mentioning politics at all? Seems more of a moral or ethical dilemma to me.
[Post edited 19 Nov 2021 20:23]
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Austria is going to make having both jabs compulsory on 20:41 - Nov 19 with 1692 views
Austria is going to make having both jabs compulsory on 20:19 - Nov 19 by longtimefan
“ In this very country we are currently looking at a situation where cases per 100'000 of the population are higher in the vaccinated than the unvaccinated for most adult age groups”
Can you point me to your source for this statement. I’m assuming those figures are adjusted for the relative sizes of those populations given the vaccinated population exceeds the unvaccinated by a ratio of about 5:1.
Its on the Governments own reporting, go to page 23. The figures are per 100'000 so do account for the different populations.
This is the raw data and they do point out that "Comparing case rates among vaccinated and unvaccinated populations should not be used to estimate vaccine effectiveness against COVID-19 infection" However the numbers are what they are, and i was certainly a little surprised by them.
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Austria is going to make having both jabs compulsory on 20:42 - Nov 19 with 1691 views
Austria is going to make having both jabs compulsory on 20:31 - Nov 19 by GlasgowBlue
NHS data released this week show that the rate of cases is significantly higher in the vaccinated than unvaccinated, ages 30 and above.
So he is factually correct. However, the death risk is 32 times higher for the unvaccinated than the vaccinated.
This probably explains the increase in unmasked shoppers in Waitrose! So by extension that might also suggest that the unvaccinated are more cautious, individual choice and all that. Funny how the statist left seem to have most trouble with that.
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Austria is going to make having both jabs compulsory on 20:31 - Nov 19 by GlasgowBlue
NHS data released this week show that the rate of cases is significantly higher in the vaccinated than unvaccinated, ages 30 and above.
So he is factually correct. However, the death risk is 32 times higher for the unvaccinated than the vaccinated.
I'm not disputing the protection against hospitalisation and deaths, that is precisely why I took the vaccine in the first place, but when we are talking about vaccine mandates and sacking health workers etc. the key aspect has to be how well they prevent transmission.
This is where the draconian measures that are creeping in around Europe are not in any way justified by the science or the data.
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