| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 18:38 - Nov 25 with 1054 views | giant_stow |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 18:29 - Nov 25 by You_Bloo_Right |
OK noted that you have a handle on the nature of the dispute.
Noted too your call for RMT members to roll over "for the greater good".
And finally, after you have raised the issue in such an emotive manner and failed to really address any of the points the less abusive people on the thread have made trying to tease out of you why you think we should all (well at least the tube drivers) worsen our own lot because other workers are even worse off (and not just financially), noted too that you no longer wish to debate.
I think I've tried my best to be civil and I think I have raised some counter arguments worthy of consideration. I have less patience than some of the more respected people on here, so you drop out of this one and I will allow myself the indulgence of not taking anything you say in future with any seriousness. |
Nice sting in the tail there - your disguised civility is obvious although in fairness, you had managed to be respectful until then, so 7/10.
I'm afraid my problem is that I've already put my case now many times over and answered each counter-point. I can't brain wash people into agreeing though so maybe that's why it looks like I haven't.
If I'm emotive in how I put my points over, tis because I actually think poorly of their behaviour.
Can you tell me now, why a cleaner or shop worker should respect their actions, as they struggle into work during the strikes? Or what what other services TFL should cut to give the drivers what they want? No one has acknowledged the point that TFL is severely down on revenue. Revenue that the tories won't top up... |  |
|  |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 18:53 - Nov 25 with 1007 views | noggin |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 18:38 - Nov 25 by giant_stow |
Nice sting in the tail there - your disguised civility is obvious although in fairness, you had managed to be respectful until then, so 7/10.
I'm afraid my problem is that I've already put my case now many times over and answered each counter-point. I can't brain wash people into agreeing though so maybe that's why it looks like I haven't.
If I'm emotive in how I put my points over, tis because I actually think poorly of their behaviour.
Can you tell me now, why a cleaner or shop worker should respect their actions, as they struggle into work during the strikes? Or what what other services TFL should cut to give the drivers what they want? No one has acknowledged the point that TFL is severely down on revenue. Revenue that the tories won't top up... |
The only power the common man has is to withdraw his labour. Power to the people ✊ |  |
| |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 18:58 - Nov 25 with 990 views | Crawfordsboot |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 18:10 - Nov 25 by You_Bloo_Right |
I'm inclined to the view that giving away the right to collective bargaining is a major step backwards in terms of both labour relations and human rights leading, as I believe it would, to the atrophying of the TU movement with subsequent (predictable IMO) reductions in standards of working conditions, individual worker's rights as well, of course, in pay and other "rewards" packages.
I have no doubt that certain elements of our society would love to see TUs become little more than a combination of the CAB and pro bono lawyers. Whilst this is, as you imply, a very important part of the role TUs play it is not all they can do, and should be allowed to continue to do, for their members.
Your faith in legislation does not cut it for me I'm afraid. Progress on things like minimum wage (or alternatives such as guaranteed basic income) has, at least in this country, been particularly slow. Indeed it is perhaps instructive that the Scandinavian countries, who regularly seem to reach the top of things like the quality of life index, have no legislation surrounding minimum wage but allow wage levels to be set via ........... collective bargaining. I don't have your faith that working standards would be enshrined in law were it not for the past (present and probably future) actions of organisations like TUs - the evidence of history remains too powerful.
I do find the way you couch your alternatives somewhat weighted so perhaps you could answer the question. What, do you think, this dispute is specifically about? |
You make some fair points but in recent years I have seen transport unions dig in and try to delay the introduction of automated ticket barriers, or touch in touch out tickets and automatic doors on tubes, trains and trams. These are all things that any number of countries have introduced and which I think the majority of people now see as sensible developments.
This particular issue appears to be about relatively minor changes to working patterns for limited numbers of staff. Union reaction needs to be proportionate but it appears that they have responded as they did to earlier innovations such as those mentioned above |  | | |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 19:00 - Nov 25 with 991 views | XYZ |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 18:21 - Nov 25 by giant_stow |
I've kind of had enough of this one tbh, but its about changes to working conditions brought about by the removal of the night time grade of driver. The others are being asked to cover the work load.
(btw, thanks to Phil for removing one of XYZ's delightful (not to mention sexist) contributions - but I didn't ask for that, just to be clear. i wonder if he's sobered up yet? [Post edited 25 Nov 2021 18:22]
|
You really are a piece of work. Find one remotely sexist thing I've ever posted. |  | | |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 19:01 - Nov 25 with 988 views | You_Bloo_Right |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 18:38 - Nov 25 by giant_stow |
Nice sting in the tail there - your disguised civility is obvious although in fairness, you had managed to be respectful until then, so 7/10.
I'm afraid my problem is that I've already put my case now many times over and answered each counter-point. I can't brain wash people into agreeing though so maybe that's why it looks like I haven't.
If I'm emotive in how I put my points over, tis because I actually think poorly of their behaviour.
Can you tell me now, why a cleaner or shop worker should respect their actions, as they struggle into work during the strikes? Or what what other services TFL should cut to give the drivers what they want? No one has acknowledged the point that TFL is severely down on revenue. Revenue that the tories won't top up... |
These are fair points but I fail to understand why you believe it is the RMT membership who should resolve them.
If TfL is under-funded (which of course it is) then perhaps addressing that point is the responsibility of others rather than a TU. Even if you feel TfL are doing a stand up job in the face of extremely difficult circumstances, should not THEIR efforts to resolve the funding issue be focused on increasing the subsidy (let's not forget, the government cut funding for TfL by £700m a year and yet despite that TfL reduced their operating deficit, with the assistance of all the employees, from £900m per annum to about £200m p.a. Then covid hit and whilst the government predicted a 30% drop in passengers there was, over a prolonged period, a 90% drop).
If the workers who use the tube are underpaid then either their employers should be shamed or legislated into fixing that or they should unionise and help fix it for themselves (both potential solutions there offer a greater longer term benefit to those people than a TU not protecting its own members by taking a few days' strike action).
Like others I just feel you have the wrong target for your ire no matter how justified your motives may be. |  |
| |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 19:19 - Nov 25 with 968 views | You_Bloo_Right |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 18:58 - Nov 25 by Crawfordsboot |
You make some fair points but in recent years I have seen transport unions dig in and try to delay the introduction of automated ticket barriers, or touch in touch out tickets and automatic doors on tubes, trains and trams. These are all things that any number of countries have introduced and which I think the majority of people now see as sensible developments.
This particular issue appears to be about relatively minor changes to working patterns for limited numbers of staff. Union reaction needs to be proportionate but it appears that they have responded as they did to earlier innovations such as those mentioned above |
I'm not sure that those impacted by the changes would regard them as relatively minor to be honest impacting, as they do, the fabled work/life balance and, in some cases, a person's ability to continue in their current role (once we consider the impact of changing shift patterns on child care, etc). Indeed they, and their colleagues, regard the issue as important enough to vote for industrial action. I'm not sure that a TU which said, "It's only a small number of our members objecting so the working practice changes can be left to management to change unremarked" would survive for very long.
I'm also struggling to find any recent example of TU objections to automated ticket barriers (which of course have to be manned anyway in case of emergency) or automatic doors on trains (except of course where the introduction of which has led employers to try to remove the role of the guard on a train with the consequent compromising of passenger safety). Got a citation or two?
This is not the 70's and the RMT are not, in my view, holding the country to ransom. To suggest otherwise does seem a little disingenuous. | |
| |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 19:26 - Nov 25 with 951 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 18:38 - Nov 25 by giant_stow |
Nice sting in the tail there - your disguised civility is obvious although in fairness, you had managed to be respectful until then, so 7/10.
I'm afraid my problem is that I've already put my case now many times over and answered each counter-point. I can't brain wash people into agreeing though so maybe that's why it looks like I haven't.
If I'm emotive in how I put my points over, tis because I actually think poorly of their behaviour.
Can you tell me now, why a cleaner or shop worker should respect their actions, as they struggle into work during the strikes? Or what what other services TFL should cut to give the drivers what they want? No one has acknowledged the point that TFL is severely down on revenue. Revenue that the tories won't top up... |
You dropped a bit of blood earlier on ya daft Budgie and it was smelt and now you've been savaged.
You should know better! |  |
| |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 19:33 - Nov 25 with 920 views | ZXBlue |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 19:19 - Nov 25 by You_Bloo_Right |
I'm not sure that those impacted by the changes would regard them as relatively minor to be honest impacting, as they do, the fabled work/life balance and, in some cases, a person's ability to continue in their current role (once we consider the impact of changing shift patterns on child care, etc). Indeed they, and their colleagues, regard the issue as important enough to vote for industrial action. I'm not sure that a TU which said, "It's only a small number of our members objecting so the working practice changes can be left to management to change unremarked" would survive for very long.
I'm also struggling to find any recent example of TU objections to automated ticket barriers (which of course have to be manned anyway in case of emergency) or automatic doors on trains (except of course where the introduction of which has led employers to try to remove the role of the guard on a train with the consequent compromising of passenger safety). Got a citation or two?
This is not the 70's and the RMT are not, in my view, holding the country to ransom. To suggest otherwise does seem a little disingenuous. |
Right. You can have a sensible debate abotu all this, but telling people ( as some seem to be) that it is outright wrong and unreasonable to hold the view that people being paid 55k pa and striking yet again, are pushing for more than is fair... is ridiculous.
You can disagree with it, but it is not an obviously unreasonable position to say that they are high earners already and that using the leverage of strikes in their position is taking advantage to the detriment of others. The level of dogmatism in this thread is astounding.
This is why labour struggle to be elected. Wavering tories see opinions like this and simply say "Loony left, cant vote for them. Dont live in the real world and cant see the other side of a fair discussion". [Post edited 25 Nov 2021 19:35]
| | | |
Login to get fewer ads
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 19:34 - Nov 25 with 916 views | You_Bloo_Right |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 19:33 - Nov 25 by ZXBlue |
Right. You can have a sensible debate abotu all this, but telling people ( as some seem to be) that it is outright wrong and unreasonable to hold the view that people being paid 55k pa and striking yet again, are pushing for more than is fair... is ridiculous.
You can disagree with it, but it is not an obviously unreasonable position to say that they are high earners already and that using the leverage of strikes in their position is taking advantage to the detriment of others. The level of dogmatism in this thread is astounding.
This is why labour struggle to be elected. Wavering tories see opinions like this and simply say "Loony left, cant vote for them. Dont live in the real world and cant see the other side of a fair discussion". [Post edited 25 Nov 2021 19:35]
|
But this was my entire point in asking what the dispute was about. It is not a wage demand. | |
| |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 19:39 - Nov 25 with 912 views | giant_stow |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 19:00 - Nov 25 by XYZ |
You really are a piece of work. Find one remotely sexist thing I've ever posted. |
The feeling's mutual. In my world the word you used is sexist, but maybe I live to tighter standards. [Post edited 25 Nov 2021 19:47]
| |
| |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 19:43 - Nov 25 with 891 views | giant_stow |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 19:26 - Nov 25 by Lord_Lucan |
You dropped a bit of blood earlier on ya daft Budgie and it was smelt and now you've been savaged.
You should know better! |
There's been right old feeding frenzy innit. Normally i look on in vague disgust, so interesting to be the object of appetite this time, but I stand by everything I've said. | |
| |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 19:46 - Nov 25 with 879 views | giant_stow |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 19:34 - Nov 25 by You_Bloo_Right |
But this was my entire point in asking what the dispute was about. It is not a wage demand. |
Ita not an individual wage demand - its a collective wage cost increase, which in terms of a very stretched budget, amounts to the same thing | |
| |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 20:02 - Nov 25 with 826 views | XYZ |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 19:39 - Nov 25 by giant_stow |
The feeling's mutual. In my world the word you used is sexist, but maybe I live to tighter standards. [Post edited 25 Nov 2021 19:47]
|
Can't find anything, then?
What is this word? I have no idea what you're talking about.
If your "standards" include making unsubstantiated slurs against people on the internet, then I'm happy to have different ones, thanks. | | | |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 20:04 - Nov 25 with 813 views | giant_stow |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 20:02 - Nov 25 by XYZ |
Can't find anything, then?
What is this word? I have no idea what you're talking about.
If your "standards" include making unsubstantiated slurs against people on the internet, then I'm happy to have different ones, thanks. |
Gawd are you still drunk? You called me a tw*t earlier... it got deleted remember?
Edit: the swear filter won't let me post it. | |
| |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 20:08 - Nov 25 with 790 views | Herbivore |
Decent stab at a ten pager this one, Ulla. Good effort. |  |
| |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 20:10 - Nov 25 with 783 views | You_Bloo_Right |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 19:46 - Nov 25 by giant_stow |
Ita not an individual wage demand - its a collective wage cost increase, which in terms of a very stretched budget, amounts to the same thing |
A very stretched budget that, even after being torn apart by chancellor Osborne, was delivering year on year savings. And that was hit by the removal of the operating grant, a continued freeze on fares and an ambitious plan to turn the operating loss into a profit in four years (well, that was the plan in 2018). Many countries see their public transport, particularly in their capital city, as providing a social service and subsidise it accordingly. Why not here I wonder?
So putting the argument on it's head.
How would acceptance by the RMT of the new shift patterns/working practices have a long-term positive impact on low paid London workers? Over and above, say, funding public transport properly. | |
| |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 20:17 - Nov 25 with 765 views | giant_stow |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 20:10 - Nov 25 by You_Bloo_Right |
A very stretched budget that, even after being torn apart by chancellor Osborne, was delivering year on year savings. And that was hit by the removal of the operating grant, a continued freeze on fares and an ambitious plan to turn the operating loss into a profit in four years (well, that was the plan in 2018). Many countries see their public transport, particularly in their capital city, as providing a social service and subsidise it accordingly. Why not here I wonder?
So putting the argument on it's head.
How would acceptance by the RMT of the new shift patterns/working practices have a long-term positive impact on low paid London workers? Over and above, say, funding public transport properly. |
Why do people keep on putting the Torie's disgraceful behavior in turning tfl's pandemic funding on me? Pages back, I blamed them for that too!
The difference of opinion is (or should have been) in how to deal with that.
I think the tube drivers could show solidarity to their fellow transport workers who stand to bare the brunt of their campaign - the money has to be saved somewhere - this isn't ideals we're talking about - it's the here and now. That's to answer your last question - they'd help stop cuts elsewhere either in bus routes in mainly poorer areas or in other jobs. [Post edited 25 Nov 2021 20:19]
| |
| |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 20:22 - Nov 25 with 757 views | XYZ |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 20:04 - Nov 25 by giant_stow |
Gawd are you still drunk? You called me a tw*t earlier... it got deleted remember?
Edit: the swear filter won't let me post it. |
You must be fun at teetotalers meetings.
Apologies if I offended your sensibilities (genuinely), and I hold my hand up to a poor choice of insult. I would never use the "c" word and take the point.
To label me as sexist on the use of one word and to suggest that I was in the habit of making sexist posts is unfounded and simply untrue.
I suppose your latest attempt at hitting on the tube drivers was going so badly you decided to play the man. | | | |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 20:33 - Nov 25 with 731 views | giant_stow |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 20:22 - Nov 25 by XYZ |
You must be fun at teetotalers meetings.
Apologies if I offended your sensibilities (genuinely), and I hold my hand up to a poor choice of insult. I would never use the "c" word and take the point.
To label me as sexist on the use of one word and to suggest that I was in the habit of making sexist posts is unfounded and simply untrue.
I suppose your latest attempt at hitting on the tube drivers was going so badly you decided to play the man. |
Very strange, but lets leave it, or I will at least. | |
| |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 08:49 - Nov 26 with 617 views | Herbivore |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 20:17 - Nov 25 by giant_stow |
Why do people keep on putting the Torie's disgraceful behavior in turning tfl's pandemic funding on me? Pages back, I blamed them for that too!
The difference of opinion is (or should have been) in how to deal with that.
I think the tube drivers could show solidarity to their fellow transport workers who stand to bare the brunt of their campaign - the money has to be saved somewhere - this isn't ideals we're talking about - it's the here and now. That's to answer your last question - they'd help stop cuts elsewhere either in bus routes in mainly poorer areas or in other jobs. [Post edited 25 Nov 2021 20:19]
|
Isn't it the role of the union the bus drivers are affiliated with (Unite I think) to fight their corner? Ultimately you don't get better working conditions for all by just acquiescing to employers' demands purely because your situation could be worse or because others may be worse off. That's the very definition of a race to the bottom. | |
| |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 10:15 - Nov 26 with 567 views | Herbivore |
But the cleaners!!! | |
| |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 10:28 - Nov 26 with 551 views | noggin |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 20:17 - Nov 25 by giant_stow |
Why do people keep on putting the Torie's disgraceful behavior in turning tfl's pandemic funding on me? Pages back, I blamed them for that too!
The difference of opinion is (or should have been) in how to deal with that.
I think the tube drivers could show solidarity to their fellow transport workers who stand to bare the brunt of their campaign - the money has to be saved somewhere - this isn't ideals we're talking about - it's the here and now. That's to answer your last question - they'd help stop cuts elsewhere either in bus routes in mainly poorer areas or in other jobs. [Post edited 25 Nov 2021 20:19]
|
Look where carrying on regardless got nurses and paramedics over the last few years. Their determination to treat patients, whatever the financial restraints, has led to them having up to 30% of their personal spending power removed by the tories. Years of pay stagnation because "We have to make cuts". Of course, during those years, the politicians have done very nicely thank you. [Post edited 26 Nov 2021 10:31]
| |
| |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 10:37 - Nov 26 with 539 views | giant_stow |
I wouldn't jump down your throat ever - far too reasonable.
However you link may have something to do with this:
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/london-tube-underground-strike-action-tod
(i can't link to the post, but titled 'frequent trains are still running) so perhaps the strike isn't that well supported afterall and if so I apologize to those decent tube drivers and redirect my ire to the only the union.)
Mind you further down, there's this:
"Leanne Smallman, 30, a retail worker, said: “I’m really cross now I have to get a bus and will be half an hour late.
“I think it’s terrible the tube workers are stopping the public going about their business over petty grievances.”
This is also interesting from a tube driver who rang LBC (some may say hes a ringer, but he seems to know his stuff):
Or for those who didn't believe my context posts yesterday, here's talk of having to shut whole tube lines:
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/tfl-financial-crisis-tube-line-closed-
... Of course, i understand that this news item would go out on the day of the strike and that this whole thing is part of a wider battle between govt and london, but all the same...
Edit: to add the link about possible bus service cuts: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/london-underground-tube-bus-services-cycl
[Post edited 26 Nov 2021 10:44]
| |
| |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 10:47 - Nov 26 with 527 views | You_Bloo_Right |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 10:37 - Nov 26 by giant_stow |
I wouldn't jump down your throat ever - far too reasonable.
However you link may have something to do with this:
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/london-tube-underground-strike-action-tod
(i can't link to the post, but titled 'frequent trains are still running) so perhaps the strike isn't that well supported afterall and if so I apologize to those decent tube drivers and redirect my ire to the only the union.)
Mind you further down, there's this:
"Leanne Smallman, 30, a retail worker, said: “I’m really cross now I have to get a bus and will be half an hour late.
“I think it’s terrible the tube workers are stopping the public going about their business over petty grievances.”
This is also interesting from a tube driver who rang LBC (some may say hes a ringer, but he seems to know his stuff):
Or for those who didn't believe my context posts yesterday, here's talk of having to shut whole tube lines:
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/tfl-financial-crisis-tube-line-closed-
... Of course, i understand that this news item would go out on the day of the strike and that this whole thing is part of a wider battle between govt and london, but all the same...
Edit: to add the link about possible bus service cuts: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/london-underground-tube-bus-services-cycl
[Post edited 26 Nov 2021 10:44]
|
I don't want to rehearse all the previous discussion - I am clearly as entrenched as you and continuing to throw grenades at each other when we should be planning the Christmas truce football match seems pointless.
So agree to disagree by all means but "decent tube drivers" as opposed to what? | |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
