| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 09:27 - Nov 25 with 1086 views | Herbivore |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 09:13 - Nov 25 by giant_stow |
Educate me then boss: put the other side. Mostly, I'm just getting abuse, down-arrows and tribal party political stuff back. |
The alternative viewpoints have been put to you but you choose to ignore them. Where's the anger at the bosses forcing the union into a position where they feel the need to strike? Why the desire to have a race to the bottom where people just accept working conditions that they shouldn't have to accept? Why are you not campaigning for TfL being better funded rather than insisting some have to go without? You claim to care for the little guy, yet your anger is directed solely towards working folk and not the high earning bosses, and ultimately also the wealthy politicians, whose decisions have led to things getting to this point. |  |
|  |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 09:36 - Nov 25 with 1058 views | You_Bloo_Right |
The thing is that Trades Unions were set up, largely around industries, specialisms, etc - particular groups of workers if you will, to protect their members' interests and give those workers a "voice".
You have couched your argument very much as if the RMT want to "stick it to the man". I suggest that is a long way from the truth. The RMT, as is their stated aim, want to protect jobs and conditions for their members. As others have already remarked, withdrawal of labour is seen by all TUs - including the RMT - as an action of last resort and usually only enacted where negotiations have completely broken down (the threat of strike action is another matter altogether of course).
Do the RMT and their members care about "the little guy"? Of course they do. Is it the fault of the RMT membership that significant numbers of people working in London are forced into low paid employment? No, clearly not.
Why is it beholden upon that particular group (the TU) to take account of other workers' (unionised or not) interests? If this is a requirement then repealing the laws surrounding secondary strikes seems the obvious way forward so that other workers can show solidarity with their colleagues and help drive the wider social reforms this country needs. |  |
| |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 09:50 - Nov 25 with 1053 views | giant_stow |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 09:27 - Nov 25 by Herbivore |
The alternative viewpoints have been put to you but you choose to ignore them. Where's the anger at the bosses forcing the union into a position where they feel the need to strike? Why the desire to have a race to the bottom where people just accept working conditions that they shouldn't have to accept? Why are you not campaigning for TfL being better funded rather than insisting some have to go without? You claim to care for the little guy, yet your anger is directed solely towards working folk and not the high earning bosses, and ultimately also the wealthy politicians, whose decisions have led to things getting to this point. |
Its nice not to be blamed for capitalism or told I'm a selfish ***, so thanks for that. I believe I've addressed the alt view point when its actually been put to me, but to take your points one by one:
"Where's the anger at the bosses forcing the union into a position where they feel the need to strike?"
I believe the bosses haven't asked *that* much of drivers (who site pretty compared to many of their fellow transport workers). Each driver will have to do 4 nights per year. Better than losing your job in a 'business' that's lost 30% of its revenue. Compare that to companies who lay people off in similar circumstances. And did they really *need* to strike over this? I think that's quite a loaded word to use.
"Why the desire to have a race to the bottom where people just accept working conditions that they shouldn't have to accept?"
What race to the bottom? Who are tube drivers competing against here in such a race? Just lazy knee-jerking. And why shouldn't they have to accept this? I repeat Tfl is skint and looking at cutting 100 bus routes out of 800-ish - what about showing a bit of solidarity with those bus workers?
"Why are you not campaigning for TfL being better funded rather than insisting some have to go without?"
You're blaming one individual for the Covid and the failings of Govt? This just isn't fair - I hereby blame you for climate change. I criticized govt for not stepping up the funding earlier btw.
"You claim to care for the little guy, yet your anger is directed solely towards working folk..."
Tbh, this reeks of snobbery - are the cleaners, shop workers, nurses not working folk? Do you have to be in a unionised profession to be considered worthy of such a title? Compared to such people, tube drivers are not the victims, but the relatively wealthy oppressors, making such peoples' lives much harder.
"and not the high earning bosses...."
'this point' has been brought about by a pandemic. The bosses may well be overpaid, but they have a limited budget set by govt and revenue - the drivers don't seem to recognize this - its just about protecting what they have.
', and ultimately also the wealthy politicians, whose decisions have led to things getting to this point.'
I've also blamed the politicians in the govt for letting it get to this point. I think they should stump up more money to TFL, but instead of giving that to the tube drivers, I'd like to see it go towards keeping bus services running and trains maintained, thus potentially saving jobs and keeping transport services available to often poorer people in suburbs without any other means of transport.
THanks for engaging at last though. [Post edited 25 Nov 2021 9:51]
|  |
| |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 09:55 - Nov 25 with 1045 views | Herbivore |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 09:50 - Nov 25 by giant_stow |
Its nice not to be blamed for capitalism or told I'm a selfish ***, so thanks for that. I believe I've addressed the alt view point when its actually been put to me, but to take your points one by one:
"Where's the anger at the bosses forcing the union into a position where they feel the need to strike?"
I believe the bosses haven't asked *that* much of drivers (who site pretty compared to many of their fellow transport workers). Each driver will have to do 4 nights per year. Better than losing your job in a 'business' that's lost 30% of its revenue. Compare that to companies who lay people off in similar circumstances. And did they really *need* to strike over this? I think that's quite a loaded word to use.
"Why the desire to have a race to the bottom where people just accept working conditions that they shouldn't have to accept?"
What race to the bottom? Who are tube drivers competing against here in such a race? Just lazy knee-jerking. And why shouldn't they have to accept this? I repeat Tfl is skint and looking at cutting 100 bus routes out of 800-ish - what about showing a bit of solidarity with those bus workers?
"Why are you not campaigning for TfL being better funded rather than insisting some have to go without?"
You're blaming one individual for the Covid and the failings of Govt? This just isn't fair - I hereby blame you for climate change. I criticized govt for not stepping up the funding earlier btw.
"You claim to care for the little guy, yet your anger is directed solely towards working folk..."
Tbh, this reeks of snobbery - are the cleaners, shop workers, nurses not working folk? Do you have to be in a unionised profession to be considered worthy of such a title? Compared to such people, tube drivers are not the victims, but the relatively wealthy oppressors, making such peoples' lives much harder.
"and not the high earning bosses...."
'this point' has been brought about by a pandemic. The bosses may well be overpaid, but they have a limited budget set by govt and revenue - the drivers don't seem to recognize this - its just about protecting what they have.
', and ultimately also the wealthy politicians, whose decisions have led to things getting to this point.'
I've also blamed the politicians in the govt for letting it get to this point. I think they should stump up more money to TFL, but instead of giving that to the tube drivers, I'd like to see it go towards keeping bus services running and trains maintained, thus potentially saving jobs and keeping transport services available to often poorer people in suburbs without any other means of transport.
THanks for engaging at last though. [Post edited 25 Nov 2021 9:51]
|
That doesn't really address my points, it's just more of you shouting that you don't like tube drivers and think they're unreasonable. It seems you either don't understand the arguments being put to you or you don't want to hear them, so there's not really much point in engaging further. You carry on getting angry entirely at working people who want decent working conditions, mate. | |
| |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 09:55 - Nov 25 with 1046 views | giant_stow |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 09:36 - Nov 25 by You_Bloo_Right |
The thing is that Trades Unions were set up, largely around industries, specialisms, etc - particular groups of workers if you will, to protect their members' interests and give those workers a "voice".
You have couched your argument very much as if the RMT want to "stick it to the man". I suggest that is a long way from the truth. The RMT, as is their stated aim, want to protect jobs and conditions for their members. As others have already remarked, withdrawal of labour is seen by all TUs - including the RMT - as an action of last resort and usually only enacted where negotiations have completely broken down (the threat of strike action is another matter altogether of course).
Do the RMT and their members care about "the little guy"? Of course they do. Is it the fault of the RMT membership that significant numbers of people working in London are forced into low paid employment? No, clearly not.
Why is it beholden upon that particular group (the TU) to take account of other workers' (unionised or not) interests? If this is a requirement then repealing the laws surrounding secondary strikes seems the obvious way forward so that other workers can show solidarity with their colleagues and help drive the wider social reforms this country needs. |
For any other union, I would accept what you say without argument at all. With the RMT though, they have already successfully ensured that their members are well remunerated and protected. Now is not the moment to push when so many others are suffering. I'm not blaming tube drivers for that suffering - I'm saying that they could show some solidarity and not pile on more pain to the little guy. | |
| |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 09:57 - Nov 25 with 1044 views | Darth_Koont |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 09:50 - Nov 25 by giant_stow |
Its nice not to be blamed for capitalism or told I'm a selfish ***, so thanks for that. I believe I've addressed the alt view point when its actually been put to me, but to take your points one by one:
"Where's the anger at the bosses forcing the union into a position where they feel the need to strike?"
I believe the bosses haven't asked *that* much of drivers (who site pretty compared to many of their fellow transport workers). Each driver will have to do 4 nights per year. Better than losing your job in a 'business' that's lost 30% of its revenue. Compare that to companies who lay people off in similar circumstances. And did they really *need* to strike over this? I think that's quite a loaded word to use.
"Why the desire to have a race to the bottom where people just accept working conditions that they shouldn't have to accept?"
What race to the bottom? Who are tube drivers competing against here in such a race? Just lazy knee-jerking. And why shouldn't they have to accept this? I repeat Tfl is skint and looking at cutting 100 bus routes out of 800-ish - what about showing a bit of solidarity with those bus workers?
"Why are you not campaigning for TfL being better funded rather than insisting some have to go without?"
You're blaming one individual for the Covid and the failings of Govt? This just isn't fair - I hereby blame you for climate change. I criticized govt for not stepping up the funding earlier btw.
"You claim to care for the little guy, yet your anger is directed solely towards working folk..."
Tbh, this reeks of snobbery - are the cleaners, shop workers, nurses not working folk? Do you have to be in a unionised profession to be considered worthy of such a title? Compared to such people, tube drivers are not the victims, but the relatively wealthy oppressors, making such peoples' lives much harder.
"and not the high earning bosses...."
'this point' has been brought about by a pandemic. The bosses may well be overpaid, but they have a limited budget set by govt and revenue - the drivers don't seem to recognize this - its just about protecting what they have.
', and ultimately also the wealthy politicians, whose decisions have led to things getting to this point.'
I've also blamed the politicians in the govt for letting it get to this point. I think they should stump up more money to TFL, but instead of giving that to the tube drivers, I'd like to see it go towards keeping bus services running and trains maintained, thus potentially saving jobs and keeping transport services available to often poorer people in suburbs without any other means of transport.
THanks for engaging at last though. [Post edited 25 Nov 2021 9:51]
|
TLDR?
Daily Telegraph readers of the world unite! |  |
| |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 09:58 - Nov 25 with 1043 views | giant_stow |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 09:55 - Nov 25 by Herbivore |
That doesn't really address my points, it's just more of you shouting that you don't like tube drivers and think they're unreasonable. It seems you either don't understand the arguments being put to you or you don't want to hear them, so there's not really much point in engaging further. You carry on getting angry entirely at working people who want decent working conditions, mate. |
oh no you don't - I addressed your points - you just don't like my answers. That's fine, but don't try and gaslight me by telling me I'm shouting or patronise me by telling me I don't understand. That's weak, mate. | |
| |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 10:02 - Nov 25 with 1033 views | Herbivore |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 09:58 - Nov 25 by giant_stow |
oh no you don't - I addressed your points - you just don't like my answers. That's fine, but don't try and gaslight me by telling me I'm shouting or patronise me by telling me I don't understand. That's weak, mate. |
Gaslighting you? Come off it.
You aren't addressing the points I've made, you're just making the same points you've always made over and over again. What you want is for the tube drivers to accept working conditions that aren't acceptable to them because it could be worse for them. That's classic race to the bottom thinking. I would rather support people who are standing up for their rights as workers even if it does lead to some disruption and inconvenience. We don't create a better, fairer society by telling working people to shut up and stop complaining. | |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 10:05 - Nov 25 with 1028 views | J2BLUE |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 20:43 - Nov 24 by Oldboy |
Lovely that.
Having said that....
No, nothing to change. |
Thanks for the upvote. Makes it all worthwhile. |  |
| |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 10:05 - Nov 25 with 1028 views | giant_stow |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 09:57 - Nov 25 by Darth_Koont |
TLDR?
Daily Telegraph readers of the world unite! |
I was asked to answer Herbivor's post - there was no way to do that quickly and I wanted to do him the courtesy of a proper reply, unlike the abusive ones that you and many others have dished out.
I find those replies strangely affirming though - when the 'other side' can only resort to such tactics, you know their position is probably indefensible. | |
| |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 10:07 - Nov 25 with 1024 views | Herbivore |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 10:05 - Nov 25 by giant_stow |
I was asked to answer Herbivor's post - there was no way to do that quickly and I wanted to do him the courtesy of a proper reply, unlike the abusive ones that you and many others have dished out.
I find those replies strangely affirming though - when the 'other side' can only resort to such tactics, you know their position is probably indefensible. |
I don't think that's what it is, mate. | |
| |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 10:10 - Nov 25 with 1017 views | giant_stow |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 10:07 - Nov 25 by Herbivore |
I don't think that's what it is, mate. |
Wonderful debating again - you win. | |
| |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 10:14 - Nov 25 with 1013 views | Darth_Koont |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 10:05 - Nov 25 by giant_stow |
I was asked to answer Herbivor's post - there was no way to do that quickly and I wanted to do him the courtesy of a proper reply, unlike the abusive ones that you and many others have dished out.
I find those replies strangely affirming though - when the 'other side' can only resort to such tactics, you know their position is probably indefensible. |
No.
It seems that you’re entirely trapped in some freakish idea that workplace organising to protect pay and conditions is worse for people and society in the long run.
That’s ignorant by any rational and historical measure. | |
| |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 10:21 - Nov 25 with 1002 views | giant_stow |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 10:14 - Nov 25 by Darth_Koont |
No.
It seems that you’re entirely trapped in some freakish idea that workplace organising to protect pay and conditions is worse for people and society in the long run.
That’s ignorant by any rational and historical measure. |
Its freakish to think about the impact of strike action on the many and not the few already well looked after few? Ok boss, nice socialism there - i'm alright jack. | |
| |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 11:44 - Nov 25 with 959 views | Darth_Koont |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 10:21 - Nov 25 by giant_stow |
Its freakish to think about the impact of strike action on the many and not the few already well looked after few? Ok boss, nice socialism there - i'm alright jack. |
We’re getting to the heart of it now.
Why do you thing workplace organising is socialist? Any more than universal healthcare, education and welfare support?
Unionising, and the industrial action that can come with it, is part of a self-respecting modern democracy.
What’s your alternative solution? | |
| |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 12:09 - Nov 25 with 924 views | leitrimblue |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 18:33 - Nov 24 by Oldboy |
Chicken, chips & beans for tea tonight. |
How was yer dinner? Can't go wrong with chips an beans. Goes with everything |  | | |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 12:57 - Nov 25 with 883 views | You_Bloo_Right |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 09:55 - Nov 25 by giant_stow |
For any other union, I would accept what you say without argument at all. With the RMT though, they have already successfully ensured that their members are well remunerated and protected. Now is not the moment to push when so many others are suffering. I'm not blaming tube drivers for that suffering - I'm saying that they could show some solidarity and not pile on more pain to the little guy. |
So in order not to temporarily inconvenience "the little guy" you want the RMT (and only the RMT) to ignore their obligation to the membership as they see it to protect a reasonable work/life balance. You also want, also so as not to cause a short-term difficulty to "the little guy", some of the RMT members (just the tube drivers) to make their own lives worse in the long term.
I don't think it is in the best interests of the people you profess to be concerned about for the rest of us to allow our own working conditions to suffer. That does sound like the race to the bottom that others have mentioned.
Why don't we help "the little guy" get unionised and help them in their own struggle to improve their lot (whether that be pay, conditions, contract of employment, etc)? | |
| |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 13:20 - Nov 25 with 855 views | XYZ |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 07:43 - Nov 25 by giant_stow |
I haven't complained on my own behalf once in this thread. All my comments have been about the effects on poorer people, so tbh, fck you. |
Yeah, because you're always on here fighting for the little guy.
This post has been edited by an administrator |  | | |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 13:21 - Nov 25 with 848 views | noggin |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 12:57 - Nov 25 by You_Bloo_Right |
So in order not to temporarily inconvenience "the little guy" you want the RMT (and only the RMT) to ignore their obligation to the membership as they see it to protect a reasonable work/life balance. You also want, also so as not to cause a short-term difficulty to "the little guy", some of the RMT members (just the tube drivers) to make their own lives worse in the long term.
I don't think it is in the best interests of the people you profess to be concerned about for the rest of us to allow our own working conditions to suffer. That does sound like the race to the bottom that others have mentioned.
Why don't we help "the little guy" get unionised and help them in their own struggle to improve their lot (whether that be pay, conditions, contract of employment, etc)? |
Now you're sounding like Corbyn you bloody marxist. |  |
| |
| You can type "twit".... on 13:22 - Nov 25 with 847 views | Bloots |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 13:20 - Nov 25 by XYZ |
Yeah, because you're always on here fighting for the little guy.
This post has been edited by an administrator |
....you don't need the asterisk.
Unless you are meaning something else, in which case there's little need for the abuse.
Even if he is a budgie. |  |
| Elite Level Poster: Elite Level Supporter: Elite Level Human |
| |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 13:25 - Nov 25 with 826 views | You_Bloo_Right |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 13:21 - Nov 25 by noggin |
Now you're sounding like Corbyn you bloody marxist. |
I suppose I should declare an interest.
I am, in fact, Jack Dash (or is it Jimmy Reid?). | |
| |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 13:42 - Nov 25 with 791 views | Oldboy |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 12:09 - Nov 25 by leitrimblue |
How was yer dinner? Can't go wrong with chips an beans. Goes with everything |
It was lovely thanks.
Moved on to breakfast.
This morning I had 2 slices of toasted fruit loaf, butter and blackcurrant jam.
Also, while I have you here, do you think bananas are overrated? |  | | |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 13:45 - Nov 25 with 786 views | Crawfordsboot |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 10:02 - Nov 25 by Herbivore |
Gaslighting you? Come off it.
You aren't addressing the points I've made, you're just making the same points you've always made over and over again. What you want is for the tube drivers to accept working conditions that aren't acceptable to them because it could be worse for them. That's classic race to the bottom thinking. I would rather support people who are standing up for their rights as workers even if it does lead to some disruption and inconvenience. We don't create a better, fairer society by telling working people to shut up and stop complaining. |
There are some interesting points being made on different sides of this topic.
Surely by definition a Unionised industry is organised to protect and improve the working conditions of its members and usually to increase its membership numbers.
The union will have responsibility to its members but not to society as a whole.
Where a union represents workers that are poorly paid and have bad working conditions they can serve a valuable purpose. On the other hand where unionised workers are seen to enjoy better terms and conditions than the majority of workers enjoy it is not unreasonable for the general public to view their strike action as selfish and damaging to the general working community and public.
So some strikes are justified but not all are. Also with the benefit of hindsight we can see that many strikes took place in order to protect dying industries and to try to protect shrinking unions. Think coal and print unions. Both sides in the above debate have some right on their side. The big question is how can a society enable workers rights whilst at the same time ensure that society is not held to ransome by unions controlling key industries. |  | | |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 13:53 - Nov 25 with 761 views | leitrimblue |
| Entitled higher tax rate payers… on 13:42 - Nov 25 by Oldboy |
It was lovely thanks.
Moved on to breakfast.
This morning I had 2 slices of toasted fruit loaf, butter and blackcurrant jam.
Also, while I have you here, do you think bananas are overrated? |
Depends! Their great in a Knickerbocker glory obviously. On their own I prefer um to an apple but they can't touch a raspberry or actually any of the berrie family. Nice breakfast. Just burnt some toast I was gonna snack on! | | | |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
