| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! 06:44 - Dec 8 with 4414 views | gordon |
Those players have been hung out to dry by the decision-making at the club - sacking the manager and the whole coaching staff and then replacing them with someone who they've basically met for an hour before a run of 3 difficult league games and cup embarrassment on TV.
And obviously, people in football with any interest in the job will see those scenes from Charlton, know that Paul Cook has a reputation for basically being a good manager at this level, see the investment and the smarmy CEO and won't touch this with a bargepole.
The idea that Warnock would come here and work with Ashton, or that Ashton would be willing to hire him is nonsensical, Warnock would have Ashton on toast - it's obviously going to be someone relatively inexperienced so that Ashton doesn't lose influence/power within the club. |  | | |  |
| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 09:25 - Dec 8 with 692 views | portmanking |
| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 09:23 - Dec 8 by Churchman |
So no actual evidence then. Just putting two and two together. Well, it’s a view. If you are right, Ashton needs calling out for telling lies. He needs challenging and removing if proved. But until it’s proved, he gets an even break from me.
What I am unhappy about is that if Cook was their man they should have given him the January window and supported him, at least until The spring. If he really wasn’t their man, he should have gone at the end of last season before the wrecking ball was swung. A bit of a binary view, but that’s just my weirdness. |
I'm in full agreement with your last paragraph. If Cook wasn't going to be allowed to bring in his players (Jacobs, Crooks, Byrne, Dunkley etc.) he should have been moved on before the new season. |  | | |
| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 09:28 - Dec 8 with 680 views | C_Jam_Blue |
Although they said they would take the time it needed, the board need to appoint a new manager quickly. I don't think I've ever seen such hostility from fans towards a team under a caretaker manager, they are usually cut a bit of slack, especially an ex-player. If this atmosphere is allowed to continue into those home games with large crowds, the rifts between management, players and fans will become even more damaging,
A fresh face to rally the players and give us hope required ASAP. | | | |
| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 09:37 - Dec 8 with 647 views | itfcjoe |
| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 08:07 - Dec 8 by portmanking |
I do think we have to interrogate the summer's recruitment and decide whether it was Ashton or Cook pulling the strings in the transfer market. How many of the new faces could you actually say - hand on heart - were a perfect fit for Cook's system/style? Very few if the truth be told.
You do have to wonder if Ashton leant heavily on his agent chums without this so-called data dashboard in operation until next year. |
They've basically said what happened - there was no recruitment structure in place so both Cook and Ashton had to work their contacts to get people in, with the manager giving say so to deals Ashton has done and vice versa no doubt.
Think you can make an educated guess into who was who's for about half of them (Chaplin, Walton, Morsy, Evans, Burgess vs Edwards, Harper, Fraser, Barry, Aluko) and there are some somewhere in between on a spectrum no doubt.
It's up to the manager to utilise the squad, and Cook couldn't, another guy will try now |  |
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| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 09:38 - Dec 8 with 641 views | itfcjoe |
| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 08:16 - Dec 8 by portmanking |
I do fear this has been the Ashton show in the main. I always found it strange that Ashton was pictured with each new signing rather than Cook too. Might be fascinating to look at the agents of all 19 new faces to see if there's some interesting correlations... |
I'm sure there a lot of players you'd deem as 'Stellar' signings for this level | |
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| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 09:40 - Dec 8 with 621 views | londontractorboy57 |
| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 06:54 - Dec 8 by gordon |
This post isn't about Cook - I'm just saying that the atmosphere within the club, between the players and the administrators, between the players and the fans, and between the fans and the owners etc. is all going to be an absolute mess.
Added to the fact that there were already a fair few players in that squad who were brought in to be first choice players and were tossed aside after a few games and replaced, the atmosphere and morale amongst those players must be incredibly low - they won't have any clue what's about to happen with new managers / January transfers - Fraser could be loaned out to Swindon, or the whole team could be built to his style - there's probably 10 or 12 players in similar situations. |
Its been a mess since the early days of MM and before. | | | |
| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 09:45 - Dec 8 with 603 views | gordon |
| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 09:40 - Dec 8 by londontractorboy57 |
Its been a mess since the early days of MM and before. |
Yup - but the takeover was an opportunity to reset the dial - but the hubristic, short-termist nonsense in the summer from people who had no clue how difficult it is to get out of League One has left us in an awful position.
A bit more caution, a bit more patience, a bit less demolition. Because at the end of the day, Scott Fraser hasn't done a single thing that Alan Judge couldn't have done; likewise Kyle Edwards and Keanan Bennetts, Cameron Burgess and James Wilson etc. etc. | | | |
| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 09:46 - Dec 8 with 601 views | portmanking |
| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 09:38 - Dec 8 by itfcjoe |
I'm sure there a lot of players you'd deem as 'Stellar' signings for this level |
My argument throughout hasn't been that they aren't 'stellar' names. It's more that they were terrible fits for Cook's system. As you say, someone else might be able to get a better tune out of them in a different setup. If not, then the buck really will stop with Ashton. | | | |
| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 09:47 - Dec 8 with 598 views | Keaneish |
| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 09:37 - Dec 8 by itfcjoe |
They've basically said what happened - there was no recruitment structure in place so both Cook and Ashton had to work their contacts to get people in, with the manager giving say so to deals Ashton has done and vice versa no doubt.
Think you can make an educated guess into who was who's for about half of them (Chaplin, Walton, Morsy, Evans, Burgess vs Edwards, Harper, Fraser, Barry, Aluko) and there are some somewhere in between on a spectrum no doubt.
It's up to the manager to utilise the squad, and Cook couldn't, another guy will try now |
Couldn't, "utilise" the squad? Let's not re-write history so soon to suit a different narrative. The truth is, "Cook was utilising the squad but it was inconsistent". Given time, as always happens with Cook, he'd have come good. Now look at the mess that impatience has caused.
Looking from the outside in is easy. In that dressing room is what counts and given Cook's standing in the game, the respect he commands and loyalty shown by the majority of the squad, it's going to be an enormous task for someone to lift and gel that team back together now. The ramifications of the decision are huge and so incredibly short-sighted its a new low for ITFC.
We are where we are now. I'm going to back-track and agree with BlueBadger now. It may well be a case for a Warnock to come in short-term because a young up and coming rookie could well be a lamb to the sluaghter. |  |
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| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 09:51 - Dec 8 with 577 views | NthQldITFC |
| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 06:51 - Dec 8 by wkj |
Is Ahston really all that bad? I mean, he's hardly been caught with his pants down about anything? DGMW - I don't see the man as the ITFC messiah as some like to, and he could very well end up being a villain here - but surely it's to soon to be riding him as the escape goat.
That said, yes, Warnock coming here under Ashton would not be an easy relationship you'd imagine. And yes, the decision-making at the club has probably raised many more questions than have been answered. |
This with massive great knobs on for me.
We're a chronically traumatised support, which has been unexpectedly offered an expensive life-changing drug to miraculously cure us after 15 years of misery. The drug isn't working (yet?) and the euphoria of the initial promise is starting to wear off, so now every doctor who comes into our room is an absolutely useless tosspot in our eyes, and gets both barrels between the eyes as soon as possible.
This particular doctor was instrumental in providing an unexpectedly large range of top notch treatments in very short order, but his bedside manner seems to be irritating us, so it must be all his fault now.
"Nurse, a sedative for this one please." |  |
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| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 09:53 - Dec 8 with 570 views | gordon |
| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 09:51 - Dec 8 by NthQldITFC |
This with massive great knobs on for me.
We're a chronically traumatised support, which has been unexpectedly offered an expensive life-changing drug to miraculously cure us after 15 years of misery. The drug isn't working (yet?) and the euphoria of the initial promise is starting to wear off, so now every doctor who comes into our room is an absolutely useless tosspot in our eyes, and gets both barrels between the eyes as soon as possible.
This particular doctor was instrumental in providing an unexpectedly large range of top notch treatments in very short order, but his bedside manner seems to be irritating us, so it must be all his fault now.
"Nurse, a sedative for this one please." |
You think we should have been more patient with Cook then? | | | |
| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 09:55 - Dec 8 with 566 views | monty_radio |
| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 09:09 - Dec 8 by portmanking |
I'm just looking at it objectively. Cook's gone, what's done is done. But I do think he was on a hiding to nothing because the recruitment was by no means a good fit for his way of playing. |
Last night was indeed more than disappointing, but it didn't seem unfamiliar, but rather a performance drawn from the bottom of Cook's barrel. All this Ashton stuff, including Gordon (whom I routinely really like as a poster) calling him smarmy no doubt helps to burn off some anger, but is based on pure speculation, a sharp suit and a dose of vitriol from way out West.
Wandering about the pitch looking as if we didn't want to be there had nothing to do with Ashton or fiiting a way of playing, but simply lacked the grit and effort that the journey of 3000+ fans demanded. To turn on Ashton' at this earliest of stages is hopelessly counter-productive. | |
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| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 09:58 - Dec 8 with 556 views | mrshallisfit |
| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 09:45 - Dec 8 by gordon |
Yup - but the takeover was an opportunity to reset the dial - but the hubristic, short-termist nonsense in the summer from people who had no clue how difficult it is to get out of League One has left us in an awful position.
A bit more caution, a bit more patience, a bit less demolition. Because at the end of the day, Scott Fraser hasn't done a single thing that Alan Judge couldn't have done; likewise Kyle Edwards and Keanan Bennetts, Cameron Burgess and James Wilson etc. etc. |
James Wilson would have been better than all our CBS bar Edmundson. In fact, those two would have been pretty good together. | | | |
| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 09:58 - Dec 8 with 555 views | itfcjoe |
| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 08:38 - Dec 8 by portmanking |
Huge difference.
Dave Bowman had worked with McCarthy for the best part of a decade. By that point he knew full well the DNA of a typical Mick signing.
Ashton had been with Cook for five minutes before embarking on a recruitment drive.
Many of the players clearly didn't fit Cook's system. Why sign Burns, an out-and-out winger, for a 4-2-3-1 where Cook plays inside forwards in the '3' rather than touchline hugging wingers? Celina was never going to have the work ethic to play Cook's '10' which has heaps of defensive and attacking responsibilities.
Cook didn't look capable of putting a side together because he was trying to make it work with the faces he'd been given rather than playing round pegs in round holes. |
You say that about Burns, and whilst I don't disagree with type of player, we missed him badly and he's been a stand out player
Aluko was there, but yet Cook was keen to get Burns back in | |
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| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 10:08 - Dec 8 with 518 views | portmanking |
| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 09:58 - Dec 8 by itfcjoe |
You say that about Burns, and whilst I don't disagree with type of player, we missed him badly and he's been a stand out player
Aluko was there, but yet Cook was keen to get Burns back in |
I don't disagree that Burns has delivered since signing. But in many ways his form left Cook stuck between a rock and a hard place - unable to implement his style/ethos and hoping that players like Burns maintain consistency to overlook the haphazard structure of the team. | | | |
| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 10:08 - Dec 8 with 517 views | itfcjoe |
| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 09:46 - Dec 8 by portmanking |
My argument throughout hasn't been that they aren't 'stellar' names. It's more that they were terrible fits for Cook's system. As you say, someone else might be able to get a better tune out of them in a different setup. If not, then the buck really will stop with Ashton. |
'Stellar' was a joke - check their agents....
Part of being a manager is being able to adapt to players you have and Cook failed badly at that last season and with the mix this year was also failing.
As a club, it is right that someone like Ashton can say you can't have 30 year old journeyman Jacobs, have 22 year old Edwards because without doing that where are you going to get profits from which are needed?
Sounds like he wanted Dunkley and Byrne in january, we can't just put together his old WIgan team, which was a well paid Championship team 2 years ago - it's just desperate to try and do that.
Charlton were abject earlier in the season, Johnnie Jackson has totally turned them round very quickly, with a lot less quality than we have. Time for someone to step up, big pressure on Ashton to find that someone | |
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| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 10:12 - Dec 8 with 507 views | portmanking |
| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 10:08 - Dec 8 by itfcjoe |
'Stellar' was a joke - check their agents....
Part of being a manager is being able to adapt to players you have and Cook failed badly at that last season and with the mix this year was also failing.
As a club, it is right that someone like Ashton can say you can't have 30 year old journeyman Jacobs, have 22 year old Edwards because without doing that where are you going to get profits from which are needed?
Sounds like he wanted Dunkley and Byrne in january, we can't just put together his old WIgan team, which was a well paid Championship team 2 years ago - it's just desperate to try and do that.
Charlton were abject earlier in the season, Johnnie Jackson has totally turned them round very quickly, with a lot less quality than we have. Time for someone to step up, big pressure on Ashton to find that someone |
Interesting! I rest my case in certain respects then re. Ashton.
But what resale value is there in Kyle Edwards who's clearly floundering playing his first full season in senior football with zero goals or assists?
If Jacobs could have delivered this year and helped us to promotion, would that not have ticked the boxes for those viewing 2021/22 as sh*t or bust?
You'd get your profits elsewhere from the likes of Edmundson. | | | |
| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 10:15 - Dec 8 with 496 views | itfcjoe |
| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 10:12 - Dec 8 by portmanking |
Interesting! I rest my case in certain respects then re. Ashton.
But what resale value is there in Kyle Edwards who's clearly floundering playing his first full season in senior football with zero goals or assists?
If Jacobs could have delivered this year and helped us to promotion, would that not have ticked the boxes for those viewing 2021/22 as sh*t or bust?
You'd get your profits elsewhere from the likes of Edmundson. |
Jacobs can't get in the Pompey team and we were going to pay a fee for him - whats to suggest he'd have fired us up this year? He's been injured more than he's played.
There is enough quality in this squad for it to be sh*t or bust - just needs someone to now get a tune out of them | |
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| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 10:16 - Dec 8 with 489 views | Herbivore |
| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 09:58 - Dec 8 by itfcjoe |
You say that about Burns, and whilst I don't disagree with type of player, we missed him badly and he's been a stand out player
Aluko was there, but yet Cook was keen to get Burns back in |
Indeed. The narrative that Burns has been thrust on Cook and doesn't fit with his style of play doesn't sit that easily alongside Burns being first pick when fit and us looking a more effective attacking unit with him in the side. |  |
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| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 10:18 - Dec 8 with 484 views | NthQldITFC |
| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 09:53 - Dec 8 by gordon |
You think we should have been more patient with Cook then? |
I'm just about on the 'No' side of the fence. Until very recently I would have said 'Yes', but having seen a couple of performances lately, it looks to me like there's been some sort of psychological collapse within the squad. Whilst I don't think that is necessarily all down to Cook, I also think that he might not be the man to carry us out of it. Perhaps a calmer, more process-driven Head Coach is the way forward, with decent support structures behind him, particularly in the Sports Psychology area.
I was ready to accept inconsistency and even a close failure to make the play-offs this season, as long as there were good signs of something really building, and a really strong finish to the season, given the turnover and investment.
But, although I'm guessing as I have no inside info, I tend to suspect that the theory that Cook was dependent upon Richardson, does actually hold water. What is more clear is that the coaching staff he recruited were not of suitable stature or experience, and possibly not of suitable character.
Where I might give him a little more slack is that I thought the club had put in place a Sports Psychology department, which presumably has a degree of independence from the manager and football coaching team. If such a thing is functioning yet, it is clearly not functioning well to say the least. Perhaps it hasn't had enough time or influence to start being effective?
Finally, us fans. We have seen a complete transformation of the club from management, playing staff, infrastructure, ethos and ownership. People say other clubs have made as many signings, and got off to a good start. True. But it doesn't always happen, and if we want to recover as a club we have to take into account the monumental changes here, and try to find a bit more patience. For example, the raging at Ashton this morning is absolutely idiotic in my opinion, and makes me want to give up following Town to be honest. | |
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| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 10:19 - Dec 8 with 479 views | portmanking |
| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 10:16 - Dec 8 by Herbivore |
Indeed. The narrative that Burns has been thrust on Cook and doesn't fit with his style of play doesn't sit that easily alongside Burns being first pick when fit and us looking a more effective attacking unit with him in the side. |
Why doesn't it sit easily? Burns is not a Cook-style player in any stretch, unless he was signed to be the attack-minded RB. The fact Burns' early season form was so impressive meant that he was undroppable, but my argument is that Burns alone proves the summer recruitment wasn't based on fitting Cook's system. | | | |
| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 10:21 - Dec 8 with 471 views | Herbivore |
| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 10:19 - Dec 8 by portmanking |
Why doesn't it sit easily? Burns is not a Cook-style player in any stretch, unless he was signed to be the attack-minded RB. The fact Burns' early season form was so impressive meant that he was undroppable, but my argument is that Burns alone proves the summer recruitment wasn't based on fitting Cook's system. |
So why didn't Cook play him as an attacking full back, given he'd got a Cook side in that role in your opinion? | |
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| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 10:21 - Dec 8 with 471 views | gordon |
| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 10:18 - Dec 8 by NthQldITFC |
I'm just about on the 'No' side of the fence. Until very recently I would have said 'Yes', but having seen a couple of performances lately, it looks to me like there's been some sort of psychological collapse within the squad. Whilst I don't think that is necessarily all down to Cook, I also think that he might not be the man to carry us out of it. Perhaps a calmer, more process-driven Head Coach is the way forward, with decent support structures behind him, particularly in the Sports Psychology area.
I was ready to accept inconsistency and even a close failure to make the play-offs this season, as long as there were good signs of something really building, and a really strong finish to the season, given the turnover and investment.
But, although I'm guessing as I have no inside info, I tend to suspect that the theory that Cook was dependent upon Richardson, does actually hold water. What is more clear is that the coaching staff he recruited were not of suitable stature or experience, and possibly not of suitable character.
Where I might give him a little more slack is that I thought the club had put in place a Sports Psychology department, which presumably has a degree of independence from the manager and football coaching team. If such a thing is functioning yet, it is clearly not functioning well to say the least. Perhaps it hasn't had enough time or influence to start being effective?
Finally, us fans. We have seen a complete transformation of the club from management, playing staff, infrastructure, ethos and ownership. People say other clubs have made as many signings, and got off to a good start. True. But it doesn't always happen, and if we want to recover as a club we have to take into account the monumental changes here, and try to find a bit more patience. For example, the raging at Ashton this morning is absolutely idiotic in my opinion, and makes me want to give up following Town to be honest. |
When you say raging at Ashton, are you referring to threads like this, or is there other stuff on twitter etc.? | | | |
| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 10:21 - Dec 8 with 468 views | Radlett_blue |
I think this also shows the absolute folly of allowing Cook to replace almost the whole squad and also pack the backroom staff with his inexperienced contacts. We're now in an abject mess and the alternatives seem to be to get in a Warnock-type firefighter or bring in another demolition man.
While Cook hasn't been getting his chosen players to perform, unless we can find a new man to lick the squad into shape I'd think we were better off giving Cook the rest of the season. |  |
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| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 10:25 - Dec 8 with 456 views | portmanking |
| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 10:21 - Dec 8 by Herbivore |
So why didn't Cook play him as an attacking full back, given he'd got a Cook side in that role in your opinion? |
Because Cook probably hoped KVY would fill that void and not look like a fish out of water. | | | |
| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 10:28 - Dec 8 with 452 views | NthQldITFC |
| We better be prepared for this to get a whole lot worse! on 10:21 - Dec 8 by gordon |
When you say raging at Ashton, are you referring to threads like this, or is there other stuff on twitter etc.? |
I've seen a few posts on here, can't remember if it's this one or not. Raging may be too strong a word perhaps, but it's the tendency to look for the next target as soon as the last one has been dispatched, and then shout about it, that makes me want to puke. | |
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