| With hindsight, what should we have done in the Summer? 15:06 - Dec 8 with 1775 views | jayessess |
Fairly clear now that doing an expensive reboot, under a management and recruitment structure that we weren't ultimately intending to persist with long term wasn't a great plan.
Should we have dismissed Cook, got a first team coach that fit into our structure, started asap on building our recruitment staff? Or told Cook he wouldn't get the resources for such a dramatic turnover and work as far as possible with people already in the building?
Or was chucking the kitchen sink at Cook the only option? |  |
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| With hindsight, what should we have done in the Summer? on 15:15 - Dec 8 with 1710 views | Churchman |
Interesting. This is the one thing I would query with O’Leary and the Board. Perhaps even Ashton, though he technically only started working here June 1st. It’s all seemed a bit ‘hit and hope’ on the management front. The club is and will be radically different structure wise from what Cook signed up to but they must have known that in April.
I think your second paragraph asks a lot of pertinent questions. With the gift of hindsight, it’d have been better to let Cook go at seasons end or earlier and got somebody in they felt fitted their structure. We’ve lost a season. But as I say, we can all be wise after the event. |  | | |
| With hindsight, what should we have done in the Summer? on 15:16 - Dec 8 with 1710 views | BrianTablet |
Spent the cash on cleaning the Cobbold roof. |  |
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| With hindsight, what should we have done in the Summer? on 15:17 - Dec 8 with 1707 views | PJH |
With hindsight it might have been better if Cook had gone at the time of the takeover that he seemed to know nothing about.
At that point he seemed to be unsure whether he was staying or going.
The trouble was that they came out and said that he was their first choice too, so perhaps he was. |  | | |
| With hindsight, what should we have done in the Summer? on 15:22 - Dec 8 with 1664 views | jayessess |
| With hindsight, what should we have done in the Summer? on 15:15 - Dec 8 by Churchman |
Interesting. This is the one thing I would query with O’Leary and the Board. Perhaps even Ashton, though he technically only started working here June 1st. It’s all seemed a bit ‘hit and hope’ on the management front. The club is and will be radically different structure wise from what Cook signed up to but they must have known that in April.
I think your second paragraph asks a lot of pertinent questions. With the gift of hindsight, it’d have been better to let Cook go at seasons end or earlier and got somebody in they felt fitted their structure. We’ve lost a season. But as I say, we can all be wise after the event. |
Yeah, after the event it's probably obvious that we did the wrong thing. But at the time I think lots of people would've taken a very dim view of dismissing Cook in May.
That said, I think there was enough enthusiasm about the takeover that they could've talked people round. | |
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| With hindsight, what should we have done in the Summer? on 15:23 - Dec 8 with 1646 views | Churchman |
| With hindsight, what should we have done in the Summer? on 15:17 - Dec 8 by PJH |
With hindsight it might have been better if Cook had gone at the time of the takeover that he seemed to know nothing about.
At that point he seemed to be unsure whether he was staying or going.
The trouble was that they came out and said that he was their first choice too, so perhaps he was. |
Indeed they did, so we have to accept that he was at the very least one of the favoured choices at the very least - as indeed his record deserves.
What puzzles me is why Lambert was sacked with a takeover imminent. To an extent Evans really dropped the new owners in it. Possibly the answer is that the takeover wasn’t completed until a few weeks after Lambert went and Evans was done with PL. still seems odd to me. | | | |
| With hindsight, what should we have done in the Summer? on 15:30 - Dec 8 with 1614 views | JakeITFC |
Was right to gut the team and the club, was right to buy a lot of players and I think we were shopping in the right markets.
There are definite questions to be asked about the specifics of recruitment now - we are very light in the centre of midfield, have a defence that is still using players that weren't good enough for us two seasons ago and are oversubscribed in the attacking midfield areas.
Think the above all points to a disjointed approach to recruitment that hopefully won't be repeated (lots of references to old school contacts and favours over the presumably data-driven and committee based methodology to come), but I think it is strange and quite unlucky for the crop of players we have assembled to have not provided more of a tune to date. |  | | |
| With hindsight, what should we have done in the Summer? on 15:30 - Dec 8 with 1611 views | jayessess |
| With hindsight, what should we have done in the Summer? on 15:23 - Dec 8 by Churchman |
Indeed they did, so we have to accept that he was at the very least one of the favoured choices at the very least - as indeed his record deserves.
What puzzles me is why Lambert was sacked with a takeover imminent. To an extent Evans really dropped the new owners in it. Possibly the answer is that the takeover wasn’t completed until a few weeks after Lambert went and Evans was done with PL. still seems odd to me. |
Inclined to think that the official story is also the most logical explanation for subsequent events.
Evans decided to dismiss Lambert and employ Cook. He was hoping for more outside investment but ultimately wanted to retain a controlling interest in the club and told Cook as much. Ultimately it transpired that he had to sell and this was a surprise to Cook. The new owners rated Cook as a manager and were happy for him to continue in post for the time being. | |
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| With hindsight, what should we have done in the Summer? on 15:43 - Dec 8 with 1564 views | Darth_Koont |
I think changing everything on and off the pitch needed a little more humility and a lot less hubris.
Expectations (as opposed to hopes and ambitions) were through the roof and immediately there was talk of “no excuses” and suggestions that Cook and co. had almost immediately failed after a disappointing start.
It’s all gotten a bit silly and unnecessary, when if we’d managed expectations a lot better and talked more about trusting the process and a slower build, I think we wouldn’t be where we are now. Nor looking at a new manager with a target on their back if he doesn’t win enough games immediately. |  |
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| With hindsight, what should we have done in the Summer? on 15:48 - Dec 8 with 1513 views | itfcjoe |
If it was a proper business we'd have had Paul Cook re-apply for his job under the new terms of the job as part of a plan to ensure the correct management team was in place |  |
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| With hindsight, what should we have done in the Summer? on 16:00 - Dec 8 with 1420 views | jayessess |
| With hindsight, what should we have done in the Summer? on 15:43 - Dec 8 by Darth_Koont |
I think changing everything on and off the pitch needed a little more humility and a lot less hubris.
Expectations (as opposed to hopes and ambitions) were through the roof and immediately there was talk of “no excuses” and suggestions that Cook and co. had almost immediately failed after a disappointing start.
It’s all gotten a bit silly and unnecessary, when if we’d managed expectations a lot better and talked more about trusting the process and a slower build, I think we wouldn’t be where we are now. Nor looking at a new manager with a target on their back if he doesn’t win enough games immediately. |
But it seems obvious now that this wasn't intended to be a "process" or a "slow build", it was an attempt to assemble a squad of players and a manager good enough to form a new team and win the division at the first attempt. That's why 17 of the 19 signings were aged 23+, why 4 of the 5 loanees were senior pros on big wages, why so many of the new signings were more or less open about expecting to return to their proper level pronto.
It also seems impossible to me that you could possibly go about your business as we did this Summer and feasibly damp down expectations in that way. Maybe if you recruit a bit more sparingly, recruit for future value, tell the manager to make do in some areas, maybe then you can do that. But, what we did? No chance. | |
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| With hindsight, what should we have done in the Summer? on 16:10 - Dec 8 with 1364 views | Darth_Koont |
| With hindsight, what should we have done in the Summer? on 16:00 - Dec 8 by jayessess |
But it seems obvious now that this wasn't intended to be a "process" or a "slow build", it was an attempt to assemble a squad of players and a manager good enough to form a new team and win the division at the first attempt. That's why 17 of the 19 signings were aged 23+, why 4 of the 5 loanees were senior pros on big wages, why so many of the new signings were more or less open about expecting to return to their proper level pronto.
It also seems impossible to me that you could possibly go about your business as we did this Summer and feasibly damp down expectations in that way. Maybe if you recruit a bit more sparingly, recruit for future value, tell the manager to make do in some areas, maybe then you can do that. But, what we did? No chance. |
Now we’ve got Ashton thanking Cook for his time working during a transition period. A period we’re still in according to him. Also talk of this not being a one shot at promotion.
So really we should have been talking about “TransitionPlus” – a desire to do the necessary work and the right things to build a strong team and a club. Leading towards the bigger goal of promotion to the Championship and even the PL. All while seeing if we might get promotion this season anyway.
Instead we’ve sacked a manager and started calling out the team because we’re mid table and inconsistent. And the new manager has to now manage a crisis.
All seems so so avoidable. | |
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| With hindsight, what should we have done in the Summer? on 16:18 - Dec 8 with 1314 views | Churchman |
| With hindsight, what should we have done in the Summer? on 16:00 - Dec 8 by jayessess |
But it seems obvious now that this wasn't intended to be a "process" or a "slow build", it was an attempt to assemble a squad of players and a manager good enough to form a new team and win the division at the first attempt. That's why 17 of the 19 signings were aged 23+, why 4 of the 5 loanees were senior pros on big wages, why so many of the new signings were more or less open about expecting to return to their proper level pronto.
It also seems impossible to me that you could possibly go about your business as we did this Summer and feasibly damp down expectations in that way. Maybe if you recruit a bit more sparingly, recruit for future value, tell the manager to make do in some areas, maybe then you can do that. But, what we did? No chance. |
It was as you describe it. Instant success pursuit. Of course, how often has that worked? - especially in the context of a club undergoing complete change. I think the problem with this is how rubbish last year’s squad were in every way which left owners and manager thinking their hands were forced?
Without knowing the individuals as some on here do (esp Joe) I would not have approached it in the way Cook did. I would not have told the press my intentions for beginners. Secondly, there were players on loan and one or two clearly intent on going. Fine. But the defence really wasn’t that bad and since all teams are built on defence, I’d have left it alone for now, including the keeper.
I don’t know Chambers, but assuming he and Cook didn’t see eye to eye then Chambers had to go. Fine, replace him with Edmundson. Where I’m going with this is that I would have made changes progressively, not all in one hit. This is a naïve view, but I’m coming round to the opinion that the bomb squad way wasn’t necessarily the only way, however much last years lot might have deserved it.
In a completely different world, I was part of a so called team assembled quite like this - the mud at the wall and hope for the best approach. In that instance there was no choice (Brexit), but it took about a year for it to function in any way effectively against the resources devoted to it. It felt the more people thrown in, the less got done and the greater the confusion. Ok the world of football is totally different, but people are people and I can’t help seeing a few similarities. [Post edited 8 Dec 2021 16:19]
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| With hindsight, what should we have done in the Summer? on 17:10 - Dec 8 with 1208 views | J2BLUE |
Purely in hindsight I would have kept Chambers and Wilson. Signed Edmundson. Signed two left backs and a RB. Donacien to cover CB with Nsiala. Decent DM. Morsy (he has not become a bad player overnight).
Then basically signed the same attacking players. |  |
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| With hindsight, what should we have done in the Summer? on 18:14 - Dec 8 with 1108 views | jayessess |
| With hindsight, what should we have done in the Summer? on 16:18 - Dec 8 by Churchman |
It was as you describe it. Instant success pursuit. Of course, how often has that worked? - especially in the context of a club undergoing complete change. I think the problem with this is how rubbish last year’s squad were in every way which left owners and manager thinking their hands were forced?
Without knowing the individuals as some on here do (esp Joe) I would not have approached it in the way Cook did. I would not have told the press my intentions for beginners. Secondly, there were players on loan and one or two clearly intent on going. Fine. But the defence really wasn’t that bad and since all teams are built on defence, I’d have left it alone for now, including the keeper.
I don’t know Chambers, but assuming he and Cook didn’t see eye to eye then Chambers had to go. Fine, replace him with Edmundson. Where I’m going with this is that I would have made changes progressively, not all in one hit. This is a naïve view, but I’m coming round to the opinion that the bomb squad way wasn’t necessarily the only way, however much last years lot might have deserved it.
In a completely different world, I was part of a so called team assembled quite like this - the mud at the wall and hope for the best approach. In that instance there was no choice (Brexit), but it took about a year for it to function in any way effectively against the resources devoted to it. It felt the more people thrown in, the less got done and the greater the confusion. Ok the world of football is totally different, but people are people and I can’t help seeing a few similarities. [Post edited 8 Dec 2021 16:19]
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Whoever you blame for it (and personally I think Cook wildly mis-judged that end of season), I think the possibility of progressive changes in the Summer had largely gone by March. | |
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| With hindsight, what should we have done in the Summer? on 18:53 - Dec 8 with 1030 views | ArnieM |
I think the fundamental problem is just about everyone connected with the Club appears to underestimate just how difficult it is to get out of League One. Throwing money at it clearly hasn’t worked for us , or other Clubs. As someone suggested in another thread , we possible brought the wrong type of player in at this stage in our reboot. Players that would be more suited to the Championship than League One. |  |
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| With hindsight, what should we have done in the Summer? on 18:58 - Dec 8 with 1018 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
Quite clearly they intended to stick with Cook. It was only as time played out and it became obvious that the dip in form when he came in was a reflection of his results rather than purely a dip in form that the plan changed. Sometimes plans do change. It is what you change them to that matters. Now to get the new appointment right. |  |
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| With hindsight, what should we have done in the Summer? on 19:29 - Dec 8 with 949 views | BaaBaaBlue |
My views would now probably be against the grain of most Town fans..
But I would say, with hindsight, forget about trying to get to the Championship in one season, clear some of the deadwood, pick and handful of decent, proven players, and introduce more of our youngsters that obviously have talent.. as small a squad as possible, playing the kind of football we're aching to see, regardless of results
The problem with this club is urgency to achieve.. and that, very clearly, is going to take a lot longer than our impatience can take |  | | |
| With hindsight, what should we have done in the Summer? on 19:30 - Dec 8 with 941 views | Felstow1978 |
| With hindsight, what should we have done in the Summer? on 18:53 - Dec 8 by ArnieM |
I think the fundamental problem is just about everyone connected with the Club appears to underestimate just how difficult it is to get out of League One. Throwing money at it clearly hasn’t worked for us , or other Clubs. As someone suggested in another thread , we possible brought the wrong type of player in at this stage in our reboot. Players that would be more suited to the Championship than League One. |
We seem to forget far too readily the fact that of the teams in League One, 15 have been in the Championship (at some point) and 8 in the Premiership. There is no God-given right for Town fans to expect let alone, demand, promotion out of this division. The fact that we are the lowest-ranked English club to have won a major European competition counts for absolutely nothing. Every one of those other 23 clubs in League One is trying to do exactly the same as us and only 3 at the end of a season will win their way upwards. | |
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| With hindsight, what should we have done in the Summer? on 19:48 - Dec 8 with 883 views | jayessess |
| With hindsight, what should we have done in the Summer? on 18:53 - Dec 8 by ArnieM |
I think the fundamental problem is just about everyone connected with the Club appears to underestimate just how difficult it is to get out of League One. Throwing money at it clearly hasn’t worked for us , or other Clubs. As someone suggested in another thread , we possible brought the wrong type of player in at this stage in our reboot. Players that would be more suited to the Championship than League One. |
Pretty hard to argue that taking the opposition lightly was our downfall after talking up Barrow so much. I think there's a difference between imagining every other team in the division is a pub team we can easily blow past and correctly acknowledging that if everyone at Ipswich Town does their job well we should be one of the division's strongest teams.
Also sceptical about the idea that players can be wrong for League One but right for the Championship. The league above has players who stronger, faster, better than in this one. [Post edited 8 Dec 2021 19:48]
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| With hindsight, what should we have done in the Summer? on 20:07 - Dec 8 with 842 views | monty_radio |
| With hindsight, what should we have done in the Summer? on 19:29 - Dec 8 by BaaBaaBlue |
My views would now probably be against the grain of most Town fans..
But I would say, with hindsight, forget about trying to get to the Championship in one season, clear some of the deadwood, pick and handful of decent, proven players, and introduce more of our youngsters that obviously have talent.. as small a squad as possible, playing the kind of football we're aching to see, regardless of results
The problem with this club is urgency to achieve.. and that, very clearly, is going to take a lot longer than our impatience can take |
But you can see why "urgency" became a watchword when set against the torpor of the decades. Making haste slowly was never likely to pack out P.R. although many of the fans of yesterday might namecheck the idea while not actually attending. | |
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| With hindsight, what should we have done in the Summer? on 21:07 - Dec 8 with 769 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| With hindsight, what should we have done in the Summer? on 19:30 - Dec 8 by Felstow1978 |
We seem to forget far too readily the fact that of the teams in League One, 15 have been in the Championship (at some point) and 8 in the Premiership. There is no God-given right for Town fans to expect let alone, demand, promotion out of this division. The fact that we are the lowest-ranked English club to have won a major European competition counts for absolutely nothing. Every one of those other 23 clubs in League One is trying to do exactly the same as us and only 3 at the end of a season will win their way upwards. |
You are right - not! Crewe and Fleetwood will be gutted if they have not got automatic promotion this season and Sunderland and Portsmouth fans will celebrate as long as they avoid the bottom 4!
Your idea that all clubs in any division are equal remains laughable no matter how many times you repeat it. There are very good reasons why different clubs in each division have very different expectations. | |
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