| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 10:38 - Mar 12 with 3083 views | Guthrum |
Wars are the great destroyers of economies. They gobble up money at an alarming rate, trade is disrupted, large parts of the populace are forced into unproductive occupations (fighting or supplying the troops), refugees are displaced, infrastructure is smashed up. It can eventually lead to the collapse of governments and even nation states.
Even if Russia does manage to conquer Uraine, what will they be left with? A land of broken bridges and ruined cities, full of mines and unexploded ordnance, with maybe a tenth of the population having fled abroad. Reconstruction will take years and cost a vast amount of money. The expense of which might, itself, do much damage to the Russian economy. |  |
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| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 10:44 - Mar 12 with 3047 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 10:38 - Mar 12 by Guthrum |
Wars are the great destroyers of economies. They gobble up money at an alarming rate, trade is disrupted, large parts of the populace are forced into unproductive occupations (fighting or supplying the troops), refugees are displaced, infrastructure is smashed up. It can eventually lead to the collapse of governments and even nation states.
Even if Russia does manage to conquer Uraine, what will they be left with? A land of broken bridges and ruined cities, full of mines and unexploded ordnance, with maybe a tenth of the population having fled abroad. Reconstruction will take years and cost a vast amount of money. The expense of which might, itself, do much damage to the Russian economy. |
It's insanity Guthers and it is only just starting. It is also going to spread in yet unknown ways and it feels like there is literally nothing we can do. |  |
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| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 10:48 - Mar 12 with 3027 views | bluejacko |
| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 10:38 - Mar 12 by Guthrum |
Wars are the great destroyers of economies. They gobble up money at an alarming rate, trade is disrupted, large parts of the populace are forced into unproductive occupations (fighting or supplying the troops), refugees are displaced, infrastructure is smashed up. It can eventually lead to the collapse of governments and even nation states.
Even if Russia does manage to conquer Uraine, what will they be left with? A land of broken bridges and ruined cities, full of mines and unexploded ordnance, with maybe a tenth of the population having fled abroad. Reconstruction will take years and cost a vast amount of money. The expense of which might, itself, do much damage to the Russian economy. |
Not to mention a very pissed off population that will continue with a full scale insurgency against the Russians for years! |  | | |
| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 10:52 - Mar 12 with 2995 views | RegencyBlue |
| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 10:48 - Mar 12 by bluejacko |
Not to mention a very pissed off population that will continue with a full scale insurgency against the Russians for years! |
It will be Russia’s Vietnam.
The cost will be enormous in terms of lives lost and money spent. Putin is not going to be able to hide that from his populace for ever! |  | | |
| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 10:54 - Mar 12 with 2987 views | BlueBadger |
| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 10:44 - Mar 12 by BanksterDebtSlave |
It's insanity Guthers and it is only just starting. It is also going to spread in yet unknown ways and it feels like there is literally nothing we can do. |
I'm trying to look on the bright side and hoping that this is the event the world needs in order to stop people from electing far-right populist loons into government.
Mind you, I also rather hoped that the pandemic might ultimately breed some empathy, patience, reassessing of our attitudes to work and some respect for our public services, so what do I know? |  |
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| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 10:54 - Mar 12 with 2977 views | positivity |
| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 10:38 - Mar 12 by Guthrum |
Wars are the great destroyers of economies. They gobble up money at an alarming rate, trade is disrupted, large parts of the populace are forced into unproductive occupations (fighting or supplying the troops), refugees are displaced, infrastructure is smashed up. It can eventually lead to the collapse of governments and even nation states.
Even if Russia does manage to conquer Uraine, what will they be left with? A land of broken bridges and ruined cities, full of mines and unexploded ordnance, with maybe a tenth of the population having fled abroad. Reconstruction will take years and cost a vast amount of money. The expense of which might, itself, do much damage to the Russian economy. |
it's madness, and I think a tenth of the population leaving is a vast underestimate unfortunately | |
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| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 11:02 - Mar 12 with 2947 views | Swansea_Blue |
We could do something about it if our government wasn’t so small minded and mean spirited. I see there are reports today that it’s Johnson and his 2 new advisors who dismissed the Home Office suggestions to be slightly more humane (only slightly though). Imagine being more heartless than Patel! Not that it’ll have anything to do with Johnson - he’ll just be following whoever has is ear at any particular time.
This shames all of us. There can’t even be that many Ukrainians trying to get here. The least we can do is make it easy for those who want to and treat the with compassion.
It’s getting to me too - we seem impotent in the face of evil. Makes you wonder what’s the point of organisations like the UN, our nuclear ‘deterrent’, etc. It’s all loads of hot air. And why have people woken up now but largely ignored Chechnya, Crimea, Syria, etc? [Post edited 12 Mar 2022 13:14]
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| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 11:04 - Mar 12 with 2931 views | bluejacko |
| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 10:54 - Mar 12 by BlueBadger |
I'm trying to look on the bright side and hoping that this is the event the world needs in order to stop people from electing far-right populist loons into government.
Mind you, I also rather hoped that the pandemic might ultimately breed some empathy, patience, reassessing of our attitudes to work and some respect for our public services, so what do I know? |
You are of course assuming that the elections are free and fair! | | | |
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| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 11:06 - Mar 12 with 2930 views | nodge_blue |
I’ve felt the same. It’s hard to see how this will eventually play out. I think in times like this we individually seem to spend a huge amount of time thinking about scenarios and what May or may not happen. Most of which is pointless as we can’t affect it and it still drains us and makes us sad.
I saw a Ukrainian politician today say that in interviews now he gets the feeling that the west just wants them to give up. To save their own conscience.
Maybe he has a point. We are very conditioned to be anti war now that it becomes unbearable to see an ongoing conflict on our door step.
I have reflected a little on how other brutal wars in the world just haven’t felt so sickening to me. Maybe because they aren’t on our doorstep, or maybe they haven’t involved russia talking about nuclear attacks.
The other dispiriting thing is a absence of truth or honour. The lies and deceit in the face of the obvious.
I don’t know if it’s brave or cowardly that we don’t get involved militarily. It feels like a hitler moment when you have to act. But ultimately we can’t as we just can’t have WW3.
I guess we have to remain optimistic that somehow Ukraine will prevail and that it will settle down as russia can’t thrive in such isolation. [Post edited 12 Mar 2022 11:11]
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| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 11:22 - Mar 12 with 2867 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 10:54 - Mar 12 by BlueBadger |
I'm trying to look on the bright side and hoping that this is the event the world needs in order to stop people from electing far-right populist loons into government.
Mind you, I also rather hoped that the pandemic might ultimately breed some empathy, patience, reassessing of our attitudes to work and some respect for our public services, so what do I know? |
"hoping that this is the event the world needs in order to stop people from electing far-right populist loons into government."
I would hope so too, but of course, it won't be. Democracy is built on the fact that if you want to vote for a far right populist goon, you can do.
On the other hand, perhaps this will spark a debate with people who vote of populist policies of what it is that gets them to completely ignore the negatives that come with it, See Farage, Marie LePen, Trump, Boris etc etc etc.
Perhaps tighter regulation of social media to prevent propaganda is required? I've really no clue, only that I've brought two kids into this and right now, I'm genuinely scared for them. Its like my 80's nightmares coming true. |  |
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| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 11:24 - Mar 12 with 2856 views | positivity |
| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 11:22 - Mar 12 by Cheltenham_Blue |
"hoping that this is the event the world needs in order to stop people from electing far-right populist loons into government."
I would hope so too, but of course, it won't be. Democracy is built on the fact that if you want to vote for a far right populist goon, you can do.
On the other hand, perhaps this will spark a debate with people who vote of populist policies of what it is that gets them to completely ignore the negatives that come with it, See Farage, Marie LePen, Trump, Boris etc etc etc.
Perhaps tighter regulation of social media to prevent propaganda is required? I've really no clue, only that I've brought two kids into this and right now, I'm genuinely scared for them. Its like my 80's nightmares coming true. |
also, if you've got an insane dictator on your doorstep you're going to want to arm yourself and probably err towards nationalism as a knee-jerk reaction | |
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| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 11:41 - Mar 12 with 2773 views | Darth_Koont |
Yeah, the wider world perspectives are as awful as what is going on in Ukraine unfortunately.
I just hope that calmer, wiser heads prevail amongst those in a position to stop the war and bring about peace rather than those who will dig in for an attritional war that looks much more likely to make things worse. Or certainly no better but just with far greater trauma and loss of life. |  |
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| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 13:18 - Mar 12 with 2544 views | Swansea_Blue |
| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 11:24 - Mar 12 by positivity |
also, if you've got an insane dictator on your doorstep you're going to want to arm yourself and probably err towards nationalism as a knee-jerk reaction |
When maybe the answer all along is less nationalism and more tying ourselves to each other through trade agreements or something else we have in common or rely on each other for. Maybe the EU (or things like it) aren’t so bad after all? Maybe when Putin pops off we need to bring Russia into the fold more rather than perpetuate Cold War attitudes? Who knows. Thankfully it’s not my job to sort it all out! | |
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| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 13:53 - Mar 12 with 2443 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
when one upvote is not enough. |  |
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| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 13:59 - Mar 12 with 2417 views | GlasgowBlue |
| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 10:54 - Mar 12 by BlueBadger |
I'm trying to look on the bright side and hoping that this is the event the world needs in order to stop people from electing far-right populist loons into government.
Mind you, I also rather hoped that the pandemic might ultimately breed some empathy, patience, reassessing of our attitudes to work and some respect for our public services, so what do I know? |
I think this may hit Putin's share of the vote in Russia. He'll probably only get 98% of the vote this time around. |  |
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| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 22:11 - Mar 12 with 2072 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 11:02 - Mar 12 by Swansea_Blue |
We could do something about it if our government wasn’t so small minded and mean spirited. I see there are reports today that it’s Johnson and his 2 new advisors who dismissed the Home Office suggestions to be slightly more humane (only slightly though). Imagine being more heartless than Patel! Not that it’ll have anything to do with Johnson - he’ll just be following whoever has is ear at any particular time.
This shames all of us. There can’t even be that many Ukrainians trying to get here. The least we can do is make it easy for those who want to and treat the with compassion.
It’s getting to me too - we seem impotent in the face of evil. Makes you wonder what’s the point of organisations like the UN, our nuclear ‘deterrent’, etc. It’s all loads of hot air. And why have people woken up now but largely ignored Chechnya, Crimea, Syria, etc? [Post edited 12 Mar 2022 13:14]
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Trouble is with intervention you’re damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Iraq (the second one!) and Afghanistan, and Libya were nothing short of a disaster. Yet when parliament voted against Syria MP’s were also criticised (I personally thought it was the right decision).
Regarding nuclear deterrent, I think this whole episode has shown why it is needed (and personally I wasn never convinced) but it may at least limit Putins intentions. It also to an extent (proxy wars aside) kept us from direct Soviet/Russian attack. | | | |
| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 22:18 - Mar 12 with 2043 views | positivity |
| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 13:18 - Mar 12 by Swansea_Blue |
When maybe the answer all along is less nationalism and more tying ourselves to each other through trade agreements or something else we have in common or rely on each other for. Maybe the EU (or things like it) aren’t so bad after all? Maybe when Putin pops off we need to bring Russia into the fold more rather than perpetuate Cold War attitudes? Who knows. Thankfully it’s not my job to sort it all out! |
absolutely, there was attempts to bring russia more into the fold, but putin's going the other way now.
getting rid of him is going to be messy too though... | |
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| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 22:20 - Mar 12 with 2038 views | positivity |
| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 11:41 - Mar 12 by Darth_Koont |
Yeah, the wider world perspectives are as awful as what is going on in Ukraine unfortunately.
I just hope that calmer, wiser heads prevail amongst those in a position to stop the war and bring about peace rather than those who will dig in for an attritional war that looks much more likely to make things worse. Or certainly no better but just with far greater trauma and loss of life. |
the trouble is there is only one head who can stop this war and he seems ill-inclined to do any such thing right now... | |
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| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 22:33 - Mar 12 with 1987 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 13:18 - Mar 12 by Swansea_Blue |
When maybe the answer all along is less nationalism and more tying ourselves to each other through trade agreements or something else we have in common or rely on each other for. Maybe the EU (or things like it) aren’t so bad after all? Maybe when Putin pops off we need to bring Russia into the fold more rather than perpetuate Cold War attitudes? Who knows. Thankfully it’s not my job to sort it all out! |
Agree but as I mentioned before, this has clearly failed in the case of Russia - look at the amount of western companies operating there.
The sad truth is the events of the last two years (both this and COVID) have exposed how vulnerable global supply chains are, and there’s a danger countries will start looking inward. More nationalistic approaches to energy security with ensue for one thing.
That said it’s been great to see how united the west and its allies have been with regards to the sanctions with everyone willing to take a financial hit for the greater good. | | | |
| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 00:01 - Mar 13 with 1884 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 10:52 - Mar 12 by RegencyBlue |
It will be Russia’s Vietnam.
The cost will be enormous in terms of lives lost and money spent. Putin is not going to be able to hide that from his populace for ever! |
Maybe more like Russia's Ireland. Right next door, a very long and complicated history, large numbers of Ukrainians living in Russia, and very easy for those who decide to carry out bombing campaigns to live in their midst. | | | |
| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 07:58 - Mar 13 with 1694 views | solomon |
| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 10:52 - Mar 12 by RegencyBlue |
It will be Russia’s Vietnam.
The cost will be enormous in terms of lives lost and money spent. Putin is not going to be able to hide that from his populace for ever! |
Russia has already had this with Afghanistan during the 80,s but the world and indeed Russia has changed since then, it impossible to compare but a prolonged war coupled with international sanctions will impact the average Russians life considerably this time, it’s important to remember the Russian people had nothing during the Cold War so they missed nothing. |  | | |
| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 08:04 - Mar 13 with 1683 views | solomon |
It’s hard and I sympathise enormously with you, perhaps a good time to remember the words of one if the planets most enlightened human beings,
“When I despair I remember that all through history the way if truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall, think of it - always”
Mahatma Ghandi | | | |
| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 08:41 - Mar 13 with 1619 views | Churchman |
| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 07:58 - Mar 13 by solomon |
Russia has already had this with Afghanistan during the 80,s but the world and indeed Russia has changed since then, it impossible to compare but a prolonged war coupled with international sanctions will impact the average Russians life considerably this time, it’s important to remember the Russian people had nothing during the Cold War so they missed nothing. |
I’ll be very surprised if Russia doesn’t swallow Ukraine by surrender of straight conquest in the next week, ten days. It’s what Everybody wants, bar the poor Ukrainian people. The west, bar chucking a few toys over the fence, has not given much real support (no fly zone) and the sanctions won’t last much beyond the surrender document.
I’d love to see the transcript of Macron/German blokes chat with Putin. I’d wager most of it was about getting back to normal, Nord2, trade etc. The issue is what happens next with those on Putin’s target list, given Europe is pretty much defenceless. Will it accommodate Putin’s demands or will it try and re-arm and another Cold War break out?
I believe it’ll accommodate in the hope Putin dies of something, because there’s no appetite to face Putin’s Russia down by anybody and there isn’t the money. The situation is totally different to 1945-1989 not least because America is retreating on itself. The outlook for the countries on Russia’s new border will be bleak, but there will be no WW3. |  | | |
| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 09:18 - Mar 13 with 1532 views | solomon |
| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 08:41 - Mar 13 by Churchman |
I’ll be very surprised if Russia doesn’t swallow Ukraine by surrender of straight conquest in the next week, ten days. It’s what Everybody wants, bar the poor Ukrainian people. The west, bar chucking a few toys over the fence, has not given much real support (no fly zone) and the sanctions won’t last much beyond the surrender document.
I’d love to see the transcript of Macron/German blokes chat with Putin. I’d wager most of it was about getting back to normal, Nord2, trade etc. The issue is what happens next with those on Putin’s target list, given Europe is pretty much defenceless. Will it accommodate Putin’s demands or will it try and re-arm and another Cold War break out?
I believe it’ll accommodate in the hope Putin dies of something, because there’s no appetite to face Putin’s Russia down by anybody and there isn’t the money. The situation is totally different to 1945-1989 not least because America is retreating on itself. The outlook for the countries on Russia’s new border will be bleak, but there will be no WW3. |
This is the real dilemma though, if putins gets away with this, anything, absolutely anything is fair game. Unleashing chemical weapons and nerve agents in the streets of nations that harbour his enemies or critics, downing airliners that cross borders or stray close to conflict zones he’s done all of this before the events we now witness,Appeasing men like Putin is equally as dangerous as fighting him. | | | |
| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 09:44 - Mar 13 with 1479 views | WeWereZombies |
| I'm not afraid to admit ..... on 22:11 - Mar 12 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Trouble is with intervention you’re damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Iraq (the second one!) and Afghanistan, and Libya were nothing short of a disaster. Yet when parliament voted against Syria MP’s were also criticised (I personally thought it was the right decision).
Regarding nuclear deterrent, I think this whole episode has shown why it is needed (and personally I wasn never convinced) but it may at least limit Putins intentions. It also to an extent (proxy wars aside) kept us from direct Soviet/Russian attack. |
That's MAD... |  |
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