| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 01:31 - Mar 26 with 1139 views | jeera |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 01:27 - Mar 26 by monytowbray |
Edit, reread and realised I’ve misread. Late on a Friday haha.
As I said earlier, JK’s allies are GB News and Putin. Great work by her. [Post edited 26 Mar 2022 1:29]
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He seems to be saying the complete opposite to what you think he is.
You're agreeing on the same points whilst busying yourself trying to catch him out. |  |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 03:22 - Mar 26 with 1079 views | monytowbray |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 01:31 - Mar 26 by jeera |
He seems to be saying the complete opposite to what you think he is.
You're agreeing on the same points whilst busying yourself trying to catch him out. |
One can misread things and had edited already before you replied.
I know you like a good GOTCHA moment at me but it’s not that deep. |  |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 09:25 - Mar 26 with 1022 views | Darth_Koont |
A number of people have absolutely lost it with their transphobia. JK Rowling and unfortunately Graham Linehan of FatherTed and IT Crowd genius too. Aided and abetted by a motley crew of reactionary loons and obsessives who are radicalising themselves with the narrow views bouncing around their brains and their echo chambers.
And on the other side, their targets ... the trans community that are the most disadvantaged, threatened and at-risk minority. It takes a pretty special type of heartless w@nker to be punching down on these people who have enough to deal with as it is just on their own identity terms.
A little compassion, empathy and understanding wouldn’t go amiss. Not from the radical transphobes (most of them are a lost cause, I fear) but from those of us on the sidelines and watching these attacks or even waving them through.
We can add it to the list of things that were acceptable in the past (demonising and abusing gays and lesbians, for example) but became totally unacceptable within a decade or two. |  |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 09:39 - Mar 26 with 1004 views | lowhouseblue |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 09:25 - Mar 26 by Darth_Koont |
A number of people have absolutely lost it with their transphobia. JK Rowling and unfortunately Graham Linehan of FatherTed and IT Crowd genius too. Aided and abetted by a motley crew of reactionary loons and obsessives who are radicalising themselves with the narrow views bouncing around their brains and their echo chambers.
And on the other side, their targets ... the trans community that are the most disadvantaged, threatened and at-risk minority. It takes a pretty special type of heartless w@nker to be punching down on these people who have enough to deal with as it is just on their own identity terms.
A little compassion, empathy and understanding wouldn’t go amiss. Not from the radical transphobes (most of them are a lost cause, I fear) but from those of us on the sidelines and watching these attacks or even waving them through.
We can add it to the list of things that were acceptable in the past (demonising and abusing gays and lesbians, for example) but became totally unacceptable within a decade or two. |
you completely misrepresent nature of much of the current discussion. you have invented a definition of 'trans-phobia' which simply serves to label people you disagree with. the people you are labelling all start by stating that the trans community must have respect and support and be protected fully legally against discrimination and harassment in the same way as any at risk minority. that however cannot preclude reasoned discussion of the relationship between gender and biology. that you are simply trying to shut down that discussion shows that it is you who lacks compassion, empathy and understanding.
trying to discuss something this complex and sensitive on a football discussion board is unwise, you just get the sort of slogan shouting and clique policing that you have just demonstrated. [Post edited 26 Mar 2022 9:41]
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 09:52 - Mar 26 with 991 views | Darth_Koont |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 09:39 - Mar 26 by lowhouseblue |
you completely misrepresent nature of much of the current discussion. you have invented a definition of 'trans-phobia' which simply serves to label people you disagree with. the people you are labelling all start by stating that the trans community must have respect and support and be protected fully legally against discrimination and harassment in the same way as any at risk minority. that however cannot preclude reasoned discussion of the relationship between gender and biology. that you are simply trying to shut down that discussion shows that it is you who lacks compassion, empathy and understanding.
trying to discuss something this complex and sensitive on a football discussion board is unwise, you just get the sort of slogan shouting and clique policing that you have just demonstrated. [Post edited 26 Mar 2022 9:41]
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Yeah, yeah. And if you believe that, you’ll believe any reactionary self-justification.
Why do they insist on the discussion and their right to it?
The shifting of the debate and making themselves the victims is uncannily like the straight white men who see themselves as being on the wrong side of the race, gender and sexuality debates and that they’re somehow the victims. Or the right-wingers who believe it’s the left that’s the problem (despite the left not being in power for 40+ years). Or the pro-Israel apologists who want to take that victimhood from the Palestinians and call them the oppressors. Or the right-wing, reactionary media pundits who go on air or write a column in a national newspaper to complain about being cancelled when their awful views are criticised.
Not coincidentally, a lot of them are also transphobes too.
It’s a symptom of a wider disease. And in this particular case it’s even more harsh on the real victims, considering the real struggles and the real dangers already facing them from suicide and transphobic violence.
Screw the ‘debate’. Just stop talking and making it an even worse environment for these people. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 09:57 - Mar 26 with 956 views | lowhouseblue |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 09:52 - Mar 26 by Darth_Koont |
Yeah, yeah. And if you believe that, you’ll believe any reactionary self-justification.
Why do they insist on the discussion and their right to it?
The shifting of the debate and making themselves the victims is uncannily like the straight white men who see themselves as being on the wrong side of the race, gender and sexuality debates and that they’re somehow the victims. Or the right-wingers who believe it’s the left that’s the problem (despite the left not being in power for 40+ years). Or the pro-Israel apologists who want to take that victimhood from the Palestinians and call them the oppressors. Or the right-wing, reactionary media pundits who go on air or write a column in a national newspaper to complain about being cancelled when their awful views are criticised.
Not coincidentally, a lot of them are also transphobes too.
It’s a symptom of a wider disease. And in this particular case it’s even more harsh on the real victims, considering the real struggles and the real dangers already facing them from suicide and transphobic violence.
Screw the ‘debate’. Just stop talking and making it an even worse environment for these people. |
QED.
(and extra points for working israel in. go to the top of the class) | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 10:03 - Mar 26 with 943 views | Darth_Koont |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 09:57 - Mar 26 by lowhouseblue |
QED.
(and extra points for working israel in. go to the top of the class) |
Why? The Israel/Palestine ‘debate’ is another perfect example of the kind of victim-shifting ‘debate’ we’re talking about.
You really don’t score well on much of this, it must be said. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 10:31 - Mar 26 with 885 views | Bobbychase |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 09:25 - Mar 26 by Darth_Koont |
A number of people have absolutely lost it with their transphobia. JK Rowling and unfortunately Graham Linehan of FatherTed and IT Crowd genius too. Aided and abetted by a motley crew of reactionary loons and obsessives who are radicalising themselves with the narrow views bouncing around their brains and their echo chambers.
And on the other side, their targets ... the trans community that are the most disadvantaged, threatened and at-risk minority. It takes a pretty special type of heartless w@nker to be punching down on these people who have enough to deal with as it is just on their own identity terms.
A little compassion, empathy and understanding wouldn’t go amiss. Not from the radical transphobes (most of them are a lost cause, I fear) but from those of us on the sidelines and watching these attacks or even waving them through.
We can add it to the list of things that were acceptable in the past (demonising and abusing gays and lesbians, for example) but became totally unacceptable within a decade or two. |
Sadly, I think the reality is the disadvantaged and punched-down group are the feminists who try and advocate for women's rights. Below is a rather disturbing example of what happened in Bristol when one female student tried to stand up for her own rights.
https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/bullying-and-harassment-permit-bristol-univers |  |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 11:10 - Mar 26 with 833 views | Ryorry |
I'm not even a feminist, just an ordinary woman who like many others is hacked off with the attempts at our own hard-fought, hard-won rights being trampled over by men, including one or two on this forum apparently, for whom we're not a small enough minority for our rights to matter.
This isn't me, but it could & would be if I weren't shopping exclusively online atm due to Covid -
"a hitherto totally unfeminist older lady who’s vowed never to visit Marks & Spencer again because they’re allowing any man who says they identify as a woman into the women’s changing rooms" (from JKR's statement that I osted earlier"
Again, I stress that I'm fully supportive of genuine trans people who are going through, or have gone through, the process. |  |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 11:10 - Mar 26 with 833 views | Darth_Koont |
There’s no doubt that the debate is very infected at the sharp end. And bullying and abuse shouldn’t be tolerated.
But just a quick google shows that many campaigning for trans rights see organisations like Women’s Place in the same way as the LGB Alliance. If they’re lumping it with a remarkably transphobic group like the latter then it’s worth investigating whether they have a point. And is Rosario Sanchez being a bit disingenuous claiming her and Women’s Place are innocent victims in all this?
We need to do more for the trans community (acceptance, and generally protecting their rights and improving their lives). That is not to deny other groups and their rights here but we should understand who is most endangered and least represented by this ongoing debate.
It’s a bit like South Africa after the end of apartheid. Of course, white South Africans also have rights but the pressing need was to recognise the rights of black South Africans. Not to then turn the tables and threaten the white population. But through a system like Truth and Reconciliation that established the necessary dialogue once the basic inequality was addressed.
At present all that seems to be happening in the debate is that trans rights are being blocked the more people outside the trans community insist that their rights are as important. I don’t actually see the need for conflict here unless people just don’t think trans rights are valid. Which unfortunately is a large part of the opposition in the debate. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 11:13 - Mar 26 with 828 views | Bobbychase |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 11:10 - Mar 26 by Darth_Koont |
There’s no doubt that the debate is very infected at the sharp end. And bullying and abuse shouldn’t be tolerated.
But just a quick google shows that many campaigning for trans rights see organisations like Women’s Place in the same way as the LGB Alliance. If they’re lumping it with a remarkably transphobic group like the latter then it’s worth investigating whether they have a point. And is Rosario Sanchez being a bit disingenuous claiming her and Women’s Place are innocent victims in all this?
We need to do more for the trans community (acceptance, and generally protecting their rights and improving their lives). That is not to deny other groups and their rights here but we should understand who is most endangered and least represented by this ongoing debate.
It’s a bit like South Africa after the end of apartheid. Of course, white South Africans also have rights but the pressing need was to recognise the rights of black South Africans. Not to then turn the tables and threaten the white population. But through a system like Truth and Reconciliation that established the necessary dialogue once the basic inequality was addressed.
At present all that seems to be happening in the debate is that trans rights are being blocked the more people outside the trans community insist that their rights are as important. I don’t actually see the need for conflict here unless people just don’t think trans rights are valid. Which unfortunately is a large part of the opposition in the debate. |
There is no middle ground in this one sadly, so I don't see it ever being resolved except in the courts.
I appreciate the Rosario full story is very long to fully digest but what happened to her is an absolute scandal, aided and abetted it seems by her own university's HR department and legal team. Hence it ended in legal action. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 11:15 - Mar 26 with 818 views | monytowbray |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 09:39 - Mar 26 by lowhouseblue |
you completely misrepresent nature of much of the current discussion. you have invented a definition of 'trans-phobia' which simply serves to label people you disagree with. the people you are labelling all start by stating that the trans community must have respect and support and be protected fully legally against discrimination and harassment in the same way as any at risk minority. that however cannot preclude reasoned discussion of the relationship between gender and biology. that you are simply trying to shut down that discussion shows that it is you who lacks compassion, empathy and understanding.
trying to discuss something this complex and sensitive on a football discussion board is unwise, you just get the sort of slogan shouting and clique policing that you have just demonstrated. [Post edited 26 Mar 2022 9:41]
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Gender is a social construct and has nothing to do with biology.
Using gender and biological sex interchangeably shows you have a poor understanding of the issue/point.
Then again, what a surprise to hear such rubbish spouting from your mouth. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 11:23 - Mar 26 with 811 views | monytowbray |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 11:10 - Mar 26 by Ryorry |
I'm not even a feminist, just an ordinary woman who like many others is hacked off with the attempts at our own hard-fought, hard-won rights being trampled over by men, including one or two on this forum apparently, for whom we're not a small enough minority for our rights to matter.
This isn't me, but it could & would be if I weren't shopping exclusively online atm due to Covid -
"a hitherto totally unfeminist older lady who’s vowed never to visit Marks & Spencer again because they’re allowing any man who says they identify as a woman into the women’s changing rooms" (from JKR's statement that I osted earlier"
Again, I stress that I'm fully supportive of genuine trans people who are going through, or have gone through, the process. |
If you support “genuine” trans people, stop reciting right wing reactionary points designed to scare you into the idea it’s a hack for men with evil intentions to sneak into women’s spaces to perv or commit sexual violence.
And stop making out being pulled up on such transphobic angles is ironically your rights as a women being trampled on. Same energy as those who scream REVERSE RACISM at being called a “gammon” after racist remarks. [Post edited 26 Mar 2022 11:31]
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 11:24 - Mar 26 with 815 views | Darth_Koont |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 11:13 - Mar 26 by Bobbychase |
There is no middle ground in this one sadly, so I don't see it ever being resolved except in the courts.
I appreciate the Rosario full story is very long to fully digest but what happened to her is an absolute scandal, aided and abetted it seems by her own university's HR department and legal team. Hence it ended in legal action. |
There’s no middle ground on bullying and abuse. And I have no doubt that people will have crossed the line. That happens in any public debate.
The question is whether there’s a middle ground on her side of the story and the opposition to her views and those of Woman’s Place she sees as unwarranted from the start.
I’m not going to take her version as read before I dig a bit more and hear the other side. At first glance, there are certainly sensible voices disagreeing with her.
That doesn’t excuse her being bullied or abused, of course. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 11:31 - Mar 26 with 785 views | Bobbychase |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 11:24 - Mar 26 by Darth_Koont |
There’s no middle ground on bullying and abuse. And I have no doubt that people will have crossed the line. That happens in any public debate.
The question is whether there’s a middle ground on her side of the story and the opposition to her views and those of Woman’s Place she sees as unwarranted from the start.
I’m not going to take her version as read before I dig a bit more and hear the other side. At first glance, there are certainly sensible voices disagreeing with her.
That doesn’t excuse her being bullied or abused, of course. |
Her initial starting point was to look at male violence against women, and how women-only spaces might limit that. That's the saddest thing about what happened to her.
I can tell you that a friend of mine volunteers at a shelter in London for women who have been raped/sexually abused or have fled domestic violence. Self-identification is the nightmare scenario for the people who run the shelter, because the women they look after are terrified of men. It wouldn't matter if it was someone born male who now identified as female.
Those are the people who need protecting as well as trans people.
But the people who run the shelter also know that if they went public with their concerns they would be labelled transphobes and get hate mail or worse - its happened to other women's rights charities. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 11:35 - Mar 26 with 778 views | Darth_Koont |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 11:23 - Mar 26 by monytowbray |
If you support “genuine” trans people, stop reciting right wing reactionary points designed to scare you into the idea it’s a hack for men with evil intentions to sneak into women’s spaces to perv or commit sexual violence.
And stop making out being pulled up on such transphobic angles is ironically your rights as a women being trampled on. Same energy as those who scream REVERSE RACISM at being called a “gammon” after racist remarks. [Post edited 26 Mar 2022 11:31]
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Indeed.
There are issues with women’s safe spaces, of course there are, but by exercising empathy, compassion and being sensible enough to steer away from Daily Mail talking points then I don’t see how we can’t solve these while ensuring trans rights are respected.
Just as we are now developing a less black and white understanding of identities, we need to have a less black and white dogmatic view of the practical and social issues.
The pressing need is to stop an awfully exposed trans community from being demonised and endangered. Then talk about practical solutions that also respect CIS women’s rights. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 11:37 - Mar 26 with 772 views | Bobbychase |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 11:35 - Mar 26 by Darth_Koont |
Indeed.
There are issues with women’s safe spaces, of course there are, but by exercising empathy, compassion and being sensible enough to steer away from Daily Mail talking points then I don’t see how we can’t solve these while ensuring trans rights are respected.
Just as we are now developing a less black and white understanding of identities, we need to have a less black and white dogmatic view of the practical and social issues.
The pressing need is to stop an awfully exposed trans community from being demonised and endangered. Then talk about practical solutions that also respect CIS women’s rights. |
Lots of women object to the term CIS by the way. Not quite delved into the complexities of why myself.
Anyhoo. Interesting as this all is, I need to get to Portman Road. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 11:40 - Mar 26 with 761 views | monytowbray |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 11:35 - Mar 26 by Darth_Koont |
Indeed.
There are issues with women’s safe spaces, of course there are, but by exercising empathy, compassion and being sensible enough to steer away from Daily Mail talking points then I don’t see how we can’t solve these while ensuring trans rights are respected.
Just as we are now developing a less black and white understanding of identities, we need to have a less black and white dogmatic view of the practical and social issues.
The pressing need is to stop an awfully exposed trans community from being demonised and endangered. Then talk about practical solutions that also respect CIS women’s rights. |
The concept of gender (and larger “Queer” identifies, if one wants to bucket them together) was being studied and concluding similar things in the early decades of the 1900s.
A certain notable historic genocidal fascist send many of those academics to their death and burned/erased said work.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-forgotten-history-of-the-worlds-f
It’s not a new “wokey cokey” concept, and we seem to have made little progress over the painful amount of time that’s passed for the conversation to hit the mainstream again. [Post edited 26 Mar 2022 11:43]
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 11:48 - Mar 26 with 757 views | Darth_Koont |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 11:31 - Mar 26 by Bobbychase |
Her initial starting point was to look at male violence against women, and how women-only spaces might limit that. That's the saddest thing about what happened to her.
I can tell you that a friend of mine volunteers at a shelter in London for women who have been raped/sexually abused or have fled domestic violence. Self-identification is the nightmare scenario for the people who run the shelter, because the women they look after are terrified of men. It wouldn't matter if it was someone born male who now identified as female.
Those are the people who need protecting as well as trans people.
But the people who run the shelter also know that if they went public with their concerns they would be labelled transphobes and get hate mail or worse - its happened to other women's rights charities. |
It’s not an easy situation, I agree. We need to help at-risk women but that doesn’t mean excluding trans women. Where is the support and shelter for them?
But it doesn’t help that there is a Daily Mail-style mythology around the whole thing. It’s been the same in the debate around trans women and sport that is 99% hypothetical and exaggerated for effect.
On a side note, the subtext in all this is about the real danger of a toxic, frequently violent masculinity that is the much bigger threat and is still being largely ignored in society. That’s something we should really be doing more about as well if we’re serious about minimizing the problems for women everywhere and however they identify themselves. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 11:51 - Mar 26 with 752 views | Darth_Koont |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 11:37 - Mar 26 by Bobbychase |
Lots of women object to the term CIS by the way. Not quite delved into the complexities of why myself.
Anyhoo. Interesting as this all is, I need to get to Portman Road. |
People will object to anything and everything, in my experience.
The key is to take a step back and use objectivity, compassion and fairness as the guide. Not just listen to those with the loudest voices or the biggest platforms. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 11:51 - Mar 26 with 745 views | monytowbray |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 11:48 - Mar 26 by Darth_Koont |
It’s not an easy situation, I agree. We need to help at-risk women but that doesn’t mean excluding trans women. Where is the support and shelter for them?
But it doesn’t help that there is a Daily Mail-style mythology around the whole thing. It’s been the same in the debate around trans women and sport that is 99% hypothetical and exaggerated for effect.
On a side note, the subtext in all this is about the real danger of a toxic, frequently violent masculinity that is the much bigger threat and is still being largely ignored in society. That’s something we should really be doing more about as well if we’re serious about minimizing the problems for women everywhere and however they identify themselves. |
It ties heavily into a deflection for the larger issue of male power structures and shifting blame from the fact men are by and large dreadful, that’s for sure. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 11:52 - Mar 26 with 748 views | lowhouseblue |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 11:15 - Mar 26 by monytowbray |
Gender is a social construct and has nothing to do with biology.
Using gender and biological sex interchangeably shows you have a poor understanding of the issue/point.
Then again, what a surprise to hear such rubbish spouting from your mouth. |
sorry, but you haven't understood the issue at all.
gender critical feminists believe that gender is largely separate from biology, and while in most situations distinguishing people on the basis of their chosen gender is in entirely appropriate, in a small number of situations biology matters more and must be recognised.
you have it almost 100% back to front.
i'll leave you to it. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 11:58 - Mar 26 with 722 views | Bobbychase |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 11:48 - Mar 26 by Darth_Koont |
It’s not an easy situation, I agree. We need to help at-risk women but that doesn’t mean excluding trans women. Where is the support and shelter for them?
But it doesn’t help that there is a Daily Mail-style mythology around the whole thing. It’s been the same in the debate around trans women and sport that is 99% hypothetical and exaggerated for effect.
On a side note, the subtext in all this is about the real danger of a toxic, frequently violent masculinity that is the much bigger threat and is still being largely ignored in society. That’s something we should really be doing more about as well if we’re serious about minimizing the problems for women everywhere and however they identify themselves. |
I think we can all agree on your last point.
And now I really must go. The sun is shining and I want an al fresco beer before we pummel Plymouth. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 12:00 - Mar 26 with 684 views | monytowbray |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 11:52 - Mar 26 by lowhouseblue |
sorry, but you haven't understood the issue at all.
gender critical feminists believe that gender is largely separate from biology, and while in most situations distinguishing people on the basis of their chosen gender is in entirely appropriate, in a small number of situations biology matters more and must be recognised.
you have it almost 100% back to front.
i'll leave you to it. |
Your post reflected none of that, considering you yourself used gender and biological sex interchangeably.
And you now seem to be intentionally vague on which situations you refer to. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 12:09 - Mar 26 with 639 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 09:57 - Mar 26 by lowhouseblue |
QED.
(and extra points for working israel in. go to the top of the class) |
DK has Israel Tourette’s.
And pretty ironic considering the different receptions trans people would get between Israel and any other Middle Eastern country.
What is the official Hamas position on trans? Are they hung from a crane or thrown off a rooftop like homosexuals. |  |
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