| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 17:32 - Mar 27 with 1090 views | lowhouseblue |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 17:12 - Mar 27 by Kievthegreat |
https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2021/1746.html
Judges Summary:
"The total number of known transgender persons in the prison estate is small, though there may well be others who prefer not to declare their identification as the opposite gender. In the course of this hearing, the obtaining of clear evidence as to the relevant statistics proved elusive, not least because the data collected by the Defendant do not include transgender prisoners who have obtained a GRC. Moreover, the data provided to the court lacked clarity, and left many questions unanswered: for example, it was unclear whether references to prisoners with convictions for sexual offences related only to prisoners currently serving a sentence for that type of offence, or also included prisoners who had in the past been convicted of such offences. Nor was it clear whether previous sexual offences by a transgender prisoner were committed before or after the person concerned expressed a wish to live in the opposite gender.
What can be said, however, is that data collected across the prison estate in March/April 2019 recorded the following:
i) There were 163 transgender prisoners, of whom 81 had been convicted of one or more sexual offences.
ii) 129 of those prisoners were allocated to the male estate, 34 to the female estate. Of the 129 in the male estate, 74 had been convicted of one or more sexual offences.
iii) Although no records are kept, the number of transgender prisoners with a GRC is thought to be very low: a single-figure total across the estate as a whole."
So there were 7 transwomen (without a GRC) and an unknown single figure number with a GRC for which there is no data. That's the total in the entire female estate. |
it illustrates the problem with prisons. the 74 convicted transwomen sex offenders in the male estate would no doubt prefer to be in the female estate, and there are people who argue that because of their gender identity they should be. it's good that they're not, and there is clearly a risk based system to decide where they go, which must be right. but it shows that prisons are an example of where gender identity cannot be the over-riding consideration.
in terms of my original statement: "a significant number of the trans women in prison are there because of convictions for sexual assaults on women" - that is proven correct. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 17:34 - Mar 27 with 1081 views | lowhouseblue |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 17:11 - Mar 27 by monytowbray |
Nah mate, you’re just being transphobic at this point.
https://www.transactual.org.uk/transphobia
If you can’t see the link between some of the posts in this thread (including your own) and some of the points on this list I’ll happily break it down help connect the dots for you. Not that I have much hope for you considering any of it as a poster who just replies “wibble” when backed into a corner (whilst ironically screaming others can’t follow discussion). |
really can't be bothered with you. life is too short. you can go on ignore for a bit. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 17:35 - Mar 27 with 1069 views | monytowbray |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 17:34 - Mar 27 by lowhouseblue |
really can't be bothered with you. life is too short. you can go on ignore for a bit. |
“Wibble.” |  |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 17:41 - Mar 27 with 1043 views | monytowbray |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 17:32 - Mar 27 by lowhouseblue |
it illustrates the problem with prisons. the 74 convicted transwomen sex offenders in the male estate would no doubt prefer to be in the female estate, and there are people who argue that because of their gender identity they should be. it's good that they're not, and there is clearly a risk based system to decide where they go, which must be right. but it shows that prisons are an example of where gender identity cannot be the over-riding consideration.
in terms of my original statement: "a significant number of the trans women in prison are there because of convictions for sexual assaults on women" - that is proven correct. |
If you ignore all context of other stats that demonstrate your bogeyman of trans women committing sexual assaults in prison is much lower, and conflate original crimes as the threat instead.
And on the flip, do you have any idea how many hoops a transperson has to jump through to move to a women’s prison? You are acting like the same gammons who scream immigrants come over here illegally and get given a mansion.
And that’s before we factor that this can be at least mistaken for misinterpretation on your behalf outside of all the actual transphobic narratives you have stated.
Kiev has a lot more patience than I, although maybe he’s giving you the benefit of the doubt - I’ve engaged with you far too many times to chalk your views up as anything but ignorance. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 17:47 - Mar 27 with 1058 views | footers |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 17:41 - Mar 27 by monytowbray |
If you ignore all context of other stats that demonstrate your bogeyman of trans women committing sexual assaults in prison is much lower, and conflate original crimes as the threat instead.
And on the flip, do you have any idea how many hoops a transperson has to jump through to move to a women’s prison? You are acting like the same gammons who scream immigrants come over here illegally and get given a mansion.
And that’s before we factor that this can be at least mistaken for misinterpretation on your behalf outside of all the actual transphobic narratives you have stated.
Kiev has a lot more patience than I, although maybe he’s giving you the benefit of the doubt - I’ve engaged with you far too many times to chalk your views up as anything but ignorance. |
It's basically a boring and painfully pompous rehashing of 'don't care if you're a poof, mate, so long as you keep away from kids'. |  |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 17:57 - Mar 27 with 1013 views | monytowbray |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 17:47 - Mar 27 by footers |
It's basically a boring and painfully pompous rehashing of 'don't care if you're a poof, mate, so long as you keep away from kids'. |
Even I can give Lowhouse some credit, he’s at least one tier above that crowd, alas how many up I couldn’t say.
Problem seems to stem from a poor understanding of what transgender is, who it affects, how it affects them and over exposure to right wing agendas in our press.
And we know full well he falls for those agendas practically every time, and is too dug into neoliberalism to evolve beyond a lazy, dated left wing stance that involves pretending to care so long as it doesn’t impact me. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 17:59 - Mar 27 with 1042 views | Kievthegreat |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 17:32 - Mar 27 by lowhouseblue |
it illustrates the problem with prisons. the 74 convicted transwomen sex offenders in the male estate would no doubt prefer to be in the female estate, and there are people who argue that because of their gender identity they should be. it's good that they're not, and there is clearly a risk based system to decide where they go, which must be right. but it shows that prisons are an example of where gender identity cannot be the over-riding consideration.
in terms of my original statement: "a significant number of the trans women in prison are there because of convictions for sexual assaults on women" - that is proven correct. |
The statistic is for "sexual offences". No mention of victim, so "on women" is not proven. No mention of assault either - while all sexual assaults are sexual offences, not all sexual offences are assaults, voyuerism, indecent exposure, etc... there is an array f sexual offences and no context given to when they occured. These and other reasons are why the judge bemoans the inadequacy of the statistics. I mean one of these
The over-riding consideration is the health and welfare of the prisoners. The issue is that there are more transwomen who are victims in the male estate than perpetrators in the female estate.
From the previous judgment (that rejected a bid that all trans women with sexual convictions be kept in the male estate) stated that there were 7 attacks by transwomen in 3 years of 2016-19 (2 per year) versus 11 against transwomen in the male estate in 2019 (11 per year). |  | | |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 18:20 - Mar 27 with 974 views | lowhouseblue |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 17:59 - Mar 27 by Kievthegreat |
The statistic is for "sexual offences". No mention of victim, so "on women" is not proven. No mention of assault either - while all sexual assaults are sexual offences, not all sexual offences are assaults, voyuerism, indecent exposure, etc... there is an array f sexual offences and no context given to when they occured. These and other reasons are why the judge bemoans the inadequacy of the statistics. I mean one of these
The over-riding consideration is the health and welfare of the prisoners. The issue is that there are more transwomen who are victims in the male estate than perpetrators in the female estate.
From the previous judgment (that rejected a bid that all trans women with sexual convictions be kept in the male estate) stated that there were 7 attacks by transwomen in 3 years of 2016-19 (2 per year) versus 11 against transwomen in the male estate in 2019 (11 per year). |
"assaults, voyuerism, indecent exposure, etc" - none of those are particularly great for women.
"The over-riding consideration is the health and welfare of the prisoners." yes exactly - my point all along. that means - as demonstrated by current practice, that health and welfare considerations must and do override gender identity. so it does serve, as i asserted, as an example of my general point.
I've not said anything about "transwomen who are victims in the male estate" - that wasn't the issue I raised. it is clearly a very serious issue, and it points to the need to have separate facilities for transwomen prisoners who on the basis of health and welfare considerations can't go into the female estate.
I have never asserted that it is common for transwomen prisoners to commit assaults on women whilst in prison - your data suggests that the prison authority's focus on health and welfare considerations is generally working well and preventing such assaults being common.
my whole point, was that there are situations in which gender identity can not be the overriding consideration, and the example of prisons, and the way the authorities properly manage them, has been shown to demonstrate that point clearly. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 18:58 - Mar 27 with 925 views | monytowbray |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 18:20 - Mar 27 by lowhouseblue |
"assaults, voyuerism, indecent exposure, etc" - none of those are particularly great for women.
"The over-riding consideration is the health and welfare of the prisoners." yes exactly - my point all along. that means - as demonstrated by current practice, that health and welfare considerations must and do override gender identity. so it does serve, as i asserted, as an example of my general point.
I've not said anything about "transwomen who are victims in the male estate" - that wasn't the issue I raised. it is clearly a very serious issue, and it points to the need to have separate facilities for transwomen prisoners who on the basis of health and welfare considerations can't go into the female estate.
I have never asserted that it is common for transwomen prisoners to commit assaults on women whilst in prison - your data suggests that the prison authority's focus on health and welfare considerations is generally working well and preventing such assaults being common.
my whole point, was that there are situations in which gender identity can not be the overriding consideration, and the example of prisons, and the way the authorities properly manage them, has been shown to demonstrate that point clearly. |
“prisons - the problem with what you say is that a significant number of the trans women in prison are there because of convictions for sexual assaults on women.”
Not what you said at all originally. Although we’ll take your lessons from the Disingenuous School of TWTD of learning something new and back peddling to insist you were never wrong in the first place, alongside the fact you now seem to have made better use of the words “gender/sex”.
It’s the closest you’ll get to “Sorry, I was wrong and I will use this new information to be more considerate” from Lowhouse. It’s a step in the right direction on the bigger picture though.
[Post edited 27 Mar 2022 19:01]
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 20:43 - Mar 27 with 856 views | istanblue |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 18:32 - Mar 25 by BlueBadger |
JK is the new golliwog for a certain flavour of dickhead now that she's outed herself an open and unashamed bigot. |
SEETHING |  | | |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 21:55 - Mar 27 with 811 views | Ryorry |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 14:10 - Mar 27 by J2BLUE |
I disagree. I was more responding to the other thread where this issue was brought up.
I have no argument that the right wing will use all sorts of BS to try and suppress the rights of others. |
Tbh, I'm not into the politics of the issue at all - nor, I suspect are the vast majority of cis women, (or even trans people?)
Most of us are just speaking from our hearts and our experiences.
I was pondering why it's only yourself & a handful of others who get this on here, and why what's bleedin obvious to me about womens' safe spaces - ie that formerly, if men tried to go into womens' toilets etc. they'd be instantly flagged up; whereas now men who aren't trans can just claim that they are, & thereby potentially shrug off challenges. Maybe it's just too simple a thing to grasp for those who are so heavily into politics that they can only see it as somehow a socio-political L-R battle, not as a matter of individual human lives & fears.
Of course the kind of scenario above isn't a major source of violence against women, but given the valid reasons women historically have to fear men in other situations, many of us are inevitaby going to have strong psychological & emotional reactions to our traditional 'safe spaces' where we could relax and let our guard down for 5-10 mins (and sometimes enjoy the indefineable 'girly' atmosphere in addition!) no longer being sacrosanct. |  |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 22:26 - Mar 27 with 773 views | monytowbray |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 21:55 - Mar 27 by Ryorry |
Tbh, I'm not into the politics of the issue at all - nor, I suspect are the vast majority of cis women, (or even trans people?)
Most of us are just speaking from our hearts and our experiences.
I was pondering why it's only yourself & a handful of others who get this on here, and why what's bleedin obvious to me about womens' safe spaces - ie that formerly, if men tried to go into womens' toilets etc. they'd be instantly flagged up; whereas now men who aren't trans can just claim that they are, & thereby potentially shrug off challenges. Maybe it's just too simple a thing to grasp for those who are so heavily into politics that they can only see it as somehow a socio-political L-R battle, not as a matter of individual human lives & fears.
Of course the kind of scenario above isn't a major source of violence against women, but given the valid reasons women historically have to fear men in other situations, many of us are inevitaby going to have strong psychological & emotional reactions to our traditional 'safe spaces' where we could relax and let our guard down for 5-10 mins (and sometimes enjoy the indefineable 'girly' atmosphere in addition!) no longer being sacrosanct. |
“Whereas now men who aren't trans can just claim that they are”
Not sure how many times you have to be told this isn’t true and is a right wing transphobic narrative until you accept it is not true. This again, is the point I’ve made that you continue to ignore..
https://transequality.org/issues/resources/transgender-people-and-bathroom-acces
https://www.vox.com/2016/5/5/11592908/transgender-bathroom-laws-rights
I’ve exhausted my patience. You are being transphobic. [Post edited 27 Mar 2022 22:30]
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 22:34 - Mar 27 with 766 views | Ryorry |
I'm not. You are being thoroughly abusive tho. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 22:46 - Mar 27 with 703 views | monytowbray |
Libellous would be the case if there wasn’t an entire thread above with your own words where you keep pushing a transphobic narrative.
Most racists and sexists don’t even realise their views are problematic. You are very much doing exactly that with trans rights. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 22:50 - Mar 27 with 678 views | monytowbray |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 22:46 - Mar 27 by monytowbray |
Libellous would be the case if there wasn’t an entire thread above with your own words where you keep pushing a transphobic narrative.
Most racists and sexists don’t even realise their views are problematic. You are very much doing exactly that with trans rights. |
Gonna assume that last post accusing me of libel was deleted for factual inaccuracy. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 22:50 - Mar 27 with 684 views | Ryorry |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 22:46 - Mar 27 by monytowbray |
Libellous would be the case if there wasn’t an entire thread above with your own words where you keep pushing a transphobic narrative.
Most racists and sexists don’t even realise their views are problematic. You are very much doing exactly that with trans rights. |
Stop projecting your own toxic sh1t onto me. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 22:51 - Mar 27 with 677 views | monytowbray |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 22:50 - Mar 27 by Ryorry |
Stop projecting your own toxic sh1t onto me. |
I’m not. I’m challenging your own toxic views. I stand up for human rights, thanks.
Gaslighting. Again. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 22:55 - Mar 27 with 670 views | footers |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 21:55 - Mar 27 by Ryorry |
Tbh, I'm not into the politics of the issue at all - nor, I suspect are the vast majority of cis women, (or even trans people?)
Most of us are just speaking from our hearts and our experiences.
I was pondering why it's only yourself & a handful of others who get this on here, and why what's bleedin obvious to me about womens' safe spaces - ie that formerly, if men tried to go into womens' toilets etc. they'd be instantly flagged up; whereas now men who aren't trans can just claim that they are, & thereby potentially shrug off challenges. Maybe it's just too simple a thing to grasp for those who are so heavily into politics that they can only see it as somehow a socio-political L-R battle, not as a matter of individual human lives & fears.
Of course the kind of scenario above isn't a major source of violence against women, but given the valid reasons women historically have to fear men in other situations, many of us are inevitaby going to have strong psychological & emotional reactions to our traditional 'safe spaces' where we could relax and let our guard down for 5-10 mins (and sometimes enjoy the indefineable 'girly' atmosphere in addition!) no longer being sacrosanct. |
Fear of what?
You brought this up in previous threads, but can you give me any stats on the number of trans on CIS sexual assaults in public toilets? Given trans people have been using those facilities for more than one hundred years, you should be able to provide adequate data to prove your fears and subsequent (apparent) transphobia. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 22:55 - Mar 27 with 664 views | Ryorry |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 22:51 - Mar 27 by monytowbray |
I’m not. I’m challenging your own toxic views. I stand up for human rights, thanks.
Gaslighting. Again. |
"Always accuse others of what you yourself are doing". You project your own gaslighting onto me every. single. time. That's why I refused to continue debating with you earlier. I replied to J2. But hey, you had to jump in just to be abusive at me again. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 23:00 - Mar 27 with 641 views | monytowbray |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 22:55 - Mar 27 by Ryorry |
"Always accuse others of what you yourself are doing". You project your own gaslighting onto me every. single. time. That's why I refused to continue debating with you earlier. I replied to J2. But hey, you had to jump in just to be abusive at me again. |
Read the thread and debate what’s been raised with you. Stop ignoring it, repeating the same lie as if it’s fact and then claiming that’s some form of abuse.
I’m sorry you see challenging transphobia as “abuse”. We know really it’s just a desperation from someone doubling down on your toxic view on the matter (which certainly did not come via me projecting on you). You posted what you posted, no one else. Own it and do better. [Post edited 27 Mar 2022 23:01]
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 23:02 - Mar 27 with 632 views | Ryorry |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 22:55 - Mar 27 by footers |
Fear of what?
You brought this up in previous threads, but can you give me any stats on the number of trans on CIS sexual assaults in public toilets? Given trans people have been using those facilities for more than one hundred years, you should be able to provide adequate data to prove your fears and subsequent (apparent) transphobia. |
The point you've missed & that mt downright refuses to either read or gras,p is that I am *not* talking about "trans on CIS sexual assaults in public toilets".
I'm talking about CIS men *posing* or *claiming* that they are trans simply to gain access to those spaces. Maybe as a man who hasn't grown up as a female you don't have the capacity to understand how women feel, you literally haven't had to walk in their shoes. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 23:04 - Mar 27 with 620 views | footers |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 23:02 - Mar 27 by Ryorry |
The point you've missed & that mt downright refuses to either read or gras,p is that I am *not* talking about "trans on CIS sexual assaults in public toilets".
I'm talking about CIS men *posing* or *claiming* that they are trans simply to gain access to those spaces. Maybe as a man who hasn't grown up as a female you don't have the capacity to understand how women feel, you literally haven't had to walk in their shoes. |
So, you're worried about something a rapist could do already anyway?
OK. Thanks. Great point. [Post edited 27 Mar 2022 23:05]
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 23:06 - Mar 27 with 608 views | monytowbray |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 23:02 - Mar 27 by Ryorry |
The point you've missed & that mt downright refuses to either read or gras,p is that I am *not* talking about "trans on CIS sexual assaults in public toilets".
I'm talking about CIS men *posing* or *claiming* that they are trans simply to gain access to those spaces. Maybe as a man who hasn't grown up as a female you don't have the capacity to understand how women feel, you literally haven't had to walk in their shoes. |
You are literally claiming due to trans rights men can now walk into women’s toilets unchallenged. You have quoted JK Rowlings claiming trans presence in women’s spaces is a threat to women.
Not sure how many times you need to be told this isn’t true (with links) before it sticks.
It’s called Transphobia and the more you double down the more apparent it is becoming you are heavily in denial about where your problematic views sit within the trans rights space. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 23:13 - Mar 27 with 581 views | Ryorry |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 23:04 - Mar 27 by footers |
So, you're worried about something a rapist could do already anyway?
OK. Thanks. Great point. [Post edited 27 Mar 2022 23:05]
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No, a male (potential rapist) would be flagged up as someone not permitted to enter female toilets. That's the point.
Men without violent intentions have always accepted that female toilets aren't a permitted space for them. Not sure what you find so hard to understand about that tbh. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 23:15 - Mar 27 with 575 views | monytowbray |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 23:13 - Mar 27 by Ryorry |
No, a male (potential rapist) would be flagged up as someone not permitted to enter female toilets. That's the point.
Men without violent intentions have always accepted that female toilets aren't a permitted space for them. Not sure what you find so hard to understand about that tbh. |
You just said they’re allowed in women’s toilets now unchallenged.
Which is it? | |
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