| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 14:05 - Mar 27 with 1006 views | monytowbray |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 13:45 - Mar 27 by Ryorry |
You've been answered several times by me; every time you then replied to me you found it impossible to comprehend what I was saying, found it impossible to discuss in any kind of nuanced way, instead resorting to shouting divisive rhetoric at me & then completely misrepresenting me with untruthful & belittling comments.
For that reason I pointed out that it was fruitless discussing any further with you, as things were clearly sliding down the same path as we'd gone down several times before, ie you just distorting what I'd said, making up sh1t about me, & Phil then having to delete parts or all of thread.
Last of the sunshine today & I've learned from bitter experience to enjoy that instead of wasting my time trying/b] to have a civil convo with you. |
Point out where you have responded to my point about the narrative you’ve pushed via JK and why I’m wrong. J2’s at least willing to speak up and say what he means, you’ve swerved entirely. |  |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 14:07 - Mar 27 with 1005 views | monytowbray |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 13:36 - Mar 27 by lowhouseblue |
gender neutral toilets are fine in most cases. the main exception is venues such as bars where the problem isn't trans people at all - it's pissed cis men hassling women.
while in most situations distinguishing people on the basis of their chosen gender is entirely appropriate and right, in a small number of situations biology matters more and must be recognised - the exceptions where biology matters more that are usually discussed include: health care; prisons; refuges were women are escaping male violence; and sport. [Post edited 27 Mar 2022 13:38]
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So you admit the problem is CIS men yet still can’t connect the dots between the attacks the trans community receives.
Well done. Now apply that logic to your opinion. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 14:10 - Mar 27 with 1003 views | J2BLUE |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 14:02 - Mar 27 by monytowbray |
Which isn’t what is being suggested of proposed in regards to trans rights at all.
You are following a right wing narrative designed to take bold assumptions and turn them into imaginary threats to suppress support for trans rights. |
I disagree. I was more responding to the other thread where this issue was brought up.
I have no argument that the right wing will use all sorts of BS to try and suppress the rights of others. |  |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 14:11 - Mar 27 with 922 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 11:36 - Mar 27 by Darth_Koont |
GB doesn’t do context. He does weaponisation. |
Is there any context to knowingly spreading Putin’s propaganda whilst he is murdering innocent men, women and children in a bloody invasion? |  |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 14:12 - Mar 27 with 995 views | monytowbray |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 14:10 - Mar 27 by J2BLUE |
I disagree. I was more responding to the other thread where this issue was brought up.
I have no argument that the right wing will use all sorts of BS to try and suppress the rights of others. |
No one is proposing cis men in women safe spaces. As part of the pro trans rights side of debate or anywhere else I’ve ever seen.
Disagree all you like, but you are talking out of your arse and pushing a transphobic myth.
Do better. [Post edited 27 Mar 2022 14:14]
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 14:15 - Mar 27 with 983 views | J2BLUE |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 14:12 - Mar 27 by monytowbray |
No one is proposing cis men in women safe spaces. As part of the pro trans rights side of debate or anywhere else I’ve ever seen.
Disagree all you like, but you are talking out of your arse and pushing a transphobic myth.
Do better. [Post edited 27 Mar 2022 14:14]
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I am literally talking about this thread: Toilets at work panic by unbelievablue 24 Mar 2022 13:44I find myself in the office today, for the first time in a little while. It turns out the toilets on my floor have been turned into gender neutral toilets since I last used them, including removing urinals, adding extra cubicles etc., which is great - I'm all for inclusion.
However, I missed the memo, and I must have been on autopilot as after doing the bizniz I opened the cubicle door to find a lady washing her hands, at which point I totally and utterly panicked.
I guess the takeaway here is: try and be more mindful, and less on autopilot.
You can see the short debate with Footers. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 14:30 - Mar 27 with 958 views | Kievthegreat |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 13:36 - Mar 27 by lowhouseblue |
gender neutral toilets are fine in most cases. the main exception is venues such as bars where the problem isn't trans people at all - it's pissed cis men hassling women.
while in most situations distinguishing people on the basis of their chosen gender is entirely appropriate and right, in a small number of situations biology matters more and must be recognised - the exceptions where biology matters more that are usually discussed include: health care; prisons; refuges were women are escaping male violence; and sport. [Post edited 27 Mar 2022 13:38]
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The problem with each of the "exceptions" is that they themselves have exceptions:
Healthcare - A Trans man can be just as effected by ovarian cancer if they are pre-op. Inclusive language though is reacted to angrily by culture warriors though. Example below*
Prisons - A trans women, who hasn't received a GRC, but has been living as a women for 10+ years goes to a male establishment, at significant risk to their safety. The prison service (England and Wales, Scotland may be different) may review cases.
Refuges - Trans women will be escaping violence too, should they be turned away? If a cis woman is concerned or it would affect her, steps should be taken to make them feel safe, but not at the expense of blocking trans women from refuges too.
Sport - What happens if you're intersex? You're born outward physical appearance female, but are actually XY or have 'too much testosterone'. While the others are far more important areas in terms of the impacts on womens lives (trans and cis), this is the one where there is a real difficulty in getting to a solution. There is a real issue in sport about how men and women are defined, because the latest push to measure hormone levels puts a bizarre arbitrary limit on how much oestrogen/testosterone makes a women. It leads to situations where some (admittedly a small number) female athletes have to take hormone blockers because they have too much testosterone naturally. https://www.wcpo.com/blogs/sports/iaaf-women-athletes-with-high-testosterone-mus The discussion here is about the affect on Semanya, but the rules are part of trying to define limits to trans atheletes as they'll have to meet the same bars, while the actual victims are cis women hurt by rule meant to 'protect them'.
The issue with this debate is we are taught as children that there are just 2 possibilities. Male or Female, XY or XX, Blue or Pink. It's simplistic and it's fine for 5 year olds, but doesn't prepare for the messiness of reality. As such you end up with a debate that must be black and white, when the world is full of shades of gray.
*Example of where bizarre parts of this culture war are being fought. BBC had an article about Endometriosis, they stated that it "affects 1 in 10 people of any age in the UK, who are assigned female at birth". Cue complaints that "Sex is not 'assigned at birth'". and the article is changed to "affects 1 in 10 women of any age in the UK". It's actually less accurate now, but it's not inclusive so some will still be happy they've 'won'.
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 14:31 - Mar 27 with 946 views | monytowbray |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 14:15 - Mar 27 by J2BLUE |
I am literally talking about this thread: Toilets at work panic by unbelievablue 24 Mar 2022 13:44I find myself in the office today, for the first time in a little while. It turns out the toilets on my floor have been turned into gender neutral toilets since I last used them, including removing urinals, adding extra cubicles etc., which is great - I'm all for inclusion.
However, I missed the memo, and I must have been on autopilot as after doing the bizniz I opened the cubicle door to find a lady washing her hands, at which point I totally and utterly panicked.
I guess the takeaway here is: try and be more mindful, and less on autopilot.
You can see the short debate with Footers. |
I just read it and he’s also explained the threats are a myth.
Unsure why you’d peddle it here again. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 14:36 - Mar 27 with 936 views | J2BLUE |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 14:31 - Mar 27 by monytowbray |
I just read it and he’s also explained the threats are a myth.
Unsure why you’d peddle it here again. |
You're impossible. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 14:44 - Mar 27 with 910 views | monytowbray |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 14:36 - Mar 27 by J2BLUE |
You're impossible. |
What is so hard to understand? What argument do you have to demonstrate the threat of cis men getting free reign to go in women’s toilets is the end goal? And what argument do you have to show this “very real concern” means trans rights should be invalidated?
I’m not “impossible”, I just think ignorance breeds doubling down when something that throws the baby out the bath water has one in a corner and it’s too challenging for their own reality/moral compass. I’ve had this a lot over the years on various matters and honestly, time will again see everyone shifting their view yet claiming somehow I was always wrong simultaneously.
Facts are facts. If they upset you because I won’t tiptoe around your feelings in relation to dangerous discriminatory words you are posting, nor will I agree to disagree with said nonsense.
You can always, ya know, review your position, take in new information and change your views in line with what you learn rather than playing the man over the ball. [Post edited 27 Mar 2022 14:47]
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 15:28 - Mar 27 with 841 views | Darth_Koont |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 14:11 - Mar 27 by GlasgowBlue |
Is there any context to knowingly spreading Putin’s propaganda whilst he is murdering innocent men, women and children in a bloody invasion? |
Don’t be a c@ck.
Just like Stop The War and others’ issue with NATO, it’s legitimate to address just how very poor our own standards are.
None of which gives any justification for Putin’s murderous invasion. But we need to address our own foreign policy failings and our own bumbling democratic deficits too.
Just because you’re a decade late to the party as ever, doesn’t mean people haven’t been criticising Putin for years, as well as our government’s role in destabilising the world and shaping the current situation.
Accusing Cadwalladr of somehow spreading propaganda is typically low of you, Hodges and the rest of the disingenuous right. |  |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 15:37 - Mar 27 with 766 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 15:28 - Mar 27 by Darth_Koont |
Don’t be a c@ck.
Just like Stop The War and others’ issue with NATO, it’s legitimate to address just how very poor our own standards are.
None of which gives any justification for Putin’s murderous invasion. But we need to address our own foreign policy failings and our own bumbling democratic deficits too.
Just because you’re a decade late to the party as ever, doesn’t mean people haven’t been criticising Putin for years, as well as our government’s role in destabilising the world and shaping the current situation.
Accusing Cadwalladr of somehow spreading propaganda is typically low of you, Hodges and the rest of the disingenuous right. |
She shared a video produced by the Kremlin you daft apologist. Whether you despise Johnson or not, you don’t share Kremlin propaganda just to get one up on him.
Carole Cadwalladr shared actual Russian propaganda, that thing she has spent the last few years telling us was everywhere, just to get one up on Johnson.
You x see joule be able to admire her for all she has said and done over the past few years and still say how bloody silly she was to do so. Otherwise she just becomes another useful idiot. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 15:51 - Mar 27 with 809 views | Darth_Koont |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 15:37 - Mar 27 by GlasgowBlue |
She shared a video produced by the Kremlin you daft apologist. Whether you despise Johnson or not, you don’t share Kremlin propaganda just to get one up on him.
Carole Cadwalladr shared actual Russian propaganda, that thing she has spent the last few years telling us was everywhere, just to get one up on Johnson.
You x see joule be able to admire her for all she has said and done over the past few years and still say how bloody silly she was to do so. Otherwise she just becomes another useful idiot. |
It’s not Putin propaganda to say Johnson is an utter clown. He is.
There’s nothing contentious in what she shared, only the faux outrage.
The Mail had Putin’s propaganda splashed all over its front page the other day saying Boris is their Number 1 enemy. That sounds more like propaganda, if we’re being honest, to give him and his party cover for being up to their necks in Russian money and influence.
No doubt you and the Mail’s own Hodges were all over that for promoting Putin’s propaganda. Standards matter, right? | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 16:00 - Mar 27 with 790 views | monytowbray |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 15:51 - Mar 27 by Darth_Koont |
It’s not Putin propaganda to say Johnson is an utter clown. He is.
There’s nothing contentious in what she shared, only the faux outrage.
The Mail had Putin’s propaganda splashed all over its front page the other day saying Boris is their Number 1 enemy. That sounds more like propaganda, if we’re being honest, to give him and his party cover for being up to their necks in Russian money and influence.
No doubt you and the Mail’s own Hodges were all over that for promoting Putin’s propaganda. Standards matter, right? |
CC - someone who has faced heavy abuse and legal gagging orders from Aaron Banks and co to prevent her from taking about VoteLeave’s Russian connections, helped expose the links between corrupt Russian money flying through the Tory Party and continually fought to have the Russia Report released whilst Glassers merry band of politicians he’s fawned over for years surpressed it due to guilt - is a Russian asset.
Meanwhile, Glassers did all he could to share the propaganda of Vote Leave throughout the vote and fall out of Brexit (alas he’s gone very swervy on the topic in the last couple of years as a poor attempt to save face)
Is it no wonder when he can connect fictional dots he found the same links with Corbyn.
What exactly needs to happen for said disingenuous little stain of a human to look at his entire world view and say “you know what, I may have batted for the wrong team.”
Still little to no acknowledgement of the smears and pile ons he instigated my way that resulted in my temporary ban when I pointed out the science the Tories followed to delay lockdown was deeply flawed and would result in needless death, nor the obvious illegal corruption that resulted in wasted taxpayer money going into party donation pockets for COVID/related systems/gear which is widely accepted as fact now.
I will remain a thorn in his side until he pulls his head out of his arse, block or no block. [Post edited 27 Mar 2022 16:05]
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 16:08 - Mar 27 with 771 views | lowhouseblue |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 14:07 - Mar 27 by monytowbray |
So you admit the problem is CIS men yet still can’t connect the dots between the attacks the trans community receives.
Well done. Now apply that logic to your opinion. |
respond to what was in the post or don't bother. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 16:13 - Mar 27 with 755 views | monytowbray |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 16:08 - Mar 27 by lowhouseblue |
respond to what was in the post or don't bother. |
You made the entire post irrelevant with your opening statement. Hence why there’s FA left to add.
Plus you seem to think you are deserving of a debate standard you very rarely, if ever, adhere to yourself. Hell, seems weird to pick that one up with me in a thread where you will up arrow someone else ignoring questions or points continually.
Your agenda is showing again. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 16:27 - Mar 27 with 733 views | Ryorry |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 14:30 - Mar 27 by Kievthegreat |
The problem with each of the "exceptions" is that they themselves have exceptions:
Healthcare - A Trans man can be just as effected by ovarian cancer if they are pre-op. Inclusive language though is reacted to angrily by culture warriors though. Example below*
Prisons - A trans women, who hasn't received a GRC, but has been living as a women for 10+ years goes to a male establishment, at significant risk to their safety. The prison service (England and Wales, Scotland may be different) may review cases.
Refuges - Trans women will be escaping violence too, should they be turned away? If a cis woman is concerned or it would affect her, steps should be taken to make them feel safe, but not at the expense of blocking trans women from refuges too.
Sport - What happens if you're intersex? You're born outward physical appearance female, but are actually XY or have 'too much testosterone'. While the others are far more important areas in terms of the impacts on womens lives (trans and cis), this is the one where there is a real difficulty in getting to a solution. There is a real issue in sport about how men and women are defined, because the latest push to measure hormone levels puts a bizarre arbitrary limit on how much oestrogen/testosterone makes a women. It leads to situations where some (admittedly a small number) female athletes have to take hormone blockers because they have too much testosterone naturally. https://www.wcpo.com/blogs/sports/iaaf-women-athletes-with-high-testosterone-mus The discussion here is about the affect on Semanya, but the rules are part of trying to define limits to trans atheletes as they'll have to meet the same bars, while the actual victims are cis women hurt by rule meant to 'protect them'.
The issue with this debate is we are taught as children that there are just 2 possibilities. Male or Female, XY or XX, Blue or Pink. It's simplistic and it's fine for 5 year olds, but doesn't prepare for the messiness of reality. As such you end up with a debate that must be black and white, when the world is full of shades of gray.
*Example of where bizarre parts of this culture war are being fought. BBC had an article about Endometriosis, they stated that it "affects 1 in 10 people of any age in the UK, who are assigned female at birth". Cue complaints that "Sex is not 'assigned at birth'". and the article is changed to "affects 1 in 10 women of any age in the UK". It's actually less accurate now, but it's not inclusive so some will still be happy they've 'won'.
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"The issue with this debate is we are taught as children that there are just 2 possibilities. Male or Female, XY or XX, Blue or Pink. It's simplistic and it's fine for 5 year olds, but doesn't prepare for the messiness of reality. As such you end up with a debate that must be black and white, when the world is full of shades of gray."
One of the things I got from the excellent discussion with trans people on Twitter that I referred to earlier, was that in at least some schools now things are very different, with education & discussion about gender fluidity as a perfectly natural & normal thing. It linked a sample piece - a pictorial explanation for young kids (I'd guess probably age 5-7) which I'll try & find later. |  |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 16:27 - Mar 27 with 730 views | lowhouseblue |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 14:30 - Mar 27 by Kievthegreat |
The problem with each of the "exceptions" is that they themselves have exceptions:
Healthcare - A Trans man can be just as effected by ovarian cancer if they are pre-op. Inclusive language though is reacted to angrily by culture warriors though. Example below*
Prisons - A trans women, who hasn't received a GRC, but has been living as a women for 10+ years goes to a male establishment, at significant risk to their safety. The prison service (England and Wales, Scotland may be different) may review cases.
Refuges - Trans women will be escaping violence too, should they be turned away? If a cis woman is concerned or it would affect her, steps should be taken to make them feel safe, but not at the expense of blocking trans women from refuges too.
Sport - What happens if you're intersex? You're born outward physical appearance female, but are actually XY or have 'too much testosterone'. While the others are far more important areas in terms of the impacts on womens lives (trans and cis), this is the one where there is a real difficulty in getting to a solution. There is a real issue in sport about how men and women are defined, because the latest push to measure hormone levels puts a bizarre arbitrary limit on how much oestrogen/testosterone makes a women. It leads to situations where some (admittedly a small number) female athletes have to take hormone blockers because they have too much testosterone naturally. https://www.wcpo.com/blogs/sports/iaaf-women-athletes-with-high-testosterone-mus The discussion here is about the affect on Semanya, but the rules are part of trying to define limits to trans atheletes as they'll have to meet the same bars, while the actual victims are cis women hurt by rule meant to 'protect them'.
The issue with this debate is we are taught as children that there are just 2 possibilities. Male or Female, XY or XX, Blue or Pink. It's simplistic and it's fine for 5 year olds, but doesn't prepare for the messiness of reality. As such you end up with a debate that must be black and white, when the world is full of shades of gray.
*Example of where bizarre parts of this culture war are being fought. BBC had an article about Endometriosis, they stated that it "affects 1 in 10 people of any age in the UK, who are assigned female at birth". Cue complaints that "Sex is not 'assigned at birth'". and the article is changed to "affects 1 in 10 women of any age in the UK". It's actually less accurate now, but it's not inclusive so some will still be happy they've 'won'.
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health care - yes it's all about biology - how can it not be. in health care we need to be precise with language - biological men and biological women.
prisons - the problem with what you say is that a significant number of the trans women in prison are there because of convictions for sexual assaults on women.
refuges - i agree we need provision for trans people, but it can't be at the expense of biological women who have suffered violence from people with male bodies.
sport - intersex is a very small proportion of the population. perhaps that's where the focus on testosterone has come from. but it just doesn't work in lots of spots for trans women athletes. the issue is not the level of testosterone today, it's that testosterone at adolescence and afterwards has caused permanent differences in their bodies. supressing testosterone now doesn't remove those advantages. the recent US student swimming championship is an example of how ridiculous the current rules are in some sports. why is it that we only have this discussion in relation to women's sport? why aren't trans men with testosterone boosting competing at the top levels on men's sport? it's because of much wider biological differences not just testosterone.
the problem here is that we have two perfectly logical systems for categorising people gender which is socially defined and self identifying, and as you say is non-binary, and biology which for 99.9% of people leads to a dualism. in most social situations gender is a the correct, decent, respectful and legally appropriate way of considering people. but you can't wish biology away - it doesn't cease to exist because of any social convention. and in a small number of situations biology has to take precedence. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 16:46 - Mar 27 with 697 views | Kievthegreat |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 16:27 - Mar 27 by lowhouseblue |
health care - yes it's all about biology - how can it not be. in health care we need to be precise with language - biological men and biological women.
prisons - the problem with what you say is that a significant number of the trans women in prison are there because of convictions for sexual assaults on women.
refuges - i agree we need provision for trans people, but it can't be at the expense of biological women who have suffered violence from people with male bodies.
sport - intersex is a very small proportion of the population. perhaps that's where the focus on testosterone has come from. but it just doesn't work in lots of spots for trans women athletes. the issue is not the level of testosterone today, it's that testosterone at adolescence and afterwards has caused permanent differences in their bodies. supressing testosterone now doesn't remove those advantages. the recent US student swimming championship is an example of how ridiculous the current rules are in some sports. why is it that we only have this discussion in relation to women's sport? why aren't trans men with testosterone boosting competing at the top levels on men's sport? it's because of much wider biological differences not just testosterone.
the problem here is that we have two perfectly logical systems for categorising people gender which is socially defined and self identifying, and as you say is non-binary, and biology which for 99.9% of people leads to a dualism. in most social situations gender is a the correct, decent, respectful and legally appropriate way of considering people. but you can't wish biology away - it doesn't cease to exist because of any social convention. and in a small number of situations biology has to take precedence. |
There's a lot to get back on, but you need to explain "significant number of the trans women in prison are there because of convictions for sexual assaults on women." What evidence is there of this? It's an extremely serious statement with nothing seemingly backing it up?
Bearing in mind out of out of a population of 78,000 in there UK at last count there were 197 trans people without GRC certificate and 10 with a GRC in the entire estate. Most also in prisons corresponding to their legal gender, not their identity. How many are there "because of sexual assaults on women"?
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attac
If you want some facts, there are more sexual assaults and rapes of trans women in Male prisons than those perpetrated by trans women in the female estate. And remember, there are less than 200 trans women in the entire estate total.
https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/05/21/trans-prisoners-victims-sexual-assault-mor [Post edited 27 Mar 2022 16:48]
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 16:49 - Mar 27 with 676 views | monytowbray |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 16:27 - Mar 27 by lowhouseblue |
health care - yes it's all about biology - how can it not be. in health care we need to be precise with language - biological men and biological women.
prisons - the problem with what you say is that a significant number of the trans women in prison are there because of convictions for sexual assaults on women.
refuges - i agree we need provision for trans people, but it can't be at the expense of biological women who have suffered violence from people with male bodies.
sport - intersex is a very small proportion of the population. perhaps that's where the focus on testosterone has come from. but it just doesn't work in lots of spots for trans women athletes. the issue is not the level of testosterone today, it's that testosterone at adolescence and afterwards has caused permanent differences in their bodies. supressing testosterone now doesn't remove those advantages. the recent US student swimming championship is an example of how ridiculous the current rules are in some sports. why is it that we only have this discussion in relation to women's sport? why aren't trans men with testosterone boosting competing at the top levels on men's sport? it's because of much wider biological differences not just testosterone.
the problem here is that we have two perfectly logical systems for categorising people gender which is socially defined and self identifying, and as you say is non-binary, and biology which for 99.9% of people leads to a dualism. in most social situations gender is a the correct, decent, respectful and legally appropriate way of considering people. but you can't wish biology away - it doesn't cease to exist because of any social convention. and in a small number of situations biology has to take precedence. |
Healthcare - They don’t do what you are claiming, and again you are conflating gender (a social construct) with biological sex interchangeably. Do you believe doctors will sit and pretend a trans female has a uterus? You are being transphobic without even realising it. You don’t actually understand the issue because you’ve made stuff up (or followed someone else’s made up narrative).
Prison - Where did you find the data to state why trans people are in prison? It’s not a data piece I’ve ever seen nor could I locate.
Refuge - No one is saying otherwise.
Sport - Jury is still out for me on that one so no comment until more info or research comes to light.
The last paragraph continues on the idea of erasing biology as opposed to gender. So you again, are pushing a transphobic narrative. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 16:52 - Mar 27 with 656 views | lowhouseblue |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 16:46 - Mar 27 by Kievthegreat |
There's a lot to get back on, but you need to explain "significant number of the trans women in prison are there because of convictions for sexual assaults on women." What evidence is there of this? It's an extremely serious statement with nothing seemingly backing it up?
Bearing in mind out of out of a population of 78,000 in there UK at last count there were 197 trans people without GRC certificate and 10 with a GRC in the entire estate. Most also in prisons corresponding to their legal gender, not their identity. How many are there "because of sexual assaults on women"?
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attac
If you want some facts, there are more sexual assaults and rapes of trans women in Male prisons than those perpetrated by trans women in the female estate. And remember, there are less than 200 trans women in the entire estate total.
https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/05/21/trans-prisoners-victims-sexual-assault-mor [Post edited 27 Mar 2022 16:48]
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the guardian
"The court heard that in 2019 there were 163 transgender prisoners in England and Wales, 81 of whom had been convicted of one or more sexual offences. Of the 163, 34 were held in women’s prisons."
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jul/02/trans-women-with-sex-offence-con | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 16:56 - Mar 27 with 640 views | monytowbray |
And the next paragraph…
“Between 2016 and 2019, a total of 97 sexual assaults were recorded in women’s prisons, of which seven appeared to be committed by transgender prisoners without a GRC. It is not known whether any were committed by transgender women with a GRC but the number of transgender prisoners with a GRC across all jails is thought to be in single figures.”
Cherry picking stats. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 17:00 - Mar 27 with 622 views | lowhouseblue |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 16:56 - Mar 27 by monytowbray |
And the next paragraph…
“Between 2016 and 2019, a total of 97 sexual assaults were recorded in women’s prisons, of which seven appeared to be committed by transgender prisoners without a GRC. It is not known whether any were committed by transgender women with a GRC but the number of transgender prisoners with a GRC across all jails is thought to be in single figures.”
Cherry picking stats. |
you can't actually follow a discussion, which makes things a bit pointless
i was asked for the data to back up my statement: "a significant number of the trans women in prison are there because of convictions for sexual assaults on women."
I provided the data and the source. you then start talking about something different as if it relates to my original statement, which it doesn't. i didn't say anything about assaults committed in prisons. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 17:11 - Mar 27 with 598 views | monytowbray |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 17:00 - Mar 27 by lowhouseblue |
you can't actually follow a discussion, which makes things a bit pointless
i was asked for the data to back up my statement: "a significant number of the trans women in prison are there because of convictions for sexual assaults on women."
I provided the data and the source. you then start talking about something different as if it relates to my original statement, which it doesn't. i didn't say anything about assaults committed in prisons. |
Nah mate, you’re just being transphobic at this point.
https://www.transactual.org.uk/transphobia
If you can’t see the link between some of the posts in this thread (including your own) and some of the points on this list I’ll happily break it down help connect the dots for you. Not that I have much hope for you considering any of it as a poster who just replies “wibble” when backed into a corner (whilst ironically screaming others can’t follow discussion). | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 17:12 - Mar 27 with 597 views | Kievthegreat |
https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2021/1746.html
Judges Summary:
"The total number of known transgender persons in the prison estate is small, though there may well be others who prefer not to declare their identification as the opposite gender. In the course of this hearing, the obtaining of clear evidence as to the relevant statistics proved elusive, not least because the data collected by the Defendant do not include transgender prisoners who have obtained a GRC. Moreover, the data provided to the court lacked clarity, and left many questions unanswered: for example, it was unclear whether references to prisoners with convictions for sexual offences related only to prisoners currently serving a sentence for that type of offence, or also included prisoners who had in the past been convicted of such offences. Nor was it clear whether previous sexual offences by a transgender prisoner were committed before or after the person concerned expressed a wish to live in the opposite gender.
What can be said, however, is that data collected across the prison estate in March/April 2019 recorded the following:
i) There were 163 transgender prisoners, of whom 81 had been convicted of one or more sexual offences.
ii) 129 of those prisoners were allocated to the male estate, 34 to the female estate. Of the 129 in the male estate, 74 had been convicted of one or more sexual offences.
iii) Although no records are kept, the number of transgender prisoners with a GRC is thought to be very low: a single-figure total across the estate as a whole."
So there were 7 transwomen (without a GRC) and an unknown single figure number with a GRC for which there is no data. That's the total in the entire female estate. | | | |
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