| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 12:16 - Mar 26 with 1220 views | Darth_Koont |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 11:58 - Mar 26 by Bobbychase |
I think we can all agree on your last point.
And now I really must go. The sun is shining and I want an al fresco beer before we pummel Plymouth. |
Hope you have a great day. And here’s to 3 points for the icing on the cake! |  |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 12:27 - Mar 26 with 1173 views | Ryorry |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 11:23 - Mar 26 by monytowbray |
If you support “genuine” trans people, stop reciting right wing reactionary points designed to scare you into the idea it’s a hack for men with evil intentions to sneak into women’s spaces to perv or commit sexual violence.
And stop making out being pulled up on such transphobic angles is ironically your rights as a women being trampled on. Same energy as those who scream REVERSE RACISM at being called a “gammon” after racist remarks. [Post edited 26 Mar 2022 11:31]
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I've simply cited some voices of ordinary, biological women including myself, who are fully supportive of genuine trans peoples' rights.
Sorry that's not good enough for you - your aiming the kind of rhetoric in that post of yours that you did at me simply proves BobbyChase & Lowhouse's points, and drives the wedge deeper, increasing the tribalism & division between what really shouldn't be the two "sides".
Sorry to hear of your traumatic experiences btw. |  |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 12:31 - Mar 26 with 1166 views | Darth_Koont |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 12:27 - Mar 26 by Ryorry |
I've simply cited some voices of ordinary, biological women including myself, who are fully supportive of genuine trans peoples' rights.
Sorry that's not good enough for you - your aiming the kind of rhetoric in that post of yours that you did at me simply proves BobbyChase & Lowhouse's points, and drives the wedge deeper, increasing the tribalism & division between what really shouldn't be the two "sides".
Sorry to hear of your traumatic experiences btw. |
I wouldn’t lump bobbychase in with you and lowers.
He’s not coming at it with the same reactionary, divisive and tribal talking points from what I can see. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 12:33 - Mar 26 with 1154 views | Ryorry |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 12:31 - Mar 26 by Darth_Koont |
I wouldn’t lump bobbychase in with you and lowers.
He’s not coming at it with the same reactionary, divisive and tribal talking points from what I can see. |
You ignorant man. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 12:38 - Mar 26 with 1126 views | monytowbray |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 12:27 - Mar 26 by Ryorry |
I've simply cited some voices of ordinary, biological women including myself, who are fully supportive of genuine trans peoples' rights.
Sorry that's not good enough for you - your aiming the kind of rhetoric in that post of yours that you did at me simply proves BobbyChase & Lowhouse's points, and drives the wedge deeper, increasing the tribalism & division between what really shouldn't be the two "sides".
Sorry to hear of your traumatic experiences btw. |
You aren’t actually responding to my point though, which is you are pushing a myth of the danger of trans people in women spaces.
The continual use of the word “genuine” before transpeople sits odd to me too. Who exactly is this group of “non-genuine” trans people and what exactly excludes them? It’s promoting the concept of a bogey[s]man[/s]person that doesn’t exist.
As I said, if a man wants to commit sexual violence there are far easier ways to do so, and ones that are less likely to get one caught for said crimes, than years of hormone therapy and risking socially outcasting oneself. [Post edited 26 Mar 2022 12:42]
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 12:53 - Mar 26 with 1097 views | Ryorry |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 12:38 - Mar 26 by monytowbray |
You aren’t actually responding to my point though, which is you are pushing a myth of the danger of trans people in women spaces.
The continual use of the word “genuine” before transpeople sits odd to me too. Who exactly is this group of “non-genuine” trans people and what exactly excludes them? It’s promoting the concept of a bogey[s]man[/s]person that doesn’t exist.
As I said, if a man wants to commit sexual violence there are far easier ways to do so, and ones that are less likely to get one caught for said crimes, than years of hormone therapy and risking socially outcasting oneself. [Post edited 26 Mar 2022 12:42]
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I had a really interesting convo on Twitter on the whole topic/issue with about 15 people (all but one of whom were trans) a few weeks back.
It was nuanced, informative, educative and civil. As this thread indicates the same isn't possible here, I'll leave it there. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 12:53 - Mar 26 with 1099 views | J2BLUE |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 12:33 - Mar 26 by Ryorry |
You ignorant man. |
I wouldn't waste your time here. |  |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 13:00 - Mar 26 with 1083 views | monytowbray |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 12:53 - Mar 26 by Ryorry |
I had a really interesting convo on Twitter on the whole topic/issue with about 15 people (all but one of whom were trans) a few weeks back.
It was nuanced, informative, educative and civil. As this thread indicates the same isn't possible here, I'll leave it there. |
One hell of a swerve. Is my point really so hard for you to swallow you have to ignore even acknowledging it a third time and claim the moral high ground of being above the discussion? | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 13:01 - Mar 26 with 1088 views | Darth_Koont |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 12:53 - Mar 26 by J2BLUE |
I wouldn't waste your time here. |
Agreed. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 13:01 - Mar 26 with 1078 views | monytowbray |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 12:53 - Mar 26 by J2BLUE |
I wouldn't waste your time here. |
Yeah, god forbid you may learn about basic human rights and false flag right wing narratives one has hoovered up with glee. [Post edited 26 Mar 2022 13:04]
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 13:18 - Mar 26 with 1038 views | Ryorry |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 13:00 - Mar 26 by monytowbray |
One hell of a swerve. Is my point really so hard for you to swallow you have to ignore even acknowledging it a third time and claim the moral high ground of being above the discussion? |
Thanks for proving my point. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 13:25 - Mar 26 with 1021 views | J2BLUE |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 13:01 - Mar 26 by monytowbray |
Yeah, god forbid you may learn about basic human rights and false flag right wing narratives one has hoovered up with glee. [Post edited 26 Mar 2022 13:04]
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People like you who refuse to allow any discussion by just trying to shout over everyone do way more harm than good. Women have every right to bring up issues relating to their own safety without your permission.
Shouting transphobia at every issue is just silly but you can only deal in extremes as you have proven repeatedly over the last few years.
I'm off to enjoy some sun. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 13:27 - Mar 26 with 1007 views | monytowbray |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 13:18 - Mar 26 by Ryorry |
Thanks for proving my point. |
Read back. Three times I’ve challenged and explained clearly how you are pushing transphobic myths. You’ve not even acknowledged those words. Not justified it. Not defended it. Not disbuted it. Just ignored it entirely. Not even answered my question on what a “non-genuine” transperson is.
It’s above for all to read, you can’t gaslight the above written word. The entire convsersation is public record.
You’re being ignorant. Plain and simple. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 13:29 - Mar 26 with 1001 views | monytowbray |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 13:25 - Mar 26 by J2BLUE |
People like you who refuse to allow any discussion by just trying to shout over everyone do way more harm than good. Women have every right to bring up issues relating to their own safety without your permission.
Shouting transphobia at every issue is just silly but you can only deal in extremes as you have proven repeatedly over the last few years.
I'm off to enjoy some sun. |
I’m not closing anyone down. My posts are open ended to response.
Ryorry is choosing to ignore them. Possibly one of the swerviest swerves I’ve seen on here. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 13:29 - Mar 26 with 1006 views | jeera |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 12:16 - Mar 26 by Darth_Koont |
Hope you have a great day. And here’s to 3 points for the icing on the cake! |
There's cake? |  |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 13:35 - Mar 26 with 958 views | leitrimblue |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 13:29 - Mar 26 by jeera |
There's cake? |
Hope its not carrot cake. Ti's a crime against cake |  | | |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 13:35 - Mar 26 with 955 views | Darth_Koont |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 13:29 - Mar 26 by jeera |
There's cake? |
There’s always cake, jeers. | |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 13:44 - Mar 26 with 920 views | footers |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 13:35 - Mar 26 by leitrimblue |
Hope its not carrot cake. Ti's a crime against cake |
Woah there, fella. Let's not fall out...
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 13:55 - Mar 26 with 885 views | leitrimblue |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 13:44 - Mar 26 by footers |
Woah there, fella. Let's not fall out...
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There's nothing worse then being told 'there's cake', only to find out it's vegetables dressed up as cake. If you absolutely cover it in cream, strawberries and chocolate it may just about make it palatable. I wouldn't wanna fall out over cake of any form, so probably best we just never discuss it again... | | | |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 14:03 - Mar 26 with 875 views | tractordownsouth |
Quite often people will make endorsements to cause trouble - Despite my views on Corbyn, I don't think David Duke and Nick Griffin praising him a few years back means he's a nazi. Similarly, Katie Hopkins supported Lisa Nandy in the last Labour leadership contest, knowing full well she wouldn't want her backing. Again, that doesn't mean they're comparable - similar to Rowling and Putin.
The gender debate is a very complex one - I don't think being against self-ID is transphobic, in the same way that I don't think being in favour is automatically misogynistic. The issue is more with the rhetoric - I saw an old tweet from a prominent anti-trans activist (a regular on GB News no less) saying that trans people don't exist, and that parents who change gender ID are child abusers. Those are clearly the views of a transphobe and extremist. However, the concern about same-sex spaces is a legitimate one as long as it is not expressed abusively
My personal view would be to increase NHS provision for gender re-assignment surgery because the process is currently far too slow, and amend the GRA so trans people get their gender certificate once they have transitioned, rather than having to wait 2 years after their operation. To me it seems fair to allow access to women's spaces to men who have transitioned - as a man if a biologically-male trans woman came into a male toilet I wouldn't feel threatened but I can understand why it may be difficult for women to have self-ID. Of course that's not to suggest trans people are changing their gender identity to commit sexual assault (implications like that are of course wrong), just to recognise that women are sadly greater victims of abuse so will be naturally more wary, on top of the physical differences.
For things like prison access during transition, I think that should be a case by case thing - a man transitioning to a woman would probably be target for abuse in a men's prison but similarly female prisoners could feel uneasy - it's about which is the greater risk. Similarly with toilets, if it were the Year 0, we could remove the debate by having a few gender neutral single cubicles instead of large male or female facilities and many universities are doing this in new buildings which is a great idea, but it's unrealistic to expect all existing bathrooms to be completely renovated.
Not that it's about me but as a man I think it's a difficult balance to strike so as not to shout over women in the debate but also recognise that transgender people are the most marginalised minority in the country so need support as well. [Post edited 26 Mar 2022 14:04]
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 14:29 - Mar 26 with 819 views | Durovigutum |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 14:03 - Mar 26 by tractordownsouth |
Quite often people will make endorsements to cause trouble - Despite my views on Corbyn, I don't think David Duke and Nick Griffin praising him a few years back means he's a nazi. Similarly, Katie Hopkins supported Lisa Nandy in the last Labour leadership contest, knowing full well she wouldn't want her backing. Again, that doesn't mean they're comparable - similar to Rowling and Putin.
The gender debate is a very complex one - I don't think being against self-ID is transphobic, in the same way that I don't think being in favour is automatically misogynistic. The issue is more with the rhetoric - I saw an old tweet from a prominent anti-trans activist (a regular on GB News no less) saying that trans people don't exist, and that parents who change gender ID are child abusers. Those are clearly the views of a transphobe and extremist. However, the concern about same-sex spaces is a legitimate one as long as it is not expressed abusively
My personal view would be to increase NHS provision for gender re-assignment surgery because the process is currently far too slow, and amend the GRA so trans people get their gender certificate once they have transitioned, rather than having to wait 2 years after their operation. To me it seems fair to allow access to women's spaces to men who have transitioned - as a man if a biologically-male trans woman came into a male toilet I wouldn't feel threatened but I can understand why it may be difficult for women to have self-ID. Of course that's not to suggest trans people are changing their gender identity to commit sexual assault (implications like that are of course wrong), just to recognise that women are sadly greater victims of abuse so will be naturally more wary, on top of the physical differences.
For things like prison access during transition, I think that should be a case by case thing - a man transitioning to a woman would probably be target for abuse in a men's prison but similarly female prisoners could feel uneasy - it's about which is the greater risk. Similarly with toilets, if it were the Year 0, we could remove the debate by having a few gender neutral single cubicles instead of large male or female facilities and many universities are doing this in new buildings which is a great idea, but it's unrealistic to expect all existing bathrooms to be completely renovated.
Not that it's about me but as a man I think it's a difficult balance to strike so as not to shout over women in the debate but also recognise that transgender people are the most marginalised minority in the country so need support as well. [Post edited 26 Mar 2022 14:04]
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Far too sensible a response for a sunny Saturday afternoon.
It's said that the best thing to do with any situation is to try to walk a mile in the person's shoes. I've tried, but am unable to empathise with a Trans person - I'm not capable. Best thing is to not have an opinion as a result.
However, there are a few places where I must - safeguarding young adults is one. Knowing some men are sexually depraved to the point of being evil and will actively take advantage of rules/laws put in place for the benefit of others is where I struggle with the argument. The problem is the wrong headed men, not the trans community, but the debate gets lost and therefore how do I respond? |  | | |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 14:37 - Mar 26 with 806 views | leitrimblue |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 13:55 - Mar 26 by leitrimblue |
There's nothing worse then being told 'there's cake', only to find out it's vegetables dressed up as cake. If you absolutely cover it in cream, strawberries and chocolate it may just about make it palatable. I wouldn't wanna fall out over cake of any form, so probably best we just never discuss it again... |
I just read the 3 previous pages and realised this isn't a cake thread. Sorry | | | |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 14:52 - Mar 26 with 788 views | Ryorry |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 13:27 - Mar 26 by monytowbray |
Read back. Three times I’ve challenged and explained clearly how you are pushing transphobic myths. You’ve not even acknowledged those words. Not justified it. Not defended it. Not disbuted it. Just ignored it entirely. Not even answered my question on what a “non-genuine” transperson is.
It’s above for all to read, you can’t gaslight the above written word. The entire convsersation is public record.
You’re being ignorant. Plain and simple. |
Fwiw the only reason I refuse to discuss this further with you is that you've already demonstrated that you're incapable (whether deliberately or otherwise) of understanding my pov, incapable of being nuanced about it, and that in every other single thread I've ever tried to discuss serious stuff with you, you've ended up making up such defamatory sh1t about me & generally being so abusive that Phil's had to delete it all & tell us to ignore each other.
Plus it's too lovely a sunny day to be inside on a 10-pager, and k/o's only 8 mins away.
Fingers crossed for 3 pts, COYB 👠| |
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| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 16:25 - Mar 26 with 705 views | ClareBlue |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 18:32 - Mar 25 by BlueBadger |
JK is the new golliwog for a certain flavour of dickhead now that she's outed herself an open and unashamed bigot. |
have you actually read what she wrote
there is nothing bigoted in it. just asking very valid questions based on her experiences of domestic violence. if you don't agree with her say why, but don't label someone when you obviously have no idea what she actually wrote. |  | | |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 07:38 - Mar 27 with 553 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Well here’s a news story we all could have predicted on 00:12 - Mar 26 by JDB23 |
Interesting that Putin uses the exact same language as the reactionaries of the West, I wonder if they will take a moment of self reflection? Nah, course not. |
Amazing how people with grudges are quite happy to Parrott Putin’s propaganda when it suits.
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