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No fines for Starmer 12:36 - Jul 8 with 4077 viewsGlasgowBlue


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No fines for Starmer on 14:34 - Jul 8 with 1226 viewsLord_Lucan

No fines for Starmer on 13:55 - Jul 8 by unbelievablue

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No fines for Starmer on 14:43 - Jul 8 with 1188 viewsunbelievablue

No fines for Starmer on 14:34 - Jul 8 by Lord_Lucan

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No fines for Starmer on 14:53 - Jul 8 with 1169 viewsSwansea_Blue

No fines for Starmer on 12:58 - Jul 8 by GlasgowBlue

Most of it came from embittered Corbynites actually. They are now having a meltdown on twitter after saying all week that he had been fined but taken out a super injunction.


Possibly, but embittered Corbynites on twitter have no reach. The Tory-friendly press who pumped this stuff out on their front pages for day after day will have been far more influential in setting the false narrative (that's their sole purpose after all).
[Post edited 8 Jul 2022 14:55]

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No fines for Starmer on 15:03 - Jul 8 with 1146 viewsGlasgowBlue

No fines for Starmer on 14:53 - Jul 8 by Swansea_Blue

Possibly, but embittered Corbynites on twitter have no reach. The Tory-friendly press who pumped this stuff out on their front pages for day after day will have been far more influential in setting the false narrative (that's their sole purpose after all).
[Post edited 8 Jul 2022 14:55]


I'd say social media has a far greater reach than the dead tree press these days.

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No fines for Starmer on 15:16 - Jul 8 with 1105 viewsmylittletown

No fines for Starmer on 13:40 - Jul 8 by Darth_Koont

I can’t speak for your friend but I don’t differentiate from Starmer’s Labour and the Conservative Party in any serious way.

They are two centre-right, neoliberal, self-interested and relatively authoritarian offerings, and neither seem to be addressing the underlying issues or future challenges in our society and economy.

Bring the actual nuance of what policies would help the people of the UK – now and in the future – and then I think we’d see a different debate and the major parties having to respond rather than say they’re the only game in town so suck it!

Moving from sh1t government to sh1t government doesn’t sound like much of a plan. And just cements the difficulties the UK is facing.


How about moving from government by a bunch of liars and crooks to a government of comparatively honest people?
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No fines for Starmer on 15:21 - Jul 8 with 1048 viewsitfcjoe

No fines for Starmer on 15:03 - Jul 8 by GlasgowBlue

I'd say social media has a far greater reach than the dead tree press these days.


It was noted, not sure where from, by Steve Richards that the 'dead tree press' control roughly 6% of the electorate with regards to voting pattern etc

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No fines for Starmer on 15:32 - Jul 8 with 1057 viewsDarth_Koont

No fines for Starmer on 15:16 - Jul 8 by mylittletown

How about moving from government by a bunch of liars and crooks to a government of comparatively honest people?


I think Starmer is inherently dishonest and I think the Labour Right are just as self-serving and looking to get paid as the Tories.

I’ve seen too much from them over the years to think otherwise.

Also and far more importantly I think they’ll still damage the country with their weak policies and leave millions in the lurch. Not as much as the Tories in all likelihood – but it’s like comparing two arsonists, one of whom will burn everything in a fireball and the other that will burn the house down in an orderly and competent way.

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No fines for Starmer on 15:37 - Jul 8 with 1060 viewsBlueBadger

Apparently his press statement simply reads 'LOL'.

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No fines for Starmer on 16:08 - Jul 8 with 1024 viewsmylittletown

No fines for Starmer on 15:32 - Jul 8 by Darth_Koont

I think Starmer is inherently dishonest and I think the Labour Right are just as self-serving and looking to get paid as the Tories.

I’ve seen too much from them over the years to think otherwise.

Also and far more importantly I think they’ll still damage the country with their weak policies and leave millions in the lurch. Not as much as the Tories in all likelihood – but it’s like comparing two arsonists, one of whom will burn everything in a fireball and the other that will burn the house down in an orderly and competent way.


I agree that neither of them will govern with policies that I feel are ideal.

However, you have a choice of one or the other, or possibly a coalition based largely on Labour. Of those, Labour or a coalition based around Labour are obviously the preferable choice.

That is the only set of realistic outcomes unless we get a true form of PR.

Even if we do get a decent form of PR, no party much further left than the centre of the current labour party will get any serious traction. Anything further left just becomes a pointless Wolfie Smith exercise
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No fines for Starmer on 16:31 - Jul 8 with 1014 viewsThe_Flashing_Smile

No fines for Starmer on 15:21 - Jul 8 by itfcjoe

It was noted, not sure where from, by Steve Richards that the 'dead tree press' control roughly 6% of the electorate with regards to voting pattern etc


The 'dead tree press' all have online presence/sway as well though.

Trust the process. Trust Phil.

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No fines for Starmer on 16:38 - Jul 8 with 1001 viewsJimmy86

No fines for Starmer on 12:59 - Jul 8 by The_Flashing_Smile

The right wing love a smear.


Last season the right wing loved a low cross zipped across the box 😜😉
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No fines for Starmer on 16:39 - Jul 8 with 988 viewsDarth_Koont

No fines for Starmer on 16:08 - Jul 8 by mylittletown

I agree that neither of them will govern with policies that I feel are ideal.

However, you have a choice of one or the other, or possibly a coalition based largely on Labour. Of those, Labour or a coalition based around Labour are obviously the preferable choice.

That is the only set of realistic outcomes unless we get a true form of PR.

Even if we do get a decent form of PR, no party much further left than the centre of the current labour party will get any serious traction. Anything further left just becomes a pointless Wolfie Smith exercise


I agree if we were talking the day before an election or once the campaign period starts.

But there’s still time before the next election for Labour to have a point in the real world. They need to be held to account and this is the problem with Starmer, holding him to account and being critical shows he’s lied about all 10 leadership pledges, his belief in a social democratic foundation to the party, party unity and democracy. And his shape-shifting on Brexit, tax, minimum wage, unions, the NHS etc. is also sketchy.

We knew what Boris was because he was brazen about it and even celebrated for it. We need to look closer to see who others are but when, like Starmer, they show us we shouldn’t ignore it and pretend everything will be alright. Or we’ve literally learnt nothing from the Boris disaster.

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No fines for Starmer on 17:58 - Jul 8 with 918 viewsSwansea_Blue

No fines for Starmer on 16:31 - Jul 8 by The_Flashing_Smile

The 'dead tree press' all have online presence/sway as well though.


And it gets picked up and reflected by national broadcasters too. The Beeb will pick up and lead with stories broken by the printed press, but don’t do that with Twitter (despite creep in that direction, like the pointless rolling ticker of tweets in sports coverage).

There’s a reason very wealthy, powerful media moguls court and donate to the Tories.

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No fines for Starmer on 18:11 - Jul 8 with 888 viewsDarth_Koont

No fines for Starmer on 16:08 - Jul 8 by mylittletown

I agree that neither of them will govern with policies that I feel are ideal.

However, you have a choice of one or the other, or possibly a coalition based largely on Labour. Of those, Labour or a coalition based around Labour are obviously the preferable choice.

That is the only set of realistic outcomes unless we get a true form of PR.

Even if we do get a decent form of PR, no party much further left than the centre of the current labour party will get any serious traction. Anything further left just becomes a pointless Wolfie Smith exercise


I don’t think that’s true in the real world of the voter as left of centre policies have a lot of backing when presented on their own merits.

You’re right about what the mainstream press and political establishment consider to be “too left”. But that’s the heart of our political deficit right there ... the electorate being told what is acceptable or even what is the centre when it’s clearly centre right.

Labour’s manifestos in 2017 and 2019 were affordable and practicable. And no different from Scandinavian social democracy or even German pragmatism.

It’s important to keep arguing that case and not just settling for what is in the interest of the two main parties and their insatiable need to get paid.

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No fines for Starmer on 19:40 - Jul 8 with 847 viewsCrayonKing

No fines for Starmer on 18:11 - Jul 8 by Darth_Koont

I don’t think that’s true in the real world of the voter as left of centre policies have a lot of backing when presented on their own merits.

You’re right about what the mainstream press and political establishment consider to be “too left”. But that’s the heart of our political deficit right there ... the electorate being told what is acceptable or even what is the centre when it’s clearly centre right.

Labour’s manifestos in 2017 and 2019 were affordable and practicable. And no different from Scandinavian social democracy or even German pragmatism.

It’s important to keep arguing that case and not just settling for what is in the interest of the two main parties and their insatiable need to get paid.


"Labour’s manifestos in 2017 and 2019 were affordable and practicable. And no different from Scandinavian social democracy or even German pragmatism."

Excellent. Sounds like the sort of thing a competent centre-left leader might actually get a chance to implement
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No fines for Starmer on 19:41 - Jul 8 with 843 viewsThe_Flashing_Smile

No fines for Starmer on 18:11 - Jul 8 by Darth_Koont

I don’t think that’s true in the real world of the voter as left of centre policies have a lot of backing when presented on their own merits.

You’re right about what the mainstream press and political establishment consider to be “too left”. But that’s the heart of our political deficit right there ... the electorate being told what is acceptable or even what is the centre when it’s clearly centre right.

Labour’s manifestos in 2017 and 2019 were affordable and practicable. And no different from Scandinavian social democracy or even German pragmatism.

It’s important to keep arguing that case and not just settling for what is in the interest of the two main parties and their insatiable need to get paid.


I see what you're saying and I'm torn. Part of me wants to keep arguing the case for this other way. Part of me actually thinks, yeah just look a bit like the Tories in order to get in, and then make your changes. The people, to my mind, won't accept it until they see it in action, working, and the Tories break most of their promises so why shouldn't Labour play the same game?

That was my real mistake with Corbyn. Not his ideals but how to get them in/done. Unlike you I can see the appeal of Starmer - respectable ex lawyer, safe, sensible, doesn't really ruffle feathers (or particularly excite them). He's the opposite of Corbyn, which might be a good thing given how poorly Corbyn did at the ballot box.

I've always liked Andy Burnham - a lot nearer to Corbyn but better liked and less easy to smear I'd say. I also think Angela Rayner comes across well too.

It just seems this country is kinda selfish and just wants to look out for no.1 generally. Maybe we need to move to Scandinavia.

Trust the process. Trust Phil.

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No fines for Starmer on 19:43 - Jul 8 with 835 viewsDarth_Koont

No fines for Starmer on 19:40 - Jul 8 by CrayonKing

"Labour’s manifestos in 2017 and 2019 were affordable and practicable. And no different from Scandinavian social democracy or even German pragmatism."

Excellent. Sounds like the sort of thing a competent centre-left leader might actually get a chance to implement


If you’re thinking of Starmer, he’s already distanced himself from that. He is as centre left as Johnson.

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No fines for Starmer on 10:49 - Jul 9 with 694 viewsArnoldMoorhen

No fines for Starmer on 18:11 - Jul 8 by Darth_Koont

I don’t think that’s true in the real world of the voter as left of centre policies have a lot of backing when presented on their own merits.

You’re right about what the mainstream press and political establishment consider to be “too left”. But that’s the heart of our political deficit right there ... the electorate being told what is acceptable or even what is the centre when it’s clearly centre right.

Labour’s manifestos in 2017 and 2019 were affordable and practicable. And no different from Scandinavian social democracy or even German pragmatism.

It’s important to keep arguing that case and not just settling for what is in the interest of the two main parties and their insatiable need to get paid.


Honest question:

Are you confident that an SNP Government in an Independent Scotland would be significantly more left wing than a Starmer UK Government?

And that it would be sufficiently left wing for you?
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No fines for Starmer on 11:22 - Jul 9 with 651 viewsDarth_Koont

No fines for Starmer on 10:49 - Jul 9 by ArnoldMoorhen

Honest question:

Are you confident that an SNP Government in an Independent Scotland would be significantly more left wing than a Starmer UK Government?

And that it would be sufficiently left wing for you?


Yeah, I think they would. The SNP is a broad church that spans the centre ... but the Scottish centre is significantly to the left of the supposed Westminster centre.

And Starmer is unabashedly centre-right on the big questions of government like the economy, state investment and health and welfare. Their recent welcome support for LGBTQ people is good but still more hesitant than the SNP has been. Ditto green infrastructure.

But independence is the first step. I think Scottish politics would be transformed as Scottish Labour and Conservative parties and voters would have to actually engage 100% in Scottish politics rather than trying and failing to prop up their UK masters.

My guess is that the SNP would become a social democrat party post-independence. And the LibDems or similar would form the centre-right alternative. I suspect Labour voters will comfortably see themselves as SNP and Green voters and partners once the UK grift is up. And the Tories would have to decide if they want to keep pitching right like UKIP or a Brexit Party or engage around real-world issues that might make them coalition partners for the LibDems.

I expect we may well see a few name changes too to remove the toxicity of the different UK brands.

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No fines for Starmer on 11:38 - Jul 9 with 618 viewsDarth_Koont

No fines for Starmer on 19:41 - Jul 8 by The_Flashing_Smile

I see what you're saying and I'm torn. Part of me wants to keep arguing the case for this other way. Part of me actually thinks, yeah just look a bit like the Tories in order to get in, and then make your changes. The people, to my mind, won't accept it until they see it in action, working, and the Tories break most of their promises so why shouldn't Labour play the same game?

That was my real mistake with Corbyn. Not his ideals but how to get them in/done. Unlike you I can see the appeal of Starmer - respectable ex lawyer, safe, sensible, doesn't really ruffle feathers (or particularly excite them). He's the opposite of Corbyn, which might be a good thing given how poorly Corbyn did at the ballot box.

I've always liked Andy Burnham - a lot nearer to Corbyn but better liked and less easy to smear I'd say. I also think Angela Rayner comes across well too.

It just seems this country is kinda selfish and just wants to look out for no.1 generally. Maybe we need to move to Scandinavia.


"That was my real mistake with Corbyn. Not his ideals but how to get them in/done. Unlike you I can see the appeal of Starmer - respectable ex lawyer, safe, sensible, doesn't really ruffle feathers (or particularly excite them). He's the opposite of Corbyn, which might be a good thing given how poorly Corbyn did at the ballot box."

I said pretty much exactly the same thing myself about Starmer in the Labour leadership elections in early 2020. Since then, however, it's his blatant dishonesty and trampling on the platform he was elected on (all 10 leadership pledges broken, including party unity and actually having a vaguely centre-left foundation) that means I can't support him and will never trust him.

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No fines for Starmer on 11:53 - Jul 9 with 588 viewsArnoldMoorhen

No fines for Starmer on 11:22 - Jul 9 by Darth_Koont

Yeah, I think they would. The SNP is a broad church that spans the centre ... but the Scottish centre is significantly to the left of the supposed Westminster centre.

And Starmer is unabashedly centre-right on the big questions of government like the economy, state investment and health and welfare. Their recent welcome support for LGBTQ people is good but still more hesitant than the SNP has been. Ditto green infrastructure.

But independence is the first step. I think Scottish politics would be transformed as Scottish Labour and Conservative parties and voters would have to actually engage 100% in Scottish politics rather than trying and failing to prop up their UK masters.

My guess is that the SNP would become a social democrat party post-independence. And the LibDems or similar would form the centre-right alternative. I suspect Labour voters will comfortably see themselves as SNP and Green voters and partners once the UK grift is up. And the Tories would have to decide if they want to keep pitching right like UKIP or a Brexit Party or engage around real-world issues that might make them coalition partners for the LibDems.

I expect we may well see a few name changes too to remove the toxicity of the different UK brands.


The SNP seems to me to be signalling left of centre on the economy, particularly with regard to green energy investment. Sadly we are a decade behind Norway in that regard, but there is still the potential to get it right, sort clean energy for Scotland, and maybe even become an electricity exporter to England and on to the continent.

But the Stormont system makes a clear majority improbable, and so there will need to be some horse-trading and compromise. Obviously if SNP plus Greens gives a majority then that should not hinder things. If Labour are required things could get bitter and tribal, because of history in many places. The Scottish Lib Dems obviously have a difficult relationship with the SNP due to Charles Kennedy's seat loss and death, which may also cause difficulties for a unified progressive agenda.

All of the above is contingent on a solid win for independence, obviously.

Someone I have met in Edinburgh who is old Labour feels very strongly that the SNP have historically been an upper middle class body, and are really just "Conservatives in kilts", to use his phrase. I don't see that with people like Mhairi Black, or even Nicola Sturgeon, but that is his entrenched view, and people do have very long memories in Scottish politics!
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No fines for Starmer on 12:09 - Jul 9 with 570 viewsDarth_Koont

No fines for Starmer on 11:53 - Jul 9 by ArnoldMoorhen

The SNP seems to me to be signalling left of centre on the economy, particularly with regard to green energy investment. Sadly we are a decade behind Norway in that regard, but there is still the potential to get it right, sort clean energy for Scotland, and maybe even become an electricity exporter to England and on to the continent.

But the Stormont system makes a clear majority improbable, and so there will need to be some horse-trading and compromise. Obviously if SNP plus Greens gives a majority then that should not hinder things. If Labour are required things could get bitter and tribal, because of history in many places. The Scottish Lib Dems obviously have a difficult relationship with the SNP due to Charles Kennedy's seat loss and death, which may also cause difficulties for a unified progressive agenda.

All of the above is contingent on a solid win for independence, obviously.

Someone I have met in Edinburgh who is old Labour feels very strongly that the SNP have historically been an upper middle class body, and are really just "Conservatives in kilts", to use his phrase. I don't see that with people like Mhairi Black, or even Nicola Sturgeon, but that is his entrenched view, and people do have very long memories in Scottish politics!


Agree on the whole.

I think the SNP/Kennedy thing has been blown up for political point-scoring purposes – not that there wasn't some ugly stuff in the local fight.

And, as you say, there's very little to suggest "Conservatives in kilts" now. It was always more of a broad church than that even when Labour were on top. But a lot of left-leaning SNP voters and candidates have put paid to that.

Just to say, my predictions about how the political map could be drawn up post-independence are pure guesses really. I think all bets are off if and when Scotland gets to redefine its own politics, society and the economy.

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No fines for Starmer on 12:14 - Jul 9 with 565 viewsGlasgowBlue

No fines for Starmer on 12:09 - Jul 9 by Darth_Koont

Agree on the whole.

I think the SNP/Kennedy thing has been blown up for political point-scoring purposes – not that there wasn't some ugly stuff in the local fight.

And, as you say, there's very little to suggest "Conservatives in kilts" now. It was always more of a broad church than that even when Labour were on top. But a lot of left-leaning SNP voters and candidates have put paid to that.

Just to say, my predictions about how the political map could be drawn up post-independence are pure guesses really. I think all bets are off if and when Scotland gets to redefine its own politics, society and the economy.


At least they have moved on from being Nazi sympathisers.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/may/09/highereducation.humanities

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-boss-planned-nazi-scotland-fh5l5d2lcwh

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No fines for Starmer on 12:18 - Jul 9 with 556 viewsDarth_Koont

No fines for Starmer on 12:14 - Jul 9 by GlasgowBlue

At least they have moved on from being Nazi sympathisers.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/may/09/highereducation.humanities

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-boss-planned-nazi-scotland-fh5l5d2lcwh


Edited.

It was fair comment but a little too harsh.
[Post edited 9 Jul 2022 13:01]

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No fines for Starmer on 12:20 - Jul 9 with 554 viewsGlasgowBlue

No fines for Starmer on 12:18 - Jul 9 by Darth_Koont

Edited.

It was fair comment but a little too harsh.
[Post edited 9 Jul 2022 13:01]


You may wish to edit that Koonters.

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