| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? 13:32 - Sep 26 with 3867 views | BlueBadger |
Thank goodness we're not stupid enough in this country to allow a far-right loon spouting homophobia, racism and anti EU rhetoric get in.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63029909
[Post edited 26 Sep 2022 13:34]
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| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 09:14 - Sep 27 with 800 views | bluelagos |
| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 09:08 - Sep 27 by Keno |
although, as my daughters Italian boyfriend tells me, Mussolini started of as communist |
Did he jump from far left to far right in one go, or use an Italian version of the Lib dems as a stepping stone? |  |
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| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 09:21 - Sep 27 with 767 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
Is the new PM’s name Paulo Di Canio? |  | | |
| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 09:22 - Sep 27 with 765 views | Keno |
| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 09:14 - Sep 27 by bluelagos |
Did he jump from far left to far right in one go, or use an Italian version of the Lib dems as a stepping stone? |
I think he inverted the horseshoe |  |
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| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 09:27 - Sep 27 with 745 views | Radlett_blue |
| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 09:04 - Sep 27 by HARRY10 |
As said, it is pretty much a FPTP system in both houses, so it matters little if the majority is 80, or 8.
If the government wants to reintrduce capital punishment, it does not mean that as there are more opposition MPs due to PR that it will be modified to hanging only on certain days, or for people over a certain age etc. It si Capital puniahment, or not.
And I have yet to meet anyone in favour of PR that has anything but some vague idea that it would be better - and certainly no ifdea that it would mean their MP was imposed on them AFTER they have cast their vote. How is that more democratic ?
Yes, the 1930s UK government (coalition) worked because, as with the war each party was 'around the table' on an equal basis.
That is not what is being proposed with PR.
And as said, the danger with peddling the PR guff is that it is being portrayed as some magic bullet that will resolve the question of having a disproportionate number of MPs in the commons. Whereas that is NOT really tge problem, it goes much deeper than that. |
Good points on PR, Harry. It is sometimes proposed as a solution to our problems but it often leads to extremist parties wielding influence grossly disproportionate to their electoral support. Italy is the poster child, with governments changed more regularly than Watford FC change managers. |  |
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| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 09:33 - Sep 27 with 722 views | ElderGrizzly |
| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 09:14 - Sep 27 by bluelagos |
Did he jump from far left to far right in one go, or use an Italian version of the Lib dems as a stepping stone? |
Truss very quick to congratulate Meloni.
Of course Macron is still "we'll see"
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| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 09:37 - Sep 27 with 706 views | Darth_Koont |
| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 09:27 - Sep 27 by Radlett_blue |
Good points on PR, Harry. It is sometimes proposed as a solution to our problems but it often leads to extremist parties wielding influence grossly disproportionate to their electoral support. Italy is the poster child, with governments changed more regularly than Watford FC change managers. |
Italy is an outlier in Western Europe. The vast majority of our neighbours have political stability with PR and a stronger democratic basis.
But, given the craziness, corruption, self-interest and overall democratic deficit of our current politics in the FPTP system, if you think the UK’s version of PR may go as nutty as Italy then I can certainly buy that. |  |
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| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 09:42 - Sep 27 with 707 views | NthQldITFC |
| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 09:04 - Sep 27 by HARRY10 |
As said, it is pretty much a FPTP system in both houses, so it matters little if the majority is 80, or 8.
If the government wants to reintrduce capital punishment, it does not mean that as there are more opposition MPs due to PR that it will be modified to hanging only on certain days, or for people over a certain age etc. It si Capital puniahment, or not.
And I have yet to meet anyone in favour of PR that has anything but some vague idea that it would be better - and certainly no ifdea that it would mean their MP was imposed on them AFTER they have cast their vote. How is that more democratic ?
Yes, the 1930s UK government (coalition) worked because, as with the war each party was 'around the table' on an equal basis.
That is not what is being proposed with PR.
And as said, the danger with peddling the PR guff is that it is being portrayed as some magic bullet that will resolve the question of having a disproportionate number of MPs in the commons. Whereas that is NOT really tge problem, it goes much deeper than that. |
I'm one of your 'vague idea' people I think, not being familiar with the ins and outs of the various PR forms, but my gut feel is that if you have a distribution of people in Parliament which better represent the priorities of the electorate, you have a better basis for democracy.
With some form of dual representation for local and national issues, and with less whipping and more voting on conscience (and perhaps with some technology-enabled input from polls of the public?), is there not a form of PR which would, for example, apply much more priority to issues like the environment, which to many of us are the first and most important existential consideration in most issues?
A large and growing number of people, particularly the young, realise that environment has to come first, and yet the Green Party (such as it is) has only one member in the Commons and two in the Lords.
I think that perhaps there is too much inertia in political thinking, and that we desperately need change in environmental and social policy right now, and the current system doesn't seem likely to provide it. Perhaps it's time to roll the dice.
But I do realise that this is very vague. |  |
| # WE ARE STEALING THE FUTURE FROM OUR CHILDREN --- WE MUST CHANGE COURSE # | | Poll: | It's driving me nuts |
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| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 09:57 - Sep 27 with 681 views | lowhouseblue |
| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 09:10 - Sep 27 by ElderGrizzly |
Berlusconi (who will prop up Meloni) and Murdoch's money are already at work
The perfect take down of course too. |
so as a nazi / fascist i guess she's going to outlaw competitive elections, remove parliamentary control of the executive, establish a legal dictatorship, abolish local autonomy, outlaw other political parties and establish a one party state, abolish independent trade unions, establish an armed militia, and end the free press? if not, is it a very accurate description of her? if i was an historian i would of course get sweary and abusive at this point. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:05 - Sep 27 with 631 views | GeoffSentence |
| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 09:57 - Sep 27 by lowhouseblue |
so as a nazi / fascist i guess she's going to outlaw competitive elections, remove parliamentary control of the executive, establish a legal dictatorship, abolish local autonomy, outlaw other political parties and establish a one party state, abolish independent trade unions, establish an armed militia, and end the free press? if not, is it a very accurate description of her? if i was an historian i would of course get sweary and abusive at this point. |
That's a worrying post, because our own government seems to be doing most of that in increments. It might take time, but if given time they will get there in the end. |  |
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| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:11 - Sep 27 with 601 views | lowhouseblue |
| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:05 - Sep 27 by GeoffSentence |
That's a worrying post, because our own government seems to be doing most of that in increments. It might take time, but if given time they will get there in the end. |
that's a bit silly to be honest. and it also misrepresents the brutal reality of fascism as it was experienced in the middle of the 20th century. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:16 - Sep 27 with 581 views | Keno |
| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 09:57 - Sep 27 by lowhouseblue |
so as a nazi / fascist i guess she's going to outlaw competitive elections, remove parliamentary control of the executive, establish a legal dictatorship, abolish local autonomy, outlaw other political parties and establish a one party state, abolish independent trade unions, establish an armed militia, and end the free press? if not, is it a very accurate description of her? if i was an historian i would of course get sweary and abusive at this point. |
have you ever stood a watch the tide coming in?
historically facism is very similar. it starts creeping in when rather than trying to solve problems, people just blame someone else and then the majority shrugs their shoulders and say "but they arent facists'
The blame moves to 'taking action' against those whose fault its perceived to be, and the majority shrugs their shoulders and say "but they arent facists'
The blame moves onto the restriction of rights for groups of people and 'removal' of opposition and the majority shrugs their shoulders and say "but they arent facists'
and so it goes on until the tide engulfs the majority
Remember most cancers start small and grow. Facism is a cancer. [Post edited 27 Sep 2022 10:26]
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| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:21 - Sep 27 with 553 views | ElderGrizzly |
| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 09:57 - Sep 27 by lowhouseblue |
so as a nazi / fascist i guess she's going to outlaw competitive elections, remove parliamentary control of the executive, establish a legal dictatorship, abolish local autonomy, outlaw other political parties and establish a one party state, abolish independent trade unions, establish an armed militia, and end the free press? if not, is it a very accurate description of her? if i was an historian i would of course get sweary and abusive at this point. |
The historian on Italian history, who I assume is more knowledgeable than you on this, is saying Piers is wrong.
He is agreeing this is fascism, however you want to wrap it. | | | |
| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:24 - Sep 27 with 539 views | HARRY10 |
| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 09:42 - Sep 27 by NthQldITFC |
I'm one of your 'vague idea' people I think, not being familiar with the ins and outs of the various PR forms, but my gut feel is that if you have a distribution of people in Parliament which better represent the priorities of the electorate, you have a better basis for democracy.
With some form of dual representation for local and national issues, and with less whipping and more voting on conscience (and perhaps with some technology-enabled input from polls of the public?), is there not a form of PR which would, for example, apply much more priority to issues like the environment, which to many of us are the first and most important existential consideration in most issues?
A large and growing number of people, particularly the young, realise that environment has to come first, and yet the Green Party (such as it is) has only one member in the Commons and two in the Lords.
I think that perhaps there is too much inertia in political thinking, and that we desperately need change in environmental and social policy right now, and the current system doesn't seem likely to provide it. Perhaps it's time to roll the dice.
But I do realise that this is very vague. |
not so much vague as misinformed, as you have ignored the basic tenet of politics. Decisions are binary - yes or no, so unless PR produces the change in overall numbers it fails, and gives voters the thought of being cheated. So whatever concerns they have about the environment, energy etc - they are meaningless. Or do you not understand how Parliament works ?
How can having an unknown MP imposed on your constituency be more democratic than what happens now. It could also mean that although the party you voted for gets the highest amount of votes, you have an opposition MP imposed on you.
How is it more democratic to have the decision about who governs not decifded by the electorate but by a half a dozen or so in some private room. Look at what happened in 2010.
As said, we are in Brexit territory here where something is being held up as a 'good thing' and discussion, in fact any basic understanding of the implications are being ignored/denied.
The idea that come the election, you do not canvas for an MP but a party, you vote and agree that the party you strongly oppose maybe put in power by your vote, without you having a say is rather disturbing to say the least.
A new slogan - Vote Libdem, and get whoever a few blokes decide.
Democracy ? | | | |
| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:28 - Sep 27 with 529 views | lowhouseblue |
| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:16 - Sep 27 by Keno |
have you ever stood a watch the tide coming in?
historically facism is very similar. it starts creeping in when rather than trying to solve problems, people just blame someone else and then the majority shrugs their shoulders and say "but they arent facists'
The blame moves to 'taking action' against those whose fault its perceived to be, and the majority shrugs their shoulders and say "but they arent facists'
The blame moves onto the restriction of rights for groups of people and 'removal' of opposition and the majority shrugs their shoulders and say "but they arent facists'
and so it goes on until the tide engulfs the majority
Remember most cancers start small and grow. Facism is a cancer. [Post edited 27 Sep 2022 10:26]
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i see, this is a sort of minority report approach to politics. it's what they might do in the future that defines a fascist. the fact that she might do things like musolini did makes her indistinguishable from musolini even though as yet she has done, or proposed, none of those things. a definition based on 'potential' rather than evidence does make it all in the eye of the believer and rather beyond rational critique.
perhaps the majority shrug their shoulders because no evidence has been offered and they know the story about the boy crying wolf? [Post edited 27 Sep 2022 10:28]
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:29 - Sep 27 with 518 views | Radlett_blue |
| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 09:42 - Sep 27 by NthQldITFC |
I'm one of your 'vague idea' people I think, not being familiar with the ins and outs of the various PR forms, but my gut feel is that if you have a distribution of people in Parliament which better represent the priorities of the electorate, you have a better basis for democracy.
With some form of dual representation for local and national issues, and with less whipping and more voting on conscience (and perhaps with some technology-enabled input from polls of the public?), is there not a form of PR which would, for example, apply much more priority to issues like the environment, which to many of us are the first and most important existential consideration in most issues?
A large and growing number of people, particularly the young, realise that environment has to come first, and yet the Green Party (such as it is) has only one member in the Commons and two in the Lords.
I think that perhaps there is too much inertia in political thinking, and that we desperately need change in environmental and social policy right now, and the current system doesn't seem likely to provide it. Perhaps it's time to roll the dice.
But I do realise that this is very vague. |
The environment cannot be seen as a separate issue as it also has serious economic implications. | |
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| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:31 - Sep 27 with 512 views | BlueBadger |
| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 09:57 - Sep 27 by lowhouseblue |
so as a nazi / fascist i guess she's going to outlaw competitive elections, remove parliamentary control of the executive, establish a legal dictatorship, abolish local autonomy, outlaw other political parties and establish a one party state, abolish independent trade unions, establish an armed militia, and end the free press? if not, is it a very accurate description of her? if i was an historian i would of course get sweary and abusive at this point. |
You can probably seek help for that Stockholm Syndrome, you know. | |
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| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:31 - Sep 27 with 512 views | lowhouseblue |
| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:21 - Sep 27 by ElderGrizzly |
The historian on Italian history, who I assume is more knowledgeable than you on this, is saying Piers is wrong.
He is agreeing this is fascism, however you want to wrap it. |
i read his post. did you read mine? do you think fascism is defined by the things i listed? has the new italian pm done or promised any of those things? | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:32 - Sep 27 with 504 views | Darth_Koont |
| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:24 - Sep 27 by HARRY10 |
not so much vague as misinformed, as you have ignored the basic tenet of politics. Decisions are binary - yes or no, so unless PR produces the change in overall numbers it fails, and gives voters the thought of being cheated. So whatever concerns they have about the environment, energy etc - they are meaningless. Or do you not understand how Parliament works ?
How can having an unknown MP imposed on your constituency be more democratic than what happens now. It could also mean that although the party you voted for gets the highest amount of votes, you have an opposition MP imposed on you.
How is it more democratic to have the decision about who governs not decifded by the electorate but by a half a dozen or so in some private room. Look at what happened in 2010.
As said, we are in Brexit territory here where something is being held up as a 'good thing' and discussion, in fact any basic understanding of the implications are being ignored/denied.
The idea that come the election, you do not canvas for an MP but a party, you vote and agree that the party you strongly oppose maybe put in power by your vote, without you having a say is rather disturbing to say the least.
A new slogan - Vote Libdem, and get whoever a few blokes decide.
Democracy ? |
That’s a misrepresentation of how PR would be implemented in the UK. The Scottish parliament system elects constituent MSPs and then the regional list ensures the proportional representation demands are met. [Post edited 27 Sep 2022 10:32]
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| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:33 - Sep 27 with 489 views | XYZ |
| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 09:57 - Sep 27 by lowhouseblue |
so as a nazi / fascist i guess she's going to outlaw competitive elections, remove parliamentary control of the executive, establish a legal dictatorship, abolish local autonomy, outlaw other political parties and establish a one party state, abolish independent trade unions, establish an armed militia, and end the free press? if not, is it a very accurate description of her? if i was an historian i would of course get sweary and abusive at this point. |
Strange hill ...
That's not how they work (as Keno has pointed out). But you know that ... | | | |
| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:34 - Sep 27 with 482 views | HARRY10 |
| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:29 - Sep 27 by Radlett_blue |
The environment cannot be seen as a separate issue as it also has serious economic implications. |
It was an example.
If the Tries had 50 seats less (more opposition how on earth could they stop the government from carrying out what they saw as anti environmental acts.
Something is either enacted as policy, or brought in as law. The first is a given for the government, and the second requires a majority of one. Where does PR come in there ? | | | |
| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:37 - Sep 27 with 460 views | Radlett_blue |
| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 09:37 - Sep 27 by Darth_Koont |
Italy is an outlier in Western Europe. The vast majority of our neighbours have political stability with PR and a stronger democratic basis.
But, given the craziness, corruption, self-interest and overall democratic deficit of our current politics in the FPTP system, if you think the UK’s version of PR may go as nutty as Italy then I can certainly buy that. |
There are different PR systems & I don't dispute that most of them (not the idiotic "alternative vote" which the LibDems championed) are fairer than FPTP.
What stands out in Britain is the bloated size of our political institutions. 650 MPs is beyond absurd, plus an eye-watering 755 members of the quaintly named Lords. This is despite us having a hugely expensive Scottish parliament plus elected assemblies in Wales & N.Ireland. | |
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| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:37 - Sep 27 with 460 views | Keno |
| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:28 - Sep 27 by lowhouseblue |
i see, this is a sort of minority report approach to politics. it's what they might do in the future that defines a fascist. the fact that she might do things like musolini did makes her indistinguishable from musolini even though as yet she has done, or proposed, none of those things. a definition based on 'potential' rather than evidence does make it all in the eye of the believer and rather beyond rational critique.
perhaps the majority shrug their shoulders because no evidence has been offered and they know the story about the boy crying wolf? [Post edited 27 Sep 2022 10:28]
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Evidence? Look at her history
-a member of the Youth Front of the Italian Social Movement
-She praised Italian dictator Benito Mussolini as "a good politician, the best in the last 50 years"
-In May 2020, she praised Giorgio Almirante, the co-founder of the Italian Social Movement (MSI), who was a Nazi collaborator and editor-in-chief of the antisemitic and racist magazine La Difesa della Razza
The boy crying wolf or a Wolf in sheeps clothing?
and the majority still say 'but they arent facists' [Post edited 27 Sep 2022 10:37]
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| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:39 - Sep 27 with 445 views | lowhouseblue |
| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:33 - Sep 27 by XYZ |
Strange hill ...
That's not how they work (as Keno has pointed out). But you know that ... |
the hill is knowing what words mean and using them correctly. if everyone to the right of theresa may is a fascist then political debate is devalued into pointless name calling. if the italian pm starts dismantling the fundamentals of liberal democracy i'll call her a fascist. the meaning of words matters. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:43 - Sep 27 with 427 views | Keno |
| So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:39 - Sep 27 by lowhouseblue |
the hill is knowing what words mean and using them correctly. if everyone to the right of theresa may is a fascist then political debate is devalued into pointless name calling. if the italian pm starts dismantling the fundamentals of liberal democracy i'll call her a fascist. the meaning of words matters. |
"if the italian pm starts dismantling the fundamentals of liberal democracy i'll call her a fascist"
You mean like burning the reichstag? It will be too late by then.
if you have symptoms of cancer do you ignore on the grounds 'it isnt cancer until its cancer' and wait for it to kill you or do you try to stop it?? | |
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