Forum | So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? by BlueBadger

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So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? 13:32 - Sep 26 with 3866 views

Thank goodness we're not stupid enough in this country to allow a far-right loon spouting homophobia, racism and anti EU rhetoric get in.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63029909

[Post edited 26 Sep 2022 13:34]

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So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:48 - Sep 27 with 784 views

lowhouseblue

So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:43 - Sep 27 by Keno
"if the italian pm starts dismantling the fundamentals of liberal democracy i'll call her a fascist" You mean like burning the reichstag? It will be too late by then. if you have symptoms of cancer do you ignore on the grounds 'it isnt cancer until its cancer' and wait for it to kill you or do you try to stop it??

no, absolutely oppose her now as a right wing populist. but don't make up stuff she hasn't done yet.

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:52 - Sep 27 with 752 views

HARRY10

So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:37 - Sep 27 by Radlett_blue

There are different PR systems & I don't dispute that most of them (not the idiotic "alternative vote" which the LibDems championed) are fairer than FPTP.
What stands out in Britain is the bloated size of our political institutions. 650 MPs is beyond absurd, plus an eye-watering 755 members of the quaintly named Lords. This is despite us having a hugely expensive Scottish parliament plus elected assemblies in Wales & N.Ireland.

2are fairer than FPTP"

And therein lies the problem. As the assumption is that with a 'fairer' distribution of seats comes a fairer decision making system. It doesn't. A party only needs that one extra vote. Nothing changes.

And along with the huge reduction in democracy, local accountability comes a greater centralising of power. However good an MP has been there is every liklyhood that he/she will not be allocated to you after the next election. In fact if he/she is seen as a memeber of the awkward squad, independence of thought and fights for his/her constituency they are likly to find themselves shoved down to number 400 on the list.

Yes, make the Lords smaller and have it as an elected chamber via PR

If a PM is elected have elected MPs decide, NOT party members - where those who are unable to vote in the UK election are able to vote irrespective of being non UK, and under the age of suffrage - 15 in the Tory case.

Stop MPs having a second income

Introduce electronic voting in the chamber

Ensure there is a Speaker with the power to order corrections to lies, inadvertent or not. A very bizarre situation when someone who obviously lies in Parliament is OK, but the person who calls him/her a liar is suspended.

So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:54 - Sep 27 with 745 views

XYZ

So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:39 - Sep 27 by lowhouseblue
the hill is knowing what words mean and using them correctly. if everyone to the right of theresa may is a fascist then political debate is devalued into pointless name calling. if the italian pm starts dismantling the fundamentals of liberal democracy i'll call her a fascist. the meaning of words matters.

" ...if everyone to the right of theresa may is a fascist ..."

Strange characterisation of the argument that literally no-one has suggested - why would you want to do that?

" ...knowing what words mean and using them correctly ..." - as I said, you know what you're doing.

So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:56 - Sep 27 with 729 views

Keno

So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:48 - Sep 27 by lowhouseblue
no, absolutely oppose her now as a right wing populist. but don't make up stuff she hasn't done yet.

you ignored the things she has done

Look at her history

-a member of the Youth Front of the Italian Social Movement
-She praised Italian dictator Benito Mussolini as "a good politician, the best in the last 50 years"
-In May 2020, she praised Giorgio Almirante, the co-founder of the Italian Social Movement (MSI), who was a Nazi collaborator and editor-in-chief of the antisemitic and racist magazine La Difesa della Razza

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So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:56 - Sep 27 with 728 views

lowhouseblue

So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:54 - Sep 27 by XYZ
" ...if everyone to the right of theresa may is a fascist ..." Strange characterisation of the argument that literally no-one has suggested - why would you want to do that? " ...knowing what words mean and using them correctly ..." - as I said, you know what you're doing.

oh come on now, you read this site you know full well the range of people who've been called a fascist at one time or another. i've previously had exactly this discussion about the meaning of the word in the context of boris.

-1

So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:57 - Sep 27 with 722 views

XYZ

So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:52 - Sep 27 by HARRY10

So, what's your argument against the scottish version of PR?

So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 11:03 - Sep 27 with 688 views

XYZ

So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:56 - Sep 27 by lowhouseblue
oh come on now, you read this site you know full well the range of people who've been called a fascist at one time or another. i've previously had exactly this discussion about the meaning of the word in the context of boris.

I'm just judging you on your words, as requested.

"Everyone to the right of Teresa May is a fascist ...".

Have you read Keno's posts? Just to the right of Teresa May you reckon?

So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 11:16 - Sep 27 with 658 views

leitrimblue

So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 09:57 - Sep 27 by lowhouseblue

so as a nazi / fascist i guess she's going to outlaw competitive elections, remove parliamentary control of the executive, establish a legal dictatorship, abolish local autonomy, outlaw other political parties and establish a one party state, abolish independent trade unions, establish an armed militia, and end the free press? if not, is it a very accurate description of her? if i was an historian i would of course get sweary and abusive at this point.

Morning Lowhouse, I'm just wondering are you suggesting that unless you meet the criteria for fascism that you've outlined then you can not be called a fascist? So no matter what other similarities you may have had with past fascists and no matter what other acts you carry out that may seem similar to fascism unless you meet and until you meet your outlined criteria you can not be called a fascist?

So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 11:20 - Sep 27 with 653 views

XYZ

So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 11:16 - Sep 27 by leitrimblue

lowercaseblue decends the steps of the aircraft and waves a piece of paper ...

So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 11:21 - Sep 27 with 651 views

eireblue

So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:39 - Sep 27 by lowhouseblue
the hill is knowing what words mean and using them correctly. if everyone to the right of theresa may is a fascist then political debate is devalued into pointless name calling. if the italian pm starts dismantling the fundamentals of liberal democracy i'll call her a fascist. the meaning of words matters.

So if the meaning of words matter.

Why did you list out a set of things that happened, as identifying fascist type things, rather than the words fascists use to describe the things that they want to do?

A characteristic of a Fascist leader would be, arbitrarily doing what they want with no democratic mandate. E.g. getting elected on a pacifist policy, then deciding to do some fighting.

I have a funny feeling, that your actual modern day fascist, that tries to get elected nowadays, won’t say things like, policy number 1, do some fascism.

I think what they may do, is use words, in ways to convey something.
E.g. they won’t say, Muslims/Jews/Protestants/LGBTQ are bad, let’s make life difficult.
What they may do is talk about things and suggest policies to address the concerns of natural patriotic Good Catholic Families.

Well that’s what I would do if I was Fascist, but maybe, you are right, Facsists have such respect for the importance of words and truth and honesty, they will all be very obvious, and we can all stop thinking.

So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 11:41 - Sep 27 with 617 views

lowhouseblue

So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 11:16 - Sep 27 by leitrimblue

labelling all right wing populists as fascists is a misuse of language. and yes to compare a current politician to the mid 20th century dictators you have to have some evidence of them doing something similar. 'well it's just the sort of thing someone like them would do' isn't enough.

So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 11:44 - Sep 27 with 611 views

Keno

So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 11:41 - Sep 27 by lowhouseblue
labelling all right wing populists as fascists is a misuse of language. and yes to compare a current politician to the mid 20th century dictators you have to have some evidence of them doing something similar. 'well it's just the sort of thing someone like them would do' isn't enough.

But what about if a right wing Populist politician has previously been amember of the Youth Front of the Italian Social Movement?

Or praised Italian dictator Benito Mussolini as "a good politician, the best in the last 50 years"

or praised Giorgio Almirante, the co-founder of the Italian Social Movement (MSI), who was a Nazi collaborator and editor-in-chief of the antisemitic and racist magazine La Difesa della Razza

would that suggest they they may be a little more right wing than a right wing populist?

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So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 11:55 - Sep 27 with 591 views

XYZ

So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 11:44 - Sep 27 by Keno

Then she's just like Teresa May, apparently.

So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 11:57 - Sep 27 with 585 views

lowhouseblue

So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 11:44 - Sep 27 by Keno

i don't the know context for any of that. she seems an unpleasant person, but fascism has to be about the policies you promote or implement. it can't be guilt by association. she is a right wing populist and should be rejected as such. but i see nothing to suggest she intends to overthrow liberal democracy, abolish elections, move to a one party state, or introduce an armed militia. fascism is more than right wing populism.

So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 12:13 - Sep 27 with 553 views

Keno

So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 11:57 - Sep 27 by lowhouseblue

"i don't the know context for any of that"

you havent done any research on the person you are defending or even bothered to read the previous 2 times these facts were posted

That is the very definition of "the majority just shrugged and said but they arent facists" and why there is a real danger that we could end up sleep walking back to into facism.

at least be aware of peoples history before you defend them or you will end like just like Canute, trying to hold back the tide and realising too late that it will engulf you

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So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 12:16 - Sep 27 with 536 views

lowhouseblue

So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 12:13 - Sep 27 by Keno

jeez i'm not defending her. i just think we should know the meaning of words. it's insulting to people who suffered under fascist regimes to suggest that what we see in italy now is the same.

[Post edited 27 Sep 2022 12:19]

So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 12:22 - Sep 27 with 518 views

BlueNomad

So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:56 - Sep 27 by lowhouseblue
oh come on now, you read this site you know full well the range of people who've been called a fascist at one time or another. i've previously had exactly this discussion about the meaning of the word in the context of boris.

She is far closer to fascism than most heads of government have been in Europe since 1945..............................

So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 12:27 - Sep 27 with 500 views

Keno

So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 12:16 - Sep 27 by lowhouseblue
jeez i'm not defending her. i just think we should know the meaning of words. it's insulting to people who suffered under fascist regimes to suggest that what we see in italy now is the same. [Post edited 27 Sep 2022 12:19]

"it's insulting to people who suffered under fascist regimes

perhaps you might want to think a little more about that statement!!!

I had family who lived through 5 years of Nazi occupation, and one family member who didnt survive because of her opposition to that regime.

I find it highly insulting that people fail to acknowledge that there is a real danger of that being repeated and that despite the facts simply shrug their shoulders saying 'but they arent facists"

I'm sorry if you cant see the danger in that and please dont make statement like this "it's insulting to people who suffered under fascist regimes" again

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So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 12:34 - Sep 27 with 480 views

Clapham_Junction

So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:52 - Sep 27 by HARRY10

"However good an MP has been there is every liklyhood that he/she will not be allocated to you after the next election. In fact if he/she is seen as a memeber of the awkward squad, independence of thought and fights for his/her constituency they are likly to find themselves shoved down to number 400 on the list"

This is no different to the current nomination system, which both major parties have used to deselect candidates not in line with the leadership and impose their preferred ones.

You are also presumably unaware of open list proportional representation, in which voters vote for both the party and candidates and the party has no say in where candidates are placed on the list.

So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 12:35 - Sep 27 with 479 views

lowhouseblue

So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 12:27 - Sep 27 by Keno

well i'm sorry but it is. there is no sensible comparison, and pretending that a change of government in a liberal democracy is the same as living under the fascist regimes we have previously seen is plain silly. there is always a danger of things developing into something different but unless you have a crystal ball we should judge politicians by what they actually do.

So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 12:36 - Sep 27 with 477 views

bungaytractor

Bit of a looker though

So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 13:21 - Sep 27 with 423 views

NthQldITFC

So, have we done the fact that Italy have elected a nazi as their next PM? on 10:24 - Sep 27 by HARRY10

not so much vague as misinformed, as you have ignored the basic tenet of politics. Decisions are binary - yes or no, so unless PR produces the change in overall numbers it fails, and gives voters the thought of being cheated. So whatever concerns they have about the environment, energy etc - they are meaningless. Or do you not understand how Parliament works ?

How can having an unknown MP imposed on your constituency be more democratic than what happens now. It could also mean that although the party you voted for gets the highest amount of votes, you have an opposition MP imposed on you.

How is it more democratic to have the decision about who governs not decifded by the electorate but by a half a dozen or so in some private room. Look at what happened in 2010.

As said, we are in Brexit territory here where something is being held up as a 'good thing' and discussion, in fact any basic understanding of the implications are being ignored/denied.

The idea that come the election, you do not canvas for an MP but a party, you vote and agree that the party you strongly oppose maybe put in power by your vote, without you having a say is rather disturbing to say the least.

A new slogan - Vote Libdem, and get whoever a few blokes decide.

Democracy ?

Re your first paragraph: The continuum of the scope and wording of a motion which is put to a binary vote will surely be affected to some degree by the mover's perception of the likelihood of it passing, aye or nay. So if you have more 'Green' members for example, motions will have a tendency to be tailored in a more green fashion, will they not, particularly as I have said if there is less whipping and the proportionally representative members can vote to their conscience.

Re your second paragraph: What proportion of people who vote do you reckon do so on the basis of the local candidates, as opposed to the party and the party leader? There are surely more open-minded and progressive ways to provide local representation than being stuck with a single, predetermined, local candidate of the 'winning' party.

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