| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate 09:26 - Feb 15 with 20108 views | tractordownsouth |
Big choice for momentum now if he contests the election as an independent. Their MPs are mostly from the newer intakes and they won’t want to give up their jobs to campaign for Corbyn against a Labour candidate, but having alienated the moderate factions they need his base on board. [Post edited 15 Feb 2023 9:28]
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 10:21 - Feb 21 with 1469 views | DJR |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 22:35 - Feb 20 by positivity |
interesting post, thanks.
i think the reaction to the nationalization of rail franchises is going to be interesting and indicative of which direction starmer will take.
there is some natural caution about being seen as too foot-y and giving an open goal to their opponents in the press. however, the public can see the complete mess on the railways, and it's difficult for proponents of privatization to make any kind of compelling case against it. it's going to be important for these nationalised franchises to be shown to be good value and a success, then more will follow.
a friend of mine is a city councillor on the left of the party and she's very positive about starmer both personally, and thinking that he'll be able to achieve more than a corbyn-type as the public will give him more slack due to his credible and competent past. she does think that they will be cautious about loading on too much debt though, so changes won't be as quick as we'd all like, but i guess that's no surprise given the circumstances |
Interestingly, I remember John McDonnell also talking highly of Keir Starmer when interviewed a few months ago. |  | | |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 10:30 - Feb 21 with 1438 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 09:59 - Feb 21 by DJR |
I think this is proof that he is not an antisemite, but it never got any coverage. The video is particularly worth watching, where he rather emotionally mentions his mother's involvement in the Battle of Cable Street.
https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/corbyn-speaks-of-mothers-role-in-battle-cable-stree
Here is further evidence.
https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/fifty-times-jeremy-corbyn-stood-
It mustn't be forgotten that Corbyn had the support of many prominent Jewish people, such as Alexi Sayle, Michael Rosen, Myriam Margoyles and Geoffrey Bindman KC, but such people never got any coverage in the media. And it is certainly worth reading in full the following post from Michael Rosen, which contains the following quote.
"I've known Jeremy Corbyn for 30 years. He is no antisemite. He has put his neck on the line hundreds of times in opposing racism, antisemitism, far right fascism, holocaust denial."
https://www.facebook.com/michael.rosen.5496/posts/10157626523532225
Interestingly, Geoffrey Bindman, a prominent human rights lawyer, has grave concerns about the ECHR report, but I won't go into that here. [Post edited 21 Feb 2023 10:23]
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Christ! We have the "Corbyn's mother was at Cable Street" defence now.
Coincidentally, the mother of well known anti semite, anti vax conspiracy theorist, Piers Corbyn was also at Cable Street. |  |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 10:37 - Feb 21 with 1435 views | DJR |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 10:30 - Feb 21 by GlasgowBlue |
Christ! We have the "Corbyn's mother was at Cable Street" defence now.
Coincidentally, the mother of well known anti semite, anti vax conspiracy theorist, Piers Corbyn was also at Cable Street. |
I'm clearly not going to win you over, but it seems to me that the views of prominent (and many other) Jews on Corbyn deserve serious consideration.
Anyway, your reference to Piers Corbyn is classic whataboutery. [Post edited 21 Feb 2023 10:43]
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 10:41 - Feb 21 with 1420 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 10:37 - Feb 21 by DJR |
I'm clearly not going to win you over, but it seems to me that the views of prominent (and many other) Jews on Corbyn deserve serious consideration.
Anyway, your reference to Piers Corbyn is classic whataboutery. [Post edited 21 Feb 2023 10:43]
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A few left wings Jews. See also "Blacks for Trump".
It's hardly whatabouterry to point out that using Jeremy's mother being at Cable Street as a defence for him not being an anti semite, falls apart when you consider what a vile anti semitic, anti vax conspiracy his brother is. They do share the same mother.
I'll leave it there. It's been done to death. | |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 10:43 - Feb 21 with 1422 views | DJR |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 10:41 - Feb 21 by GlasgowBlue |
A few left wings Jews. See also "Blacks for Trump".
It's hardly whatabouterry to point out that using Jeremy's mother being at Cable Street as a defence for him not being an anti semite, falls apart when you consider what a vile anti semitic, anti vax conspiracy his brother is. They do share the same mother.
I'll leave it there. It's been done to death. |
Absolutely, although criticising black people for voting for Trump, or someone like Suella Braverman for being anti-migrant, is regarded itself as being rather racist. [Post edited 21 Feb 2023 10:48]
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 10:51 - Feb 21 with 1399 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 10:43 - Feb 21 by DJR |
Absolutely, although criticising black people for voting for Trump, or someone like Suella Braverman for being anti-migrant, is regarded itself as being rather racist. [Post edited 21 Feb 2023 10:48]
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I'm not criticising black people voting for Trump. America is a democratic country where people are free to vote for whoever they want.
Merely pointing out that having a group called "Blacks for Trump" and a small section of right wing African Americans supporting Trump, does not make Trump any less of a racist. | |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 10:55 - Feb 21 with 1401 views | DJR |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 10:51 - Feb 21 by GlasgowBlue |
I'm not criticising black people voting for Trump. America is a democratic country where people are free to vote for whoever they want.
Merely pointing out that having a group called "Blacks for Trump" and a small section of right wing African Americans supporting Trump, does not make Trump any less of a racist. |
Are you saying Michael Rosen is an antisemite, or that his views on whether Jeremy Corbyn is an antisemite don't count? [Post edited 21 Feb 2023 11:00]
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 11:06 - Feb 21 with 1352 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 10:55 - Feb 21 by DJR |
Are you saying Michael Rosen is an antisemite, or that his views on whether Jeremy Corbyn is an antisemite don't count? [Post edited 21 Feb 2023 11:00]
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What on earth have I posted that would even suggest I thought Michael Rosen was an anti semite? This is getting silly now. Your last two posts have been absurd in trying to attribute words and views that I haven't put forward.
Michael Rosen isn't an anti semite. Michael Rosen's views, like the views of all people count. In the British Jewish community, Michael Rosen's view that Jeremy Corbyn is nt n anti semite, is a minority view. 85% of British Jews believe that he is.
I really am leaving it there now. If you want a full and frank discussion on this subject may I point you to this thread.
https://www.twtd.co.uk/forum/426157/3902650/oh-jeremy.....#
It will save any need for me to contribute further. [Post edited 21 Feb 2023 11:15]
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 11:14 - Feb 21 with 1314 views | DJR |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 11:06 - Feb 21 by GlasgowBlue |
What on earth have I posted that would even suggest I thought Michael Rosen was an anti semite? This is getting silly now. Your last two posts have been absurd in trying to attribute words and views that I haven't put forward.
Michael Rosen isn't an anti semite. Michael Rosen's views, like the views of all people count. In the British Jewish community, Michael Rosen's view that Jeremy Corbyn is nt n anti semite, is a minority view. 85% of British Jews believe that he is.
I really am leaving it there now. If you want a full and frank discussion on this subject may I point you to this thread.
https://www.twtd.co.uk/forum/426157/3902650/oh-jeremy.....#
It will save any need for me to contribute further. [Post edited 21 Feb 2023 11:15]
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Leaving aside Michael Rosen's questioning of how polls pick up the views of secular Jews (who make up half the population), we're never going to convince each other, but because you mentioned recently that you have Jewish heritage, I have to fully respect and acknowledge your view. Indeed, it must count more than mine because of that heritage, as must Michael Rosen's.
But I do know all the arguments, given that I know both Jenny Manson of JVL and Euan Philipps of Labour Against Antisemitism.
Indeed, because of this, I have followed the matter in greater depth than many, who only get their information through the media. [Post edited 21 Feb 2023 13:29]
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 11:54 - Feb 21 with 1251 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 11:14 - Feb 21 by DJR |
Leaving aside Michael Rosen's questioning of how polls pick up the views of secular Jews (who make up half the population), we're never going to convince each other, but because you mentioned recently that you have Jewish heritage, I have to fully respect and acknowledge your view. Indeed, it must count more than mine because of that heritage, as must Michael Rosen's.
But I do know all the arguments, given that I know both Jenny Manson of JVL and Euan Philipps of Labour Against Antisemitism.
Indeed, because of this, I have followed the matter in greater depth than many, who only get their information through the media. [Post edited 21 Feb 2023 13:29]
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Euan Phillips, eh?
He strikes me as one of the oddest characters in this whole drama. I’m not sure if he’s blindly driven by ideology or whether it’s a seemingly tireless grift. |  |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 11:57 - Feb 21 with 1231 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 08:26 - Feb 21 by Darth_Koont |
I don’t know. Maybe because he shouldn’t have to lower himself to that nor take on the significant time and expense. Perhaps he will one day – I’d like to see it.
But you haven’t answered why Starmer et al haven’t thrown out an “antisemite” from the party. Don’t they have the evidence? Surely not ...
Or are you saying they have the evidence but clearly aren’t serious enough about antisemitism?
You must be frothing by now. |
Hmmm. Seems like you and the other principal clowns still can’t answer this.
I wonder why? | |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 12:26 - Feb 21 with 1171 views | DJR |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 11:54 - Feb 21 by Darth_Koont |
Euan Phillips, eh?
He strikes me as one of the oddest characters in this whole drama. I’m not sure if he’s blindly driven by ideology or whether it’s a seemingly tireless grift. |
Yes, he was a very curious character. I stood down as secretary of the local party in 2016 around the time he joined. He seemed a pretty decent person, but I do remember speaking to him when leafleting in 2017 when he mentioned his opposition to Jeremy Corbyn and that he had been in discussions with others about ways of defeating him.
It looks the venture in question was Labour Against Antisemitism which he had a hand in setting up in March 2017, although he never mentioned antisemitism as an issue on any of the numerous occasions I met him.
He became chairman of the local party in July of that year but resigned in a blaze of publicity the following year in an email to members.
This was the contents of the email that the local party wrote to members in response.
"The recent resignation email sent to members from former chairman of T&M Labour, Euan Philipps was, unfortunately, couched as an attack on the party and leader, Jeremy Corbyn for ‘antisemitism’.
“The Executive Committee was not informed of his intentions in advance and regret that Euan chose to use his resignation in this way.
“We were also unaware, until a few months ago, that Euan is a member of a Twitter group calling itself Labour Against Antisemitism, that has been accused of ‘trolling’ other members.
“We must point out to Twitter users that, after he stepped down, Euan made unauthorised use of the Tonbridge and Malling Twitter platform to pursue his own agenda, unknown to the EC. He has also blogged against the party on Huffpost and the Times of Israel, using his position as Chairman.
“Euan never mentioned his activities to the EC and antisemitism, as an issue, never arose but his email has been repeated on Twitter and sent to various newspapers and online organisations, thereby attempting to undermine the Labour Party in general and Tonbridge and Malling CLP, specifically."
All this happened after my time on the EC so I don't really know all the ins and outs, but the distinct impression I got was that he had become Chair solely with a view to resigning, on the basis that the resignation of a Chair of a local party carried much more weight.
As it was the members of the EC were very decent people, in a local party where Israel was never discussed in all my time as an activist, and where I never heard anyone utter an antisemitic remark, so I do think he acted very dishonourably to the local party, whatever his motivations more widely.
[Post edited 22 Feb 2023 13:05]
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 12:59 - Feb 21 with 1121 views | leitrimblue |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 08:26 - Feb 21 by Darth_Koont |
I don’t know. Maybe because he shouldn’t have to lower himself to that nor take on the significant time and expense. Perhaps he will one day – I’d like to see it.
But you haven’t answered why Starmer et al haven’t thrown out an “antisemite” from the party. Don’t they have the evidence? Surely not ...
Or are you saying they have the evidence but clearly aren’t serious enough about antisemitism?
You must be frothing by now. |
Bit strange that people who are so sure that Corbyn is a antisemite don't wish to discuss Starmer not kicking him out of the party. You would think that even the mere possibility of starmer turning a blind eye to antisemitism would have them up in arms
It's almost as if it wasn't the thought of antisemitism that scared um... |  | | |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 13:04 - Feb 21 with 1101 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 12:26 - Feb 21 by DJR |
Yes, he was a very curious character. I stood down as secretary of the local party in 2016 around the time he joined. He seemed a pretty decent person, but I do remember speaking to him when leafleting in 2017 when he mentioned his opposition to Jeremy Corbyn and that he had been in discussions with others about ways of defeating him.
It looks the venture in question was Labour Against Antisemitism which he had a hand in setting up in March 2017, although he never mentioned antisemitism as an issue on any of the numerous occasions I met him.
He became chairman of the local party in July of that year but resigned in a blaze of publicity the following year in an email to members.
This was the contents of the email that the local party wrote to members in response.
"The recent resignation email sent to members from former chairman of T&M Labour, Euan Philipps was, unfortunately, couched as an attack on the party and leader, Jeremy Corbyn for ‘antisemitism’.
“The Executive Committee was not informed of his intentions in advance and regret that Euan chose to use his resignation in this way.
“We were also unaware, until a few months ago, that Euan is a member of a Twitter group calling itself Labour Against Antisemitism, that has been accused of ‘trolling’ other members.
“We must point out to Twitter users that, after he stepped down, Euan made unauthorised use of the Tonbridge and Malling Twitter platform to pursue his own agenda, unknown to the EC. He has also blogged against the party on Huffpost and the Times of Israel, using his position as Chairman.
“Euan never mentioned his activities to the EC and antisemitism, as an issue, never arose but his email has been repeated on Twitter and sent to various newspapers and online organisations, thereby attempting to undermine the Labour Party in general and Tonbridge and Malling CLP, specifically."
All this happened after my time on the EC so I don't really know all the ins and outs, but the distinct impression I got was that he had become Chair solely with a view to resigning, on the basis that the resignation of a Chair of a local party carried much more weight.
As it was the members of the EC were very decent people, in a local party where Israel was never discussed in all my time as an activist, and where I never heard anyone utter an antisemitic remark, so I do think he acted very dishonourably to the local party, whatever his motivations more widely.
[Post edited 22 Feb 2023 13:05]
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Thanks for that. Seems like he found a niche to be of service to the Labour power brokers and also make a name for himself.
There was a lot of that going around. | |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 13:16 - Feb 21 with 1060 views | giant_stow |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 12:59 - Feb 21 by leitrimblue |
Bit strange that people who are so sure that Corbyn is a antisemite don't wish to discuss Starmer not kicking him out of the party. You would think that even the mere possibility of starmer turning a blind eye to antisemitism would have them up in arms
It's almost as if it wasn't the thought of antisemitism that scared um... |
Not sure if I’m one of the principal clowns or not — probably just below king clown — maybe a prince? Or perhaps a man servant even? Personally, i downvoted Darth there as I found his post to be a little disingenuous tbh. Has anyone been kicked out the party for being an antisemite? Yes they've been kicked out for antisemitic behaviour or words, but trying to prove someone's an actual antisemite would seem pretty tricky and also very harrowing in political terms. I speak as someone who wouldn’t call Corbyn an antisemite btw.
What did happen too, (i think!) is that Corbyn was temporarily kicked out of the party not for antisemitism, but for his reaction to the report, then quickly reinstated by the NEC, so Darth know his question was a ringer. Starmer has done what he can basically, without ripping the party apart.
I think this bit of thread flags that difference between left winger s adherence to principles above all else, even if it means political failure, vs a more pragmatic approach where getting into power and being able to help less well off bods is most important. [Post edited 21 Feb 2023 13:18]
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 13:48 - Feb 21 with 1010 views | Ryorry |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 13:16 - Feb 21 by giant_stow |
Not sure if I’m one of the principal clowns or not — probably just below king clown — maybe a prince? Or perhaps a man servant even? Personally, i downvoted Darth there as I found his post to be a little disingenuous tbh. Has anyone been kicked out the party for being an antisemite? Yes they've been kicked out for antisemitic behaviour or words, but trying to prove someone's an actual antisemite would seem pretty tricky and also very harrowing in political terms. I speak as someone who wouldn’t call Corbyn an antisemite btw.
What did happen too, (i think!) is that Corbyn was temporarily kicked out of the party not for antisemitism, but for his reaction to the report, then quickly reinstated by the NEC, so Darth know his question was a ringer. Starmer has done what he can basically, without ripping the party apart.
I think this bit of thread flags that difference between left winger s adherence to principles above all else, even if it means political failure, vs a more pragmatic approach where getting into power and being able to help less well off bods is most important. [Post edited 21 Feb 2023 13:18]
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Good summary/wrap.
Haven't had the capacity to keep up with the thread for a variety of reasons, but I can't recall anyone on here ever calling Corbyn himself downright antisemitic; just criticising him for not cracking down as hard & as fast as he should have done as leader on anitsemitic behaviour/speech/media content of some within the LP - thereby opening himself up to accusations of being an apologist for antisemitism.
JC's not a bad man imho, but on this issue & some others he's just not been politically astute - wanted to support & please everyone, sometimes just blowing with the wind to gain votes - and ended up falling between stools & looking weak. Would have preferred him as my constituency MP to Julian Smith though! |  |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 13:49 - Feb 21 with 1008 views | leitrimblue |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 13:16 - Feb 21 by giant_stow |
Not sure if I’m one of the principal clowns or not — probably just below king clown — maybe a prince? Or perhaps a man servant even? Personally, i downvoted Darth there as I found his post to be a little disingenuous tbh. Has anyone been kicked out the party for being an antisemite? Yes they've been kicked out for antisemitic behaviour or words, but trying to prove someone's an actual antisemite would seem pretty tricky and also very harrowing in political terms. I speak as someone who wouldn’t call Corbyn an antisemite btw.
What did happen too, (i think!) is that Corbyn was temporarily kicked out of the party not for antisemitism, but for his reaction to the report, then quickly reinstated by the NEC, so Darth know his question was a ringer. Starmer has done what he can basically, without ripping the party apart.
I think this bit of thread flags that difference between left winger s adherence to principles above all else, even if it means political failure, vs a more pragmatic approach where getting into power and being able to help less well off bods is most important. [Post edited 21 Feb 2023 13:18]
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Firstly, I don't see you as a clown of any kind.
I think yer line about 'Starmer has done what he can basically, without ripping the party apart' is the important bit Ull,s. It feels a bit like antisemitism is important but not that important.
Surely if Starmer announced 'that actually we haven't eradicated antisemitism from the party cause that would rip the party apart' this shouldn't be any more acceptable then Corbyns perceived antisemitism?
It seems to me, and I'm gonna say it again( not saying for 1 second that you in this category ) the middle class absolutely sh1te the bed when faced with genuine social change and many of um still haven't got over it | | | |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 14:02 - Feb 21 with 988 views | Blueschev |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 10:51 - Feb 21 by GlasgowBlue |
I'm not criticising black people voting for Trump. America is a democratic country where people are free to vote for whoever they want.
Merely pointing out that having a group called "Blacks for Trump" and a small section of right wing African Americans supporting Trump, does not make Trump any less of a racist. |
I preferred Lesbians for Bush. |  | | |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 14:02 - Feb 21 with 987 views | giant_stow |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 13:48 - Feb 21 by Ryorry |
Good summary/wrap.
Haven't had the capacity to keep up with the thread for a variety of reasons, but I can't recall anyone on here ever calling Corbyn himself downright antisemitic; just criticising him for not cracking down as hard & as fast as he should have done as leader on anitsemitic behaviour/speech/media content of some within the LP - thereby opening himself up to accusations of being an apologist for antisemitism.
JC's not a bad man imho, but on this issue & some others he's just not been politically astute - wanted to support & please everyone, sometimes just blowing with the wind to gain votes - and ended up falling between stools & looking weak. Would have preferred him as my constituency MP to Julian Smith though! |
Re the good man bit, I've come to realise that's true having seen first hand how he backs up a community centre in his constituency (i do their site) and its deeply impressive. He's very good at connecting with locals and supporting local causes. | |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 14:10 - Feb 21 with 967 views | giant_stow |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 13:49 - Feb 21 by leitrimblue |
Firstly, I don't see you as a clown of any kind.
I think yer line about 'Starmer has done what he can basically, without ripping the party apart' is the important bit Ull,s. It feels a bit like antisemitism is important but not that important.
Surely if Starmer announced 'that actually we haven't eradicated antisemitism from the party cause that would rip the party apart' this shouldn't be any more acceptable then Corbyns perceived antisemitism?
It seems to me, and I'm gonna say it again( not saying for 1 second that you in this category ) the middle class absolutely sh1te the bed when faced with genuine social change and many of um still haven't got over it |
Thanks mr and likewise - I think we have slightly different politics, but not massively so!
I do see your point about compromises, but i'm not sure Starmer has actually made any compromises in this: he tried to kick Corbyn out, failed, so took the whip away instead, as about the only thing he could get through.
Re your last line, I would agree that social change can be scary for some in comfy position, but perhaps that's where Starmer's approach could gradually convince such people that their worlds won't fall apart when they have to pay more tax and live in a fairer world? They may even come to see that a healthier more content society would benefit them too. | |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 18:53 - Feb 21 with 807 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 10:41 - Feb 21 by GlasgowBlue |
A few left wings Jews. See also "Blacks for Trump".
It's hardly whatabouterry to point out that using Jeremy's mother being at Cable Street as a defence for him not being an anti semite, falls apart when you consider what a vile anti semitic, anti vax conspiracy his brother is. They do share the same mother.
I'll leave it there. It's been done to death. |
Yup but it's the right wing Jews you really have to watch out for..... |  |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 10:57 - Feb 22 with 667 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 13:16 - Feb 21 by giant_stow |
Not sure if I’m one of the principal clowns or not — probably just below king clown — maybe a prince? Or perhaps a man servant even? Personally, i downvoted Darth there as I found his post to be a little disingenuous tbh. Has anyone been kicked out the party for being an antisemite? Yes they've been kicked out for antisemitic behaviour or words, but trying to prove someone's an actual antisemite would seem pretty tricky and also very harrowing in political terms. I speak as someone who wouldn’t call Corbyn an antisemite btw.
What did happen too, (i think!) is that Corbyn was temporarily kicked out of the party not for antisemitism, but for his reaction to the report, then quickly reinstated by the NEC, so Darth know his question was a ringer. Starmer has done what he can basically, without ripping the party apart.
I think this bit of thread flags that difference between left winger s adherence to principles above all else, even if it means political failure, vs a more pragmatic approach where getting into power and being able to help less well off bods is most important. [Post edited 21 Feb 2023 13:18]
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He was absolutely accused of being an antisemite – still is – and yet where’s the evidence for people to say that?
Sensible, rational people know the evidence for that is lacking. So the standard response that was given throughout this period was the following which Ryorry helpfully confirmed:
“I can’t recall anyone on here ever calling Corbyn himself downright antisemitic; just criticising him for not cracking down as hard & as fast as he should have done as leader on anitsemitic behaviour/speech/media content of some within the LP - thereby opening himself up to accusations of being an apologist for antisemitism.”
Putting aside the idea no-one on here called Corbyn an antisemite (of course people did and do, just like that accusation has been allowed to hang around in the mainstream with minimal pushback), but this accepted narrative that Corbyn didn’t crack down hard enough on antisemitism has been debunked by the facts. Facts that the incredibly shonky Panorama documentary in particular ignored preferring its own disingenuous or even completely false accusations.
Antisemitism complaints aren’t handled by the leader’s office but by Labour HQ which is a largely separate organisation and mostly legacy-staffed from the Blair years. Until the middle of 2018, that organisation and the processes were “overseen” by Iain McNicol a Labour right-winger who allowed this factionalism to take over. Where antisemitism complaints were handled incredibly slowly and even put on the back burner to “hunt Trots” (anyone “left of Gordon Brown” according to these loons). And who didn’t properly implement the recommendations from the Chakrabarti Report that Corbyn himself had commissioned in 2016 to address antisemitism in the party.
That all changed when Corbyn put his own trusted colleague, Jennie Formby, in charge as General Secretary in 2018. Suddenly antisemitism complaints were being handled much more swiftly along with any resulting suspensions/expulsions. From 10 suspensions between November 2016 and February 2018 under McNicol to 29 suspensions in Jennie Formby’s first 3 months!!! These and other improvements were noted by the EHRC report but that was lost in the need to pin everything, including the previous issues, on Corbyn and the left more generally. A classic case of that is that Corbyn was censured by the EHRC for getting involved and trying to speed up the response, so a major criticism was him actually cracking down too hard and fast on antisemitism as it’s meant to be an independent and regulated process outside of the leader or anyone else’s personal responsibility or remit!
I fully understand that it’s not been easy to keep track of this as a casual observer who probably trusts the media to give them a somewhat objective picture. But, on this subject, people need to be a lot better informed about the actual facts as it’s patently obvious that the media are either ducking this so they don’t get in the firing line and accused of antisemitism denial etc. Or they’re taking advantage of that silence to keep pushing a weaponised version that is heavy on accusations that they know won’t be properly scrutinised by anyone else in the mainstream.
Luckily on this forum we can call out those who only have accusations and always ignore the evidence for their own weaponised and party political/factional reasons. And we can use the Internet to find the data and back up or refute claims. So there’s no real reason or excuse to still be in the dark about all this, nor to keep perpetuating the same lazy and false accusations.
Here’s some more details on this and showing what proper journalism looks like:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/were-labours-antisemitism-failu | |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 12:07 - Feb 22 with 577 views | DJR |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 10:57 - Feb 22 by Darth_Koont |
He was absolutely accused of being an antisemite – still is – and yet where’s the evidence for people to say that?
Sensible, rational people know the evidence for that is lacking. So the standard response that was given throughout this period was the following which Ryorry helpfully confirmed:
“I can’t recall anyone on here ever calling Corbyn himself downright antisemitic; just criticising him for not cracking down as hard & as fast as he should have done as leader on anitsemitic behaviour/speech/media content of some within the LP - thereby opening himself up to accusations of being an apologist for antisemitism.”
Putting aside the idea no-one on here called Corbyn an antisemite (of course people did and do, just like that accusation has been allowed to hang around in the mainstream with minimal pushback), but this accepted narrative that Corbyn didn’t crack down hard enough on antisemitism has been debunked by the facts. Facts that the incredibly shonky Panorama documentary in particular ignored preferring its own disingenuous or even completely false accusations.
Antisemitism complaints aren’t handled by the leader’s office but by Labour HQ which is a largely separate organisation and mostly legacy-staffed from the Blair years. Until the middle of 2018, that organisation and the processes were “overseen” by Iain McNicol a Labour right-winger who allowed this factionalism to take over. Where antisemitism complaints were handled incredibly slowly and even put on the back burner to “hunt Trots” (anyone “left of Gordon Brown” according to these loons). And who didn’t properly implement the recommendations from the Chakrabarti Report that Corbyn himself had commissioned in 2016 to address antisemitism in the party.
That all changed when Corbyn put his own trusted colleague, Jennie Formby, in charge as General Secretary in 2018. Suddenly antisemitism complaints were being handled much more swiftly along with any resulting suspensions/expulsions. From 10 suspensions between November 2016 and February 2018 under McNicol to 29 suspensions in Jennie Formby’s first 3 months!!! These and other improvements were noted by the EHRC report but that was lost in the need to pin everything, including the previous issues, on Corbyn and the left more generally. A classic case of that is that Corbyn was censured by the EHRC for getting involved and trying to speed up the response, so a major criticism was him actually cracking down too hard and fast on antisemitism as it’s meant to be an independent and regulated process outside of the leader or anyone else’s personal responsibility or remit!
I fully understand that it’s not been easy to keep track of this as a casual observer who probably trusts the media to give them a somewhat objective picture. But, on this subject, people need to be a lot better informed about the actual facts as it’s patently obvious that the media are either ducking this so they don’t get in the firing line and accused of antisemitism denial etc. Or they’re taking advantage of that silence to keep pushing a weaponised version that is heavy on accusations that they know won’t be properly scrutinised by anyone else in the mainstream.
Luckily on this forum we can call out those who only have accusations and always ignore the evidence for their own weaponised and party political/factional reasons. And we can use the Internet to find the data and back up or refute claims. So there’s no real reason or excuse to still be in the dark about all this, nor to keep perpetuating the same lazy and false accusations.
Here’s some more details on this and showing what proper journalism looks like:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/were-labours-antisemitism-failu |
But Peter Oborne is a pillar of the establishment, and Justin Schlosberg, who is Jewish, is a useful idiot (according to his own description of himself on his Twitter feed)! [Post edited 22 Feb 2023 12:10]
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 12:53 - Feb 22 with 518 views | Ryorry |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 10:57 - Feb 22 by Darth_Koont |
He was absolutely accused of being an antisemite – still is – and yet where’s the evidence for people to say that?
Sensible, rational people know the evidence for that is lacking. So the standard response that was given throughout this period was the following which Ryorry helpfully confirmed:
“I can’t recall anyone on here ever calling Corbyn himself downright antisemitic; just criticising him for not cracking down as hard & as fast as he should have done as leader on anitsemitic behaviour/speech/media content of some within the LP - thereby opening himself up to accusations of being an apologist for antisemitism.”
Putting aside the idea no-one on here called Corbyn an antisemite (of course people did and do, just like that accusation has been allowed to hang around in the mainstream with minimal pushback), but this accepted narrative that Corbyn didn’t crack down hard enough on antisemitism has been debunked by the facts. Facts that the incredibly shonky Panorama documentary in particular ignored preferring its own disingenuous or even completely false accusations.
Antisemitism complaints aren’t handled by the leader’s office but by Labour HQ which is a largely separate organisation and mostly legacy-staffed from the Blair years. Until the middle of 2018, that organisation and the processes were “overseen” by Iain McNicol a Labour right-winger who allowed this factionalism to take over. Where antisemitism complaints were handled incredibly slowly and even put on the back burner to “hunt Trots” (anyone “left of Gordon Brown” according to these loons). And who didn’t properly implement the recommendations from the Chakrabarti Report that Corbyn himself had commissioned in 2016 to address antisemitism in the party.
That all changed when Corbyn put his own trusted colleague, Jennie Formby, in charge as General Secretary in 2018. Suddenly antisemitism complaints were being handled much more swiftly along with any resulting suspensions/expulsions. From 10 suspensions between November 2016 and February 2018 under McNicol to 29 suspensions in Jennie Formby’s first 3 months!!! These and other improvements were noted by the EHRC report but that was lost in the need to pin everything, including the previous issues, on Corbyn and the left more generally. A classic case of that is that Corbyn was censured by the EHRC for getting involved and trying to speed up the response, so a major criticism was him actually cracking down too hard and fast on antisemitism as it’s meant to be an independent and regulated process outside of the leader or anyone else’s personal responsibility or remit!
I fully understand that it’s not been easy to keep track of this as a casual observer who probably trusts the media to give them a somewhat objective picture. But, on this subject, people need to be a lot better informed about the actual facts as it’s patently obvious that the media are either ducking this so they don’t get in the firing line and accused of antisemitism denial etc. Or they’re taking advantage of that silence to keep pushing a weaponised version that is heavy on accusations that they know won’t be properly scrutinised by anyone else in the mainstream.
Luckily on this forum we can call out those who only have accusations and always ignore the evidence for their own weaponised and party political/factional reasons. And we can use the Internet to find the data and back up or refute claims. So there’s no real reason or excuse to still be in the dark about all this, nor to keep perpetuating the same lazy and false accusations.
Here’s some more details on this and showing what proper journalism looks like:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/were-labours-antisemitism-failu |
Corbyn's response to the publication/reproduction of the infamous antisemitic cartoon with its tropes (which I've searched for just now to get the date, but can't find, might have been 2017) - the one of 12 "businessmen" sitting round a table - alone demolishes your argument. Iirc* his persistent comments at the time were that he couldn't see anything antisemitic in it.
Which makes him look either naive, stupid, an apologist, or a combination of those. Take you pick.
*Edit: Have now found a Guardian article (23/03/2018) on the row, which related to comments JC had made on the mural on a facebook page in 2012. He did eventually fully apologise, but again iirc, not before arguing & towing the "can't see anything antisemitic in it" line for quite a while before issuing his apology & condemning the mural. [Post edited 22 Feb 2023 13:56]
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 12:55 - Feb 22 with 515 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 10:57 - Feb 22 by Darth_Koont |
He was absolutely accused of being an antisemite – still is – and yet where’s the evidence for people to say that?
Sensible, rational people know the evidence for that is lacking. So the standard response that was given throughout this period was the following which Ryorry helpfully confirmed:
“I can’t recall anyone on here ever calling Corbyn himself downright antisemitic; just criticising him for not cracking down as hard & as fast as he should have done as leader on anitsemitic behaviour/speech/media content of some within the LP - thereby opening himself up to accusations of being an apologist for antisemitism.”
Putting aside the idea no-one on here called Corbyn an antisemite (of course people did and do, just like that accusation has been allowed to hang around in the mainstream with minimal pushback), but this accepted narrative that Corbyn didn’t crack down hard enough on antisemitism has been debunked by the facts. Facts that the incredibly shonky Panorama documentary in particular ignored preferring its own disingenuous or even completely false accusations.
Antisemitism complaints aren’t handled by the leader’s office but by Labour HQ which is a largely separate organisation and mostly legacy-staffed from the Blair years. Until the middle of 2018, that organisation and the processes were “overseen” by Iain McNicol a Labour right-winger who allowed this factionalism to take over. Where antisemitism complaints were handled incredibly slowly and even put on the back burner to “hunt Trots” (anyone “left of Gordon Brown” according to these loons). And who didn’t properly implement the recommendations from the Chakrabarti Report that Corbyn himself had commissioned in 2016 to address antisemitism in the party.
That all changed when Corbyn put his own trusted colleague, Jennie Formby, in charge as General Secretary in 2018. Suddenly antisemitism complaints were being handled much more swiftly along with any resulting suspensions/expulsions. From 10 suspensions between November 2016 and February 2018 under McNicol to 29 suspensions in Jennie Formby’s first 3 months!!! These and other improvements were noted by the EHRC report but that was lost in the need to pin everything, including the previous issues, on Corbyn and the left more generally. A classic case of that is that Corbyn was censured by the EHRC for getting involved and trying to speed up the response, so a major criticism was him actually cracking down too hard and fast on antisemitism as it’s meant to be an independent and regulated process outside of the leader or anyone else’s personal responsibility or remit!
I fully understand that it’s not been easy to keep track of this as a casual observer who probably trusts the media to give them a somewhat objective picture. But, on this subject, people need to be a lot better informed about the actual facts as it’s patently obvious that the media are either ducking this so they don’t get in the firing line and accused of antisemitism denial etc. Or they’re taking advantage of that silence to keep pushing a weaponised version that is heavy on accusations that they know won’t be properly scrutinised by anyone else in the mainstream.
Luckily on this forum we can call out those who only have accusations and always ignore the evidence for their own weaponised and party political/factional reasons. And we can use the Internet to find the data and back up or refute claims. So there’s no real reason or excuse to still be in the dark about all this, nor to keep perpetuating the same lazy and false accusations.
Here’s some more details on this and showing what proper journalism looks like:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/were-labours-antisemitism-failu |
So Panarama is the latest to hit the DK smear list. To be added to ECHR, BBC, Th Guardian. What about Ofcom? Or the Courts that found in favour of John Ware? All this dismissing credible, impartial institutions (like the Trumpists) is why people give up engaging with you.
Last post on this because I’m sure Phil will shut it down soon. |  | | |
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