| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate 09:26 - Feb 15 with 20110 views | tractordownsouth |
Big choice for momentum now if he contests the election as an independent. Their MPs are mostly from the newer intakes and they won’t want to give up their jobs to campaign for Corbyn against a Labour candidate, but having alienated the moderate factions they need his base on board. [Post edited 15 Feb 2023 9:28]
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 12:42 - Feb 20 with 1051 views | Blueschev |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 12:34 - Feb 20 by GlasgowBlue |
Do you think being in favour of controlled immigration is bigoted or racist? |
Declaring it on a coffee cup seems a pretty bizarre thing for somebody non-bigoted or racist to do. |  | | |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 12:52 - Feb 20 with 1016 views | DJR |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 12:36 - Feb 20 by Blueschev |
My membership card states that Labour is a democratic socialist party. It's not unreasonable to be disappointed by the lack of either. [Post edited 20 Feb 2023 12:44]
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That's my view too.
Incidentally, I believe the retention of the words "democratic socialist" on the membership card was a compromise for the abolition of Clause 4, but it no longer reflects what the party stands for, and I am sure that if those in charge could change those words they would do.
Maybe "top-down centrist party" would more properly reflect what they've become. [Post edited 20 Feb 2023 12:54]
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 12:54 - Feb 20 with 1012 views | Blueschev |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 12:52 - Feb 20 by DJR |
That's my view too.
Incidentally, I believe the retention of the words "democratic socialist" on the membership card was a compromise for the abolition of Clause 4, but it no longer reflects what the party stands for, and I am sure that if those in charge could change those words they would do.
Maybe "top-down centrist party" would more properly reflect what they've become. [Post edited 20 Feb 2023 12:54]
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"At Least we're not the Tories" should be the campaign slogan for the next election. | | | |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 13:15 - Feb 20 with 987 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 12:34 - Feb 20 by Darth_Koont |
They were very poor on the Labour antisemitism crisis and any subsequent follow up when the facts were known. Almost as if they were run by Labour right-wingers …
They’re not as bad as the Campaign Against Antisemitism who are world-class lobbyists trying to bluff everyone but it’s a bit of a joke that these people with all their blind spots and hypocrisies are policing anti-racism.
The weaponisation of antisemitism has been and continues to be a scandalous low point in our politics. Reflecting entirely how poor, dishonest and self-interested our politics has become. |
This is top work mate. DK: “smears, smears, smears”
*proceeds to smear Hope not Hate*
Lovely stuff. |  | | |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 13:32 - Feb 20 with 969 views | positivity |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 12:52 - Feb 20 by DJR |
That's my view too.
Incidentally, I believe the retention of the words "democratic socialist" on the membership card was a compromise for the abolition of Clause 4, but it no longer reflects what the party stands for, and I am sure that if those in charge could change those words they would do.
Maybe "top-down centrist party" would more properly reflect what they've become. [Post edited 20 Feb 2023 12:54]
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the thing is they clearly are democratic and they clearly are socialist.
whether there are as democratic and/or socialist as an individual would like them to be is the question.
no party can be 100% socialist or 100% democratic, so someone's always going to be disappointed!
that's going to be hard to fit on a card though!
the 2 questions to avoid enabling the tories are.
are they better than the tories?
are they the best electable party in my seat?
if the answers to those are yes, then i vote for them.
if i wanted the perfect party that represented me, i'd only ever vote for the positivity party. we'd get one vote and the tories would remain in power in perpetuity and without any competition or restraint would continue to drift rightwards... | |
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| Half the thread pulled on 13:37 - Feb 20 with 951 views | Herbivore |
| Half the thread pulled on 12:15 - Feb 20 by blueasfook |
Last Labour govt had to move to the centre to get in govt. It seems Keir will do the same. I guess the country doesnt want a left wing govt. The electorate pretty much rejected Corbyn. I wonder why that is? What is it about left wing politics that makes people say "no thanks"? Is socialism dead? |
Lack of political education and a media run in the interests of the wealthy and powerful. |  |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 13:44 - Feb 20 with 927 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 12:54 - Feb 20 by Blueschev |
"At Least we're not the Tories" should be the campaign slogan for the next election. |
I would prefer 'unwavering support for business.' |  |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 13:46 - Feb 20 with 923 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 13:32 - Feb 20 by positivity |
the thing is they clearly are democratic and they clearly are socialist.
whether there are as democratic and/or socialist as an individual would like them to be is the question.
no party can be 100% socialist or 100% democratic, so someone's always going to be disappointed!
that's going to be hard to fit on a card though!
the 2 questions to avoid enabling the tories are.
are they better than the tories?
are they the best electable party in my seat?
if the answers to those are yes, then i vote for them.
if i wanted the perfect party that represented me, i'd only ever vote for the positivity party. we'd get one vote and the tories would remain in power in perpetuity and without any competition or restraint would continue to drift rightwards... |
This is exactly the low bar thinking that has allowed things to get progressively worse since Thatcher. | |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 13:46 - Feb 20 with 921 views | Herbivore |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 13:32 - Feb 20 by positivity |
the thing is they clearly are democratic and they clearly are socialist.
whether there are as democratic and/or socialist as an individual would like them to be is the question.
no party can be 100% socialist or 100% democratic, so someone's always going to be disappointed!
that's going to be hard to fit on a card though!
the 2 questions to avoid enabling the tories are.
are they better than the tories?
are they the best electable party in my seat?
if the answers to those are yes, then i vote for them.
if i wanted the perfect party that represented me, i'd only ever vote for the positivity party. we'd get one vote and the tories would remain in power in perpetuity and without any competition or restraint would continue to drift rightwards... |
I've not seen Starmer put forward any policies that could genuinely be described as socialist. | |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 13:58 - Feb 20 with 898 views | positivity |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 13:46 - Feb 20 by Herbivore |
I've not seen Starmer put forward any policies that could genuinely be described as socialist. |
define socialist! a hundred different people would give a hundred different answers.
calling for failing train companies to be nationalised could be defined as socialist
talking of nationalising the gp service could be defined as socialist.
talking of increasing training of nurses and doctors for the nhs could be defined as socialist | |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 14:02 - Feb 20 with 889 views | positivity |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 13:46 - Feb 20 by BanksterDebtSlave |
This is exactly the low bar thinking that has allowed things to get progressively worse since Thatcher. |
nonsense, this myth you're peddling of things being better under thatcher than under brown (or even major) doesn't stand up to scrutiny. i remember thatcher and it wasn't better then
general apathy, and washing your hands of engagement with government that you're proposing brought us brexit, boris, truss, sunak and co | |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 14:02 - Feb 20 with 878 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 12:42 - Feb 20 by Blueschev |
Declaring it on a coffee cup seems a pretty bizarre thing for somebody non-bigoted or racist to do. |
In isolation perhaps. But it was part of a series of mugs that featured five Labour pledges for the 2015 general election. Controlled immigration was just one.
You still haven’t said whether you are in favour of controlled immigration or uncontrolled immigration? |  |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 14:05 - Feb 20 with 863 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 13:15 - Feb 20 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
This is top work mate. DK: “smears, smears, smears”
*proceeds to smear Hope not Hate*
Lovely stuff. |
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| Half the thread pulled on 14:08 - Feb 20 with 846 views | Zapers |
| Half the thread pulled on 13:37 - Feb 20 by Herbivore |
Lack of political education and a media run in the interests of the wealthy and powerful. |
Really!! Wake up for goodness sake!! | | | |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 14:11 - Feb 20 with 836 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 13:46 - Feb 20 by Herbivore |
I've not seen Starmer put forward any policies that could genuinely be described as socialist. |
Abolition of tuition fees? | |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 14:25 - Feb 20 with 793 views | Blueschev |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 14:02 - Feb 20 by GlasgowBlue |
In isolation perhaps. But it was part of a series of mugs that featured five Labour pledges for the 2015 general election. Controlled immigration was just one.
You still haven’t said whether you are in favour of controlled immigration or uncontrolled immigration? |
If there's free movement of capital I don't see why there cannot also be free movement of people. Who benefits from immigration controls? Aside from newspaper headline writers. | | | |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 14:31 - Feb 20 with 775 views | DJR |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 14:11 - Feb 20 by GlasgowBlue |
Abolition of tuition fees? |
Unless you are closer to things than me, I am not so sure this is a policy they will pursue.
I believe Kate Green committed to it a couple of years ago, but the following quote from the linked article suggests it is unlikely to be party policy.
https://labourlist.org/2023/02/labour-students-back-motion-calling-for-party-to-
"This came after Keir Starmer failed to state whether Labour would abolish tuition fees in government (he said instead that he didn’t think the current system “works“).
You have to bear in mind that tuition fees were introduced by the Blair government, and the following passage from the same article suggests they are something the right of the party (now in charge) fully believe in.
"Tuition fees first came in under Tony Blair, to be precipitously increased under the coalition. Because of this genesis, accepting tuition fees became something of a signal of factional allegiance on the right of the party; as NUS president in 2009, Streeting campaigned against marketisation but not fees themselves. He said at the time: “As much as many of us still believe in the notion that students should not have to pay, the reality is that both major parties are committed to them paying, so the NUS has a choice — do we go in all guns flying with our traditional demands or do we get involved in a debates about fees and the funding of higher education?” | | | |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 14:41 - Feb 20 with 755 views | positivity |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 14:31 - Feb 20 by DJR |
Unless you are closer to things than me, I am not so sure this is a policy they will pursue.
I believe Kate Green committed to it a couple of years ago, but the following quote from the linked article suggests it is unlikely to be party policy.
https://labourlist.org/2023/02/labour-students-back-motion-calling-for-party-to-
"This came after Keir Starmer failed to state whether Labour would abolish tuition fees in government (he said instead that he didn’t think the current system “works“).
You have to bear in mind that tuition fees were introduced by the Blair government, and the following passage from the same article suggests they are something the right of the party (now in charge) fully believe in.
"Tuition fees first came in under Tony Blair, to be precipitously increased under the coalition. Because of this genesis, accepting tuition fees became something of a signal of factional allegiance on the right of the party; as NUS president in 2009, Streeting campaigned against marketisation but not fees themselves. He said at the time: “As much as many of us still believe in the notion that students should not have to pay, the reality is that both major parties are committed to them paying, so the NUS has a choice — do we go in all guns flying with our traditional demands or do we get involved in a debates about fees and the funding of higher education?” |
labour list aren't entirely neutral on this either, this will be them pressuring people in the party to commit to their position (exactly what they should be doing, but no indicator of policy)
the annoying part of this phase of the political cycle is that no serious opposition political party is going to cement it's policies right now.
so people with an irrational dislike of the leadership will project every article against their position as proof of policy and everything in favour as just words
similarly people loyal to the leadership will see the opposite.
the truth will lie somewhere in between as usual | |
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| Half the thread pulled on 14:54 - Feb 20 with 723 views | Herbivore |
| Half the thread pulled on 14:08 - Feb 20 by Zapers |
Really!! Wake up for goodness sake!! |
I'm fully woke. Not sure "wake up!" is quite the rebuttal you think it is either. | |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 14:54 - Feb 20 with 717 views | Herbivore |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 14:11 - Feb 20 by GlasgowBlue |
Abolition of tuition fees? |
I don't think that's something they've committed to is it? | |
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| Half the thread pulled on 14:55 - Feb 20 with 695 views | jaykay |
| Half the thread pulled on 11:21 - Feb 20 by blueasfook |
It always starts with Corbyn. Phil should make Corbyn a banned word. He's largely irrelevant now anyway. Not even worthy of debate |
is this the well known cancel culture |  |
| forensic experts say footers and spruces fingerprints were not found at the scene after the weekends rows |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 14:59 - Feb 20 with 687 views | Herbivore |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 13:58 - Feb 20 by positivity |
define socialist! a hundred different people would give a hundred different answers.
calling for failing train companies to be nationalised could be defined as socialist
talking of nationalising the gp service could be defined as socialist.
talking of increasing training of nurses and doctors for the nhs could be defined as socialist |
It's a stretch to describe those things as socialist. As a minimum, the railways should be brought entirely back under public ownership. The GP stuff is about how primary care will be run, it's not nationalisation per se as they are already under the NHS umbrella and free at the point of access. It's about trying to make them work better, same as training more GPs and nurses is about trying to make the health service actually function. Again, big stretch to describe that as a socialist policy. | |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 15:09 - Feb 20 with 647 views | Ryorry |
On very limited time, just to say that all this stupid division amongst Labourites is exactly what hands power to the #ToryCriminalsUnfitToGovern.
We need to play them at their own game. Unite!  Divided we fall. |  |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 15:13 - Feb 20 with 637 views | positivity |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 14:59 - Feb 20 by Herbivore |
It's a stretch to describe those things as socialist. As a minimum, the railways should be brought entirely back under public ownership. The GP stuff is about how primary care will be run, it's not nationalisation per se as they are already under the NHS umbrella and free at the point of access. It's about trying to make them work better, same as training more GPs and nurses is about trying to make the health service actually function. Again, big stretch to describe that as a socialist policy. |
that's why i asked you to define your version of socialism.
total public ownership is socialism for me, labour have never, ever been that
partial nationalism is partial socialism, so fair enough to have it on your card.
a lot of privatised nhs care is free at the point of access (not all, see dentists for example), labour have specifically said that free access will continue. nationalising gps is a step towards socialism, privatising hospitals would be a step away from socialism.
from my post to djr, the difficulty is that serious opposition parties won't have many concrete policies at this point in the political cycle, so you won't be able to pooint to many definitive policies yet, just a swathe of floated articles.
I agree on the railways as would most of the shadow cabinet, the differences would be on how fast and how expensive [Post edited 20 Feb 2023 15:15]
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 15:19 - Feb 20 with 619 views | Herbivore |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 15:13 - Feb 20 by positivity |
that's why i asked you to define your version of socialism.
total public ownership is socialism for me, labour have never, ever been that
partial nationalism is partial socialism, so fair enough to have it on your card.
a lot of privatised nhs care is free at the point of access (not all, see dentists for example), labour have specifically said that free access will continue. nationalising gps is a step towards socialism, privatising hospitals would be a step away from socialism.
from my post to djr, the difficulty is that serious opposition parties won't have many concrete policies at this point in the political cycle, so you won't be able to pooint to many definitive policies yet, just a swathe of floated articles.
I agree on the railways as would most of the shadow cabinet, the differences would be on how fast and how expensive [Post edited 20 Feb 2023 15:15]
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Only making rail companies public if they are failing is not socialism, it's pragmatism. Even the Tories have managed that, and nobody other than Chico would describe the Tories as socialists. Nothing Labour is currently proposing could meaningfully be described as socialist, nothing they are proposing is offering much of a challenge to the rampant neoliberalism we've been subjected to from Thatcher onwards. | |
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