| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate 09:26 - Feb 15 with 20119 views | tractordownsouth |
Big choice for momentum now if he contests the election as an independent. Their MPs are mostly from the newer intakes and they won’t want to give up their jobs to campaign for Corbyn against a Labour candidate, but having alienated the moderate factions they need his base on board. [Post edited 15 Feb 2023 9:28]
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 17:11 - Feb 20 with 1327 views | Zapers |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 17:10 - Feb 20 by Herbivore |
You have added literally nothing of any value on this thread. The sum total of your contributions might just about make up a terrible haiku. |
Yaya, night.x |  | | |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 17:12 - Feb 20 with 1326 views | positivity |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 17:04 - Feb 20 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I particularly liked the bit where Blair rolled back the selling of public housing, the privatisation of utilities and definitely didn't leave the NHS in hoc to PFI's. And things like Sure Start definitely weren't just down to a passing moment of easy credit but well thought out sovereign wealth funds. Thank goodness we have had such meaningful political options since Thatcher. |
you clearly didn't live through thatcherism; the nhs was on its knees. for all his faults (pfi being a big one), labour left the nhs in a massively better state until the tories defunded it.
keep on arguing for the tories if you want, but i want change and britain needs it. labour are the only credible positive alternative; show me another and i'll vote for it | |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 17:13 - Feb 20 with 1311 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 15:13 - Feb 20 by positivity |
that's why i asked you to define your version of socialism.
total public ownership is socialism for me, labour have never, ever been that
partial nationalism is partial socialism, so fair enough to have it on your card.
a lot of privatised nhs care is free at the point of access (not all, see dentists for example), labour have specifically said that free access will continue. nationalising gps is a step towards socialism, privatising hospitals would be a step away from socialism.
from my post to djr, the difficulty is that serious opposition parties won't have many concrete policies at this point in the political cycle, so you won't be able to pooint to many definitive policies yet, just a swathe of floated articles.
I agree on the railways as would most of the shadow cabinet, the differences would be on how fast and how expensive [Post edited 20 Feb 2023 15:15]
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"partial nationalism is partial socialism, so fair enough to have it on your card."
Is privatisation perhaps almost socialism. That's probably socialist enough for many. |  |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 17:18 - Feb 20 with 1297 views | positivity |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 17:13 - Feb 20 by BanksterDebtSlave |
"partial nationalism is partial socialism, so fair enough to have it on your card."
Is privatisation perhaps almost socialism. That's probably socialist enough for many. |
this was clearly explained.
privatisation = not socialism
partial nationalisation = a bit socialist
total nationalisation = socialism
labour (and all pragmatic left of centre parties) fit into the middle category and always have done. not sure if even the communists expect total nationalisation immediately, they'd be paying vast amounts of money to capitalists and/or lawyers/mercenaries!! [Post edited 20 Feb 2023 18:51]
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 17:19 - Feb 20 with 1284 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 17:12 - Feb 20 by positivity |
you clearly didn't live through thatcherism; the nhs was on its knees. for all his faults (pfi being a big one), labour left the nhs in a massively better state until the tories defunded it.
keep on arguing for the tories if you want, but i want change and britain needs it. labour are the only credible positive alternative; show me another and i'll vote for it |
I was on the picket lines and in the soup kitchens of West Yorkshire thanks. She won and has continued to win ever since. | |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 17:22 - Feb 20 with 1276 views | positivity |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 17:19 - Feb 20 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I was on the picket lines and in the soup kitchens of West Yorkshire thanks. She won and has continued to win ever since. |
she lost, she was forced out and her modern-day acolytes like rees-mogg will lose again (unless we get complacent and argue amongst ourselves like 2019) [Post edited 20 Feb 2023 17:23]
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 17:53 - Feb 20 with 1201 views | Zapers |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 17:19 - Feb 20 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I was on the picket lines and in the soup kitchens of West Yorkshire thanks. She won and has continued to win ever since. |
Bravo, but you have yet to experience the soup kitchens in LA. Every second person threatens to knife you and rape your girl. There are some decent, but hey ho, people gotta be fed. | | | |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 18:03 - Feb 20 with 1184 views | noggin |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 17:53 - Feb 20 by Zapers |
Bravo, but you have yet to experience the soup kitchens in LA. Every second person threatens to knife you and rape your girl. There are some decent, but hey ho, people gotta be fed. |
So you're saying that American capitalism has failed massively? |  |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 18:48 - Feb 20 with 1157 views | Darth_Koont |
Wait a minute. You’re using Starmer’s pledges he’s already broken or distanced himself from?!!
He put himself forward as leader stating that he would build on the 2017 and 2019 manifestos. But that was clearly just a lie given everything he’s said and done since. |  |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 19:26 - Feb 20 with 1129 views | DJR |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 15:13 - Feb 20 by positivity |
that's why i asked you to define your version of socialism.
total public ownership is socialism for me, labour have never, ever been that
partial nationalism is partial socialism, so fair enough to have it on your card.
a lot of privatised nhs care is free at the point of access (not all, see dentists for example), labour have specifically said that free access will continue. nationalising gps is a step towards socialism, privatising hospitals would be a step away from socialism.
from my post to djr, the difficulty is that serious opposition parties won't have many concrete policies at this point in the political cycle, so you won't be able to pooint to many definitive policies yet, just a swathe of floated articles.
I agree on the railways as would most of the shadow cabinet, the differences would be on how fast and how expensive [Post edited 20 Feb 2023 15:15]
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This is my take on it, for what it is worth.
I agree with what you say in the first two paragraphs of your post.
Total public ownership (or socialism) was in Clause IV of the constitution of the Labour Party ("common ownership of means of production, distribution and exchange") but, as you say, Labour never implemented that.
Instead, the post-war Labour Party favoured a mixed economy with the nationalisation of key industries (partial socialism), which could also be called social democracy, and is common in many successful European countries.
Interestingly, the nationalisation of key industries was a policy favoured by both parties in the post-war period up to 1979, because the Tories did not reverse the nationalisations of the 1945-50 Labour government, Ted Heath nationalised Rolls Royce in the early '70s, and MacMillan in the '80s warned about selling off the family silver.
Beginning with the Blair government (and with the exception of the Corbyn period), the two major parties have supported privatisation and the role of the private sector (eg PFI which was much more expensive than if the government had paid for hospitals themselves). Indeed, the reaction of Starmer to the failure of energy privatisation (the collapse of Bulb alone is likely to add £200 to energy bills) was to propose different a different regulatory regime.
To my mind, privatisation is a key feature of neo-liberalism, which is the polar opposite of socialism. For that reason, I do not think the Labour Party under Starmer can be described as socialist. The country's politics have moved firmly to the right (with Labour in my view now being centre, not left or centre-left), and Corbyn's election was probably the last throw of the dice for a return to partial socialism.
Of course, it's not just the move away from nationalisation, because before 1979, there were things like plentiful council housing, rent controls and security of tenure.
Perhaps as confirmation of the rightwards drift of Labour, (which includes embarrassment about the trade union links) here are the words of Tony Blair.
"I always thought my job was to build on some of the things [Mrs Thatcher] had done rather than reverse them."
The admiration by the right of the Labour Party for aspects of Tory policy is also confirmed by what a friend of mine who worked for Labour in the early Blair years has told me. He has a friend who is and was pretty high up in Blairite/New Labour circles, and currently works as an adviser to Sadiq Khan. Apparently, he and people of his ilk were pretty supportive of Cameron and Johnson (when he was mayor) because they saw them as fellow liberals.
Having said all this, I would still vote for Labour. [Post edited 20 Feb 2023 19:51]
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 22:35 - Feb 20 with 1038 views | positivity |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 19:26 - Feb 20 by DJR |
This is my take on it, for what it is worth.
I agree with what you say in the first two paragraphs of your post.
Total public ownership (or socialism) was in Clause IV of the constitution of the Labour Party ("common ownership of means of production, distribution and exchange") but, as you say, Labour never implemented that.
Instead, the post-war Labour Party favoured a mixed economy with the nationalisation of key industries (partial socialism), which could also be called social democracy, and is common in many successful European countries.
Interestingly, the nationalisation of key industries was a policy favoured by both parties in the post-war period up to 1979, because the Tories did not reverse the nationalisations of the 1945-50 Labour government, Ted Heath nationalised Rolls Royce in the early '70s, and MacMillan in the '80s warned about selling off the family silver.
Beginning with the Blair government (and with the exception of the Corbyn period), the two major parties have supported privatisation and the role of the private sector (eg PFI which was much more expensive than if the government had paid for hospitals themselves). Indeed, the reaction of Starmer to the failure of energy privatisation (the collapse of Bulb alone is likely to add £200 to energy bills) was to propose different a different regulatory regime.
To my mind, privatisation is a key feature of neo-liberalism, which is the polar opposite of socialism. For that reason, I do not think the Labour Party under Starmer can be described as socialist. The country's politics have moved firmly to the right (with Labour in my view now being centre, not left or centre-left), and Corbyn's election was probably the last throw of the dice for a return to partial socialism.
Of course, it's not just the move away from nationalisation, because before 1979, there were things like plentiful council housing, rent controls and security of tenure.
Perhaps as confirmation of the rightwards drift of Labour, (which includes embarrassment about the trade union links) here are the words of Tony Blair.
"I always thought my job was to build on some of the things [Mrs Thatcher] had done rather than reverse them."
The admiration by the right of the Labour Party for aspects of Tory policy is also confirmed by what a friend of mine who worked for Labour in the early Blair years has told me. He has a friend who is and was pretty high up in Blairite/New Labour circles, and currently works as an adviser to Sadiq Khan. Apparently, he and people of his ilk were pretty supportive of Cameron and Johnson (when he was mayor) because they saw them as fellow liberals.
Having said all this, I would still vote for Labour. [Post edited 20 Feb 2023 19:51]
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interesting post, thanks.
i think the reaction to the nationalization of rail franchises is going to be interesting and indicative of which direction starmer will take.
there is some natural caution about being seen as too foot-y and giving an open goal to their opponents in the press. however, the public can see the complete mess on the railways, and it's difficult for proponents of privatization to make any kind of compelling case against it. it's going to be important for these nationalised franchises to be shown to be good value and a success, then more will follow.
a friend of mine is a city councillor on the left of the party and she's very positive about starmer both personally, and thinking that he'll be able to achieve more than a corbyn-type as the public will give him more slack due to his credible and competent past. she does think that they will be cautious about loading on too much debt though, so changes won't be as quick as we'd all like, but i guess that's no surprise given the circumstances | |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 07:25 - Feb 21 with 924 views | GlasgowBlue |
I think this is perfectly summed up by the Guardian’s Rafael Lawrence Behr. It completely snookers anyone supporting Jeremy Corbyn continuing as a Labour MP.
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 07:36 - Feb 21 with 899 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 07:25 - Feb 21 by GlasgowBlue |
I think this is perfectly summed up by the Guardian’s Rafael Lawrence Behr. It completely snookers anyone supporting Jeremy Corbyn continuing as a Labour MP.
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Utter gaslighting nonsense. | |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 07:40 - Feb 21 with 885 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 07:36 - Feb 21 by Darth_Koont |
Utter gaslighting nonsense. |
Koonters telling Jews that he knows better when it comes to antisemitism. | |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 07:41 - Feb 21 with 872 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 07:40 - Feb 21 by GlasgowBlue |
Koonters telling Jews that he knows better when it comes to antisemitism. |
As usual the only Jews that really count are the ones that agree with you. | |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 07:43 - Feb 21 with 865 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 07:40 - Feb 21 by GlasgowBlue |
Koonters telling Jews that he knows better when it comes to antisemitism. |
No. It’s me telling Behr (and you) that he’s talking out of his @rse given the actual facts, not the smeary narrative about left-wingers that he’s lazily and offensively projecting. | |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 07:49 - Feb 21 with 847 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Understandable. | |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 07:52 - Feb 21 with 844 views | Darth_Koont |
That’s the force of narrative, weaponised to its extreme by people like you and the frankly shoddy Jewish Chronicle in their own coverage.
If you believe this to be true then Corbyn would have been expelled from the party. But the reason he wasn’t is because the facts have never added up to the accusation. | |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 07:54 - Feb 21 with 837 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 07:52 - Feb 21 by Darth_Koont |
That’s the force of narrative, weaponised to its extreme by people like you and the frankly shoddy Jewish Chronicle in their own coverage.
If you believe this to be true then Corbyn would have been expelled from the party. But the reason he wasn’t is because the facts have never added up to the accusation. |
Why has Corbyn never sued anyone for calling him an anti semite? He was quick enough to take action against Ben Bradley for calling him a spy.
Surely Jeremy would relish his day in court? | |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 08:12 - Feb 21 with 825 views | Herbivore |
This is certainly a new and fruitful debate. |  |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 08:26 - Feb 21 with 807 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 07:54 - Feb 21 by GlasgowBlue |
Why has Corbyn never sued anyone for calling him an anti semite? He was quick enough to take action against Ben Bradley for calling him a spy.
Surely Jeremy would relish his day in court? |
I don’t know. Maybe because he shouldn’t have to lower himself to that nor take on the significant time and expense. Perhaps he will one day – I’d like to see it.
But you haven’t answered why Starmer et al haven’t thrown out an “antisemite” from the party. Don’t they have the evidence? Surely not ...
Or are you saying they have the evidence but clearly aren’t serious enough about antisemitism?
You must be frothing by now. | |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 08:43 - Feb 21 with 791 views | Churchman |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 07:54 - Feb 21 by GlasgowBlue |
Why has Corbyn never sued anyone for calling him an anti semite? He was quick enough to take action against Ben Bradley for calling him a spy.
Surely Jeremy would relish his day in court? |
From the outside looking in I’ve never liked Corbyn. For me he’s a protester who was elevated beyond his capabilities. I don’t agree with much of his politics or how he went about things as a leader.
I’ve seen up close a few times and he always struck me as a rather grey, miserable little man. Mind you on one of those occasions it was mutual dislike as he was getting stick off veterans on Horseguards on Remembrance Sunday.
However, while I might disagree with his principles/politics and sometimes actions, I do not believe Corbyn is personally anti semitic. For me it doesn’t sit right with what I’ve read of him as a person. There are people within his party who are, given the evidence of a number of people who’ve come forward on this. It’s his failure to deal with that for which I believe he can be condemned.
Did he knowingly tolerate or ignore it? There are people far better qualified than me to comment.
As for Starmer, there are plenty of people on here that don’t have much time for him. Being more aligned to his view of the world I think he’s ok, if a little boring. But I don’t care whether he’s boring or doing Singin in the Rain. I just want somebody in No 10 who is competent, decent, honest and pragmatic. Any of those qualities would make a change from the last 13 years of chancers and tools tearing this country apart and filling their boots.. |  | | |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 09:16 - Feb 21 with 714 views | positivity |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 08:43 - Feb 21 by Churchman |
From the outside looking in I’ve never liked Corbyn. For me he’s a protester who was elevated beyond his capabilities. I don’t agree with much of his politics or how he went about things as a leader.
I’ve seen up close a few times and he always struck me as a rather grey, miserable little man. Mind you on one of those occasions it was mutual dislike as he was getting stick off veterans on Horseguards on Remembrance Sunday.
However, while I might disagree with his principles/politics and sometimes actions, I do not believe Corbyn is personally anti semitic. For me it doesn’t sit right with what I’ve read of him as a person. There are people within his party who are, given the evidence of a number of people who’ve come forward on this. It’s his failure to deal with that for which I believe he can be condemned.
Did he knowingly tolerate or ignore it? There are people far better qualified than me to comment.
As for Starmer, there are plenty of people on here that don’t have much time for him. Being more aligned to his view of the world I think he’s ok, if a little boring. But I don’t care whether he’s boring or doing Singin in the Rain. I just want somebody in No 10 who is competent, decent, honest and pragmatic. Any of those qualities would make a change from the last 13 years of chancers and tools tearing this country apart and filling their boots.. |
pretty similar, corbyn's generally a good man, a great campaigner, but a weak leader with some big blind spots.
glad he's gone, but appreciative of some of his past interventions | |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 09:59 - Feb 21 with 667 views | DJR |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 08:43 - Feb 21 by Churchman |
From the outside looking in I’ve never liked Corbyn. For me he’s a protester who was elevated beyond his capabilities. I don’t agree with much of his politics or how he went about things as a leader.
I’ve seen up close a few times and he always struck me as a rather grey, miserable little man. Mind you on one of those occasions it was mutual dislike as he was getting stick off veterans on Horseguards on Remembrance Sunday.
However, while I might disagree with his principles/politics and sometimes actions, I do not believe Corbyn is personally anti semitic. For me it doesn’t sit right with what I’ve read of him as a person. There are people within his party who are, given the evidence of a number of people who’ve come forward on this. It’s his failure to deal with that for which I believe he can be condemned.
Did he knowingly tolerate or ignore it? There are people far better qualified than me to comment.
As for Starmer, there are plenty of people on here that don’t have much time for him. Being more aligned to his view of the world I think he’s ok, if a little boring. But I don’t care whether he’s boring or doing Singin in the Rain. I just want somebody in No 10 who is competent, decent, honest and pragmatic. Any of those qualities would make a change from the last 13 years of chancers and tools tearing this country apart and filling their boots.. |
I think this is proof that he is not an antisemite, but it never got any coverage. The video is particularly worth watching, where he rather emotionally mentions his mother's involvement in the Battle of Cable Street.
https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/corbyn-speaks-of-mothers-role-in-battle-cable-stree
Here is further evidence.
https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/fifty-times-jeremy-corbyn-stood-
It mustn't be forgotten that Corbyn had the support of many prominent Jewish people, such as Alexi Sayle, Michael Rosen, Myriam Margoyles and Geoffrey Bindman KC, but such people never got any coverage in the media. And it is certainly worth reading in full the following post from Michael Rosen, which contains the following quote.
"I've known Jeremy Corbyn for 30 years. He is no antisemite. He has put his neck on the line hundreds of times in opposing racism, antisemitism, far right fascism, holocaust denial."
https://www.facebook.com/michael.rosen.5496/posts/10157626523532225
Interestingly, Geoffrey Bindman, a prominent human rights lawyer, has grave concerns about the ECHR report, but I won't go into that here. [Post edited 21 Feb 2023 10:23]
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