| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate 09:26 - Feb 15 with 20104 views | tractordownsouth |
Big choice for momentum now if he contests the election as an independent. Their MPs are mostly from the newer intakes and they won’t want to give up their jobs to campaign for Corbyn against a Labour candidate, but having alienated the moderate factions they need his base on board. [Post edited 15 Feb 2023 9:28]
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 13:59 - Feb 16 with 1132 views | positivity |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 13:55 - Feb 16 by leitrimblue |
Not sure I would call Starmers Labour the hard right quite yet  |
koonters thinks he's somewhere right of hitler, i think!
for all blair's manifold faults the nhs was in a much better state during his leadership than in the tory periods before and after! |  |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 14:12 - Feb 16 with 1093 views | Herbivore |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 13:51 - Feb 16 by positivity |
so what's the answer? do you vote for the best option and keep challenging them to be better?
or do you waste your vote on a galloway/corbyn-type protest and allow the hard right to wreck the NHS further?
it's good to have principles, but making the perfect the enemy of the good is never a great idea! |
The best option is probably the Green Party at the moment, in England anyway. We're close to being at the same point we were under New Labour where the Lib Dems actually end up being the 'left' option of the three main parties simply by remaining in the centre and watching Labour drift rightwards. We might already be there to be fair. |  |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 14:20 - Feb 16 with 1079 views | giant_stow |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 14:12 - Feb 16 by Herbivore |
The best option is probably the Green Party at the moment, in England anyway. We're close to being at the same point we were under New Labour where the Lib Dems actually end up being the 'left' option of the three main parties simply by remaining in the centre and watching Labour drift rightwards. We might already be there to be fair. |
Can we not expect Starmer's labour to drift back left if/when its in power? |  |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 14:33 - Feb 16 with 1047 views | Herbivore |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 14:20 - Feb 16 by giant_stow |
Can we not expect Starmer's labour to drift back left if/when its in power? |
There's not much evidence they will and if they did it would be rather duplicitous to pretend to be Diet Tory and then when in government revert back to being genuinely progressive. | |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 14:37 - Feb 16 with 1035 views | positivity |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 14:12 - Feb 16 by Herbivore |
The best option is probably the Green Party at the moment, in England anyway. We're close to being at the same point we were under New Labour where the Lib Dems actually end up being the 'left' option of the three main parties simply by remaining in the centre and watching Labour drift rightwards. We might already be there to be fair. |
voting for the greens is effectively letting in the tories in all but a handful of seats.
ideally we need pr, but in the real world this will take years to get in. until then we just need to get the tories out and keep the pressure on a labour govt.
"new" labour improved the nhs vastly, i'd prefer them to the tories every day of the week! | |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 14:38 - Feb 16 with 1029 views | leitrimblue |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 13:59 - Feb 16 by positivity |
koonters thinks he's somewhere right of hitler, i think!
for all blair's manifold faults the nhs was in a much better state during his leadership than in the tory periods before and after! |
I don't wish to answer on Darths behalf, but I imagine though he clearly doesn't see Starmer as right of Hitler he probably feels that starmars charter of nothing really changing, but things being very slightly better then they are now is a very disappointing alternative to the sh1te show we currently have. |  | | |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 14:40 - Feb 16 with 1021 views | Herbivore |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 14:37 - Feb 16 by positivity |
voting for the greens is effectively letting in the tories in all but a handful of seats.
ideally we need pr, but in the real world this will take years to get in. until then we just need to get the tories out and keep the pressure on a labour govt.
"new" labour improved the nhs vastly, i'd prefer them to the tories every day of the week! |
If Labour put PR in their manifesto then I'd probably vote for them. Otherwise there's not much incentive. The NHS may have been in a better state under Blair but he also laid the groundwork for a lot of the current issues the NHS is facing, especially PFIs and allowing greater private sector access to the NHS more generally. Streeting is very much wanting to follow that same model. | |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 15:17 - Feb 16 with 982 views | positivity |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 14:38 - Feb 16 by leitrimblue |
I don't wish to answer on Darths behalf, but I imagine though he clearly doesn't see Starmer as right of Hitler he probably feels that starmars charter of nothing really changing, but things being very slightly better then they are now is a very disappointing alternative to the sh1te show we currently have. |
i'd rather that things got better than got worse though, which is what will happen if labour don't get in... | |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 15:20 - Feb 16 with 960 views | positivity |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 14:40 - Feb 16 by Herbivore |
If Labour put PR in their manifesto then I'd probably vote for them. Otherwise there's not much incentive. The NHS may have been in a better state under Blair but he also laid the groundwork for a lot of the current issues the NHS is facing, especially PFIs and allowing greater private sector access to the NHS more generally. Streeting is very much wanting to follow that same model. |
where has streeting said that, the only thing i've seen is that they'd like to nationalise the GP service (which is laudable, but probably unworkable).
whatever, as an nhs employee and user, i'd rather see a partially privatised nhs that worked rather than one being run into the ground so that it can be abolished which is what a non-labour government is working towards. | |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 15:26 - Feb 16 with 942 views | leitrimblue |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 15:17 - Feb 16 by positivity |
i'd rather that things got better than got worse though, which is what will happen if labour don't get in... |
Yer, but if that is the best the poorest and most deprived in society can hope for then the perhaps it's time to admit the system is fecked | | | |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 15:26 - Feb 16 with 942 views | thebooks |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 15:17 - Feb 16 by positivity |
i'd rather that things got better than got worse though, which is what will happen if labour don't get in... |
Problem is that politics is so volatile now. Simply offering something possibly slightly better won't actually solve the problems that gave rise to Trump, Brexit etc. etc. I see very little legacy from New Labour, apart from PFI and comms and PR.
Also, I think Lab will win so comfortably we might be in a rare position where a vote for the Greens or Corbyn is possible without then letting the Tories in. It's also possible the Greens pick up a few extra seats in places like Bristol because of Starmer (which might pose a longterm problem for Labour, once voting Green is seen as a viable option). |  | | |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 15:33 - Feb 16 with 927 views | positivity |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 15:26 - Feb 16 by leitrimblue |
Yer, but if that is the best the poorest and most deprived in society can hope for then the perhaps it's time to admit the system is fecked |
only a few student grants in the socialist worker party think that changing the system quickly is realistic.
if you can't change the system, make it better. whatever you do, don't let it get worse, the effects will fall on the poorest and most deprived in society, not the middle class sw's! | |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 15:38 - Feb 16 with 916 views | leitrimblue |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 15:33 - Feb 16 by positivity |
only a few student grants in the socialist worker party think that changing the system quickly is realistic.
if you can't change the system, make it better. whatever you do, don't let it get worse, the effects will fall on the poorest and most deprived in society, not the middle class sw's! |
I'm not suggesting changing the system quickly. I'm just saying it would be nice for an opposition party to concentrate on improving the life's of the poorest and most deprived in society rather then just being there to pat the middle class on the head and reassure them that nothing is going to change and everything is going to be ok. Incredibly controversial I know | | | |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 15:40 - Feb 16 with 914 views | positivity |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 15:26 - Feb 16 by thebooks |
Problem is that politics is so volatile now. Simply offering something possibly slightly better won't actually solve the problems that gave rise to Trump, Brexit etc. etc. I see very little legacy from New Labour, apart from PFI and comms and PR.
Also, I think Lab will win so comfortably we might be in a rare position where a vote for the Greens or Corbyn is possible without then letting the Tories in. It's also possible the Greens pick up a few extra seats in places like Bristol because of Starmer (which might pose a longterm problem for Labour, once voting Green is seen as a viable option). |
i would vote green where they had a chance of getting in (brighton, bristol, maybe even n***h, but for the rest of us, the choices are binary, better(labour) or worse (tories or any other party which lets the tories win)
in the nhs i see legacies, which even a decade of tory rule hasn't been able to unpick entirely.
the trick is to make good choices which are popular, the average person on the street sees that the nhs is a mess, that it was demonstrably better under labour. they see that the minimum wage is a good thing, that smoking cessation services are a good thing, that diabetes clinics are a good thing, therefore tory efforts to run it down further are resisted and tories have to water down their plans or steal them. you can't do this from opposition | |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 15:42 - Feb 16 with 903 views | positivity |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 15:38 - Feb 16 by leitrimblue |
I'm not suggesting changing the system quickly. I'm just saying it would be nice for an opposition party to concentrate on improving the life's of the poorest and most deprived in society rather then just being there to pat the middle class on the head and reassure them that nothing is going to change and everything is going to be ok. Incredibly controversial I know |
even new labour improved the lives of the poorest and most deprived in society, so would current labour.
the tories would do the opposite as they have done for 13 years, it's a clear choice, better or worse? | |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 15:48 - Feb 16 with 889 views | leitrimblue |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 15:42 - Feb 16 by positivity |
even new labour improved the lives of the poorest and most deprived in society, so would current labour.
the tories would do the opposite as they have done for 13 years, it's a clear choice, better or worse? |
Really? I don't remember much social change or real improvement at the time. Me, most of my family and friends spent most of new Labour's time( the only time I ever voted in uk) living on Haverhills Chalkstone Estate, definitely don't remember a enormous improvement in our lifestyle, opportunities etc.. And I don't expect Starmers Labour to be much different | | | |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 16:14 - Feb 16 with 850 views | positivity |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 15:48 - Feb 16 by leitrimblue |
Really? I don't remember much social change or real improvement at the time. Me, most of my family and friends spent most of new Labour's time( the only time I ever voted in uk) living on Haverhills Chalkstone Estate, definitely don't remember a enormous improvement in our lifestyle, opportunities etc.. And I don't expect Starmers Labour to be much different |
definite difference in my inner city yorkshire base, the minimum wage was a gamechanger, surestart was vital, the smoking bans and massive investment in public health made a big difference.
i expect starmer & rayner's labour to do as much (or more as the tories have trashed it more than major). do you really see no difference between starmer & rayner versus sunak & raab? who would you rather see in power next year?
because revolution ain't gonna happen unfortunately! | |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 16:58 - Feb 16 with 808 views | leitrimblue |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 16:14 - Feb 16 by positivity |
definite difference in my inner city yorkshire base, the minimum wage was a gamechanger, surestart was vital, the smoking bans and massive investment in public health made a big difference.
i expect starmer & rayner's labour to do as much (or more as the tories have trashed it more than major). do you really see no difference between starmer & rayner versus sunak & raab? who would you rather see in power next year?
because revolution ain't gonna happen unfortunately! |
Slight increase in minimum wage is a bonus. Though if the only employment options are sh1te, low payed, low skilled affairs I can't say I was to tempted for 50p extra an hour or whatever it was.Ive already said that I think Starmer will be an improvement on Sunak etc. Just I don't believe it will have the kinda benefits needed to genuinely improve the lives of the most deprived in society. Perhaps he will surprise us all, who knows. I quite like Rayner.
Given the choice of the 2 I would obviously rather see Labour in power. But I doubt I would be tempted to vote for um. I currently live in the North West of Ireland and will be voting Sinn Fein again. | | | |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 17:05 - Feb 16 with 803 views | positivity |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 16:58 - Feb 16 by leitrimblue |
Slight increase in minimum wage is a bonus. Though if the only employment options are sh1te, low payed, low skilled affairs I can't say I was to tempted for 50p extra an hour or whatever it was.Ive already said that I think Starmer will be an improvement on Sunak etc. Just I don't believe it will have the kinda benefits needed to genuinely improve the lives of the most deprived in society. Perhaps he will surprise us all, who knows. I quite like Rayner.
Given the choice of the 2 I would obviously rather see Labour in power. But I doubt I would be tempted to vote for um. I currently live in the North West of Ireland and will be voting Sinn Fein again. |
i would agree that for you voting labour would be a complete waste of time!
i'm just hoping the tories get voted out and that labour can make a positive change.
i definitely won't agree with every single thing they do, and i'm sure i'll moan and campaign against some of them.
but that's still no reason for me to give up and accept things getting worse through enabling the tories to stay in by protest voting for a pricipled no-hoper | |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 17:13 - Feb 16 with 790 views | leitrimblue |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 17:05 - Feb 16 by positivity |
i would agree that for you voting labour would be a complete waste of time!
i'm just hoping the tories get voted out and that labour can make a positive change.
i definitely won't agree with every single thing they do, and i'm sure i'll moan and campaign against some of them.
but that's still no reason for me to give up and accept things getting worse through enabling the tories to stay in by protest voting for a pricipled no-hoper |
If I was living in UK and my vote would make the difference of wether Labour or Tories got in I would obviously vote Labour and hope for the best. Who knows, perhaps Starmer is going for a Trojan horse style approach to winning the next election and once PM may take a enormous step to the left. And me an my middle class Socialist Worker friends will be stuffing our mouths with the rich 😉 | | | |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 17:28 - Feb 16 with 757 views | thebooks |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 16:14 - Feb 16 by positivity |
definite difference in my inner city yorkshire base, the minimum wage was a gamechanger, surestart was vital, the smoking bans and massive investment in public health made a big difference.
i expect starmer & rayner's labour to do as much (or more as the tories have trashed it more than major). do you really see no difference between starmer & rayner versus sunak & raab? who would you rather see in power next year?
because revolution ain't gonna happen unfortunately! |
At the risk of going round in circles, a moderate social democratic platform is not “revolution”.
Yes, Surestart was very good, and shouldn’t be forgotten. The minimum wage was mixed: it was very low, and ironically enough can be a means to surpress wages.
But a lot of the problems we see now began under Labour, especially in the NHS. Do I expect more of Labour? Not a huge amount when you hear all the illiterate noises about there being no money to spend and the likes of Streeting banging on about private health care: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/dec/08/people-in-pain-private-hos
The question should be: “is that all you can expect?” Not “don’t you prefer that to Sunak, Raab etc.” What a ridiculously low bar. | | | |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 17:38 - Feb 16 with 742 views | giant_stow |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 17:28 - Feb 16 by thebooks |
At the risk of going round in circles, a moderate social democratic platform is not “revolution”.
Yes, Surestart was very good, and shouldn’t be forgotten. The minimum wage was mixed: it was very low, and ironically enough can be a means to surpress wages.
But a lot of the problems we see now began under Labour, especially in the NHS. Do I expect more of Labour? Not a huge amount when you hear all the illiterate noises about there being no money to spend and the likes of Streeting banging on about private health care: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/dec/08/people-in-pain-private-hos
The question should be: “is that all you can expect?” Not “don’t you prefer that to Sunak, Raab etc.” What a ridiculously low bar. |
At this risk of enraging you (please accept this as a genuine question) the 'illiterate noises about no money to spend' has me intrigued - is there actually loads spare? Or are you saying we need to tax loads more things? | |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 17:49 - Feb 16 with 732 views | positivity |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 17:28 - Feb 16 by thebooks |
At the risk of going round in circles, a moderate social democratic platform is not “revolution”.
Yes, Surestart was very good, and shouldn’t be forgotten. The minimum wage was mixed: it was very low, and ironically enough can be a means to surpress wages.
But a lot of the problems we see now began under Labour, especially in the NHS. Do I expect more of Labour? Not a huge amount when you hear all the illiterate noises about there being no money to spend and the likes of Streeting banging on about private health care: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/dec/08/people-in-pain-private-hos
The question should be: “is that all you can expect?” Not “don’t you prefer that to Sunak, Raab etc.” What a ridiculously low bar. |
that's not what i'm saying at all. revolution would be great, but it ain't gonna happen in the real world.
so, the best thing in reality is evolution, a shift to the left, a shift to competency and keep their feet to the fire
the only real world alternative to that is sit around moaning as another tory government makes things worse still.
i work in the nhs and streeting has a point. there is no capacity in the nhs, and training takes time, in the short term we will need to create capacity through sub-optimal means (using private and recruiting from other countries, which is ethically dubious) until the training happens. what's your alternative?
would you rather things got better (even slightly) or worse? | |
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| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 17:56 - Feb 16 with 712 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 17:38 - Feb 16 by giant_stow |
At this risk of enraging you (please accept this as a genuine question) the 'illiterate noises about no money to spend' has me intrigued - is there actually loads spare? Or are you saying we need to tax loads more things? |
Higher taxation is the only option and politicians of all colours need to be honest on that.
The “party of fiscal responsibility” have stretched national debt to record level v GDP, presided over sovereign rating downgrades making borrowing more expensive, all while degrading public services. Any further borrowing without a credible plan to pay it back is just goi g to further erode sterling and increase debt repayments. I suspect they arent too displeased with current inflation eroding the debt.
But corporations need to pay their fair share and without more global cooperation that’s not going to happen - there are too many legitimate mechanisms to move capital offshore to the likes of Ireland, Cayman Islands etc. | | | |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 18:13 - Feb 16 with 683 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Corbyn not standing as a Labour candidate on 14:37 - Feb 16 by positivity |
voting for the greens is effectively letting in the tories in all but a handful of seats.
ideally we need pr, but in the real world this will take years to get in. until then we just need to get the tories out and keep the pressure on a labour govt.
"new" labour improved the nhs vastly, i'd prefer them to the tories every day of the week! |
But the problem is how they did it — specifically using PfI. This one of several long-term legacies of New Labour that is pretty awful - the organisation I work for is still tied into several eye-watering PfI contracts from that era.
It was quite clear under the last Labour leader that most of the New Labour mistakes not be repeated, but the current leadership is concerning to say the least. Housing is an area I have a particular interest in, and currently it's a policy vacuum (the shadow minister refused to answer questions I asked about whether Labour was still committed to abolishing RTB), and is worryingly being dominated by people like my local CLP chair who is effectively paid for by his property developer employers to campaign in their interests (he is one of the few non-Tories I have ever come across who seems to be actively opposed to council housing). |  | | |
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