| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist 14:13 - Mar 2 with 12935 views | giant_stow |
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-64824436
Assuming we're allowed to talk about this now the case has finished, finding her guilty seems harsh to me, let alone 3 years of prison. Partially sighted person gets cross at a cyclist on a pavement.... except no one seems to know if its a pavement or shared track. Isn;t the council ultimately at fault? |  |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 15:54 - Mar 3 with 1705 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 15:27 - Mar 3 by Ewan_Oozami |
How have we become such a vengeful society? |
Very odd response. As a few people, including myself, have said, if it were just shouting at someone - but then trying to help, being remorseful etc. then I doubt there would be any feeling of vengeance (and the sentence would seem harsh). Those factors can't be overlooked, however.
You can't just be aggressive to someone, causing their death, and then expect to get away with it. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 15:55 - Mar 3 with 1724 views | giant_stow |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 15:49 - Mar 3 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I'm not sure a short throwaway comment like 'she's not a lovely person' really answers all of those points, but there we are. You can't be arrested for simply not being a lovely person.
Regardless of whether or not you think she might have learning difficulties, the judge decided (after seeing all the evidence we aren't privy to) that they weren't enough to be relevant in terms of her sentencing. It seem like adding more in is just making excuses.
As I said at the start of this thread, my initial response to your OP was it seems a bit harsh. But then when I read the story fully - and all the facts - I could see why.
If I put myself in the shoes of the dead woman's partner I would certainly not want the person who caused her death, and then went grocery shopping, without any remorse, to get off with a suspended sentence. |
You misunderstand dolly - I go further that R and many of the others and question whether she should have been found guilty at all. That's because I believe there to multiple causes of the lady's death. You don't and that's fine - I accept my opinions the outlier here, but that may change if the case is appealed, which seems likely. | |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 16:01 - Mar 3 with 1687 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 15:55 - Mar 3 by giant_stow |
You misunderstand dolly - I go further that R and many of the others and question whether she should have been found guilty at all. That's because I believe there to multiple causes of the lady's death. You don't and that's fine - I accept my opinions the outlier here, but that may change if the case is appealed, which seems likely. |
Not sure I've misunderstood anything, and yeah, it's absolutely fine we have different opinions. I'm just stating my case/answering points.
I do wonder - and I'm laying myself open to be shot down here, but here goes anyway - if some of you are feeling a little more on the pedestrian's side because it's versus a cyclist. People really don't like cyclists, especially on here. And the fact that they were on a pavement (even though it was a shared cycleway) seems to have influenced people a tad. I might be wrong, but that's seems to be an unspoken part of all this. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 16:04 - Mar 3 with 1706 views | giant_stow |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 16:01 - Mar 3 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Not sure I've misunderstood anything, and yeah, it's absolutely fine we have different opinions. I'm just stating my case/answering points.
I do wonder - and I'm laying myself open to be shot down here, but here goes anyway - if some of you are feeling a little more on the pedestrian's side because it's versus a cyclist. People really don't like cyclists, especially on here. And the fact that they were on a pavement (even though it was a shared cycleway) seems to have influenced people a tad. I might be wrong, but that's seems to be an unspoken part of all this. |
There's the whiff of culture war again. All i can do is assure you that has nothing to do with my own thinking. I think this is a potential miscarriage of justice - nothing more, nothing less. | |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 17:36 - Mar 3 with 1635 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 16:04 - Mar 3 by giant_stow |
There's the whiff of culture war again. All i can do is assure you that has nothing to do with my own thinking. I think this is a potential miscarriage of justice - nothing more, nothing less. |
I can understand you feeling it's harsh, but miscarriage of justice?! Blimey. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 17:52 - Mar 3 with 1637 views | You_Bloo_Right |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 17:36 - Mar 3 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I can understand you feeling it's harsh, but miscarriage of justice?! Blimey. |
Not beyond the bounds of possibility I wouldn't have thought.
The judge appears to have potentially left himself open to rebuke and at least the sentence to review surely?
CCC could not confirm that this is a cycleway (so de facto it isn't presumably as CCC are responsible for such designations) neither could the police and yet the judge declared it to be so (it does appear to be mighty narrow for a shared cycleway/footpath). One might even think that such a direction from the judge may have swayed the verdict - a smart defence lawyer might run that line at least. |  |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 20:56 - Mar 3 with 1572 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 15:55 - Mar 3 by giant_stow |
You misunderstand dolly - I go further that R and many of the others and question whether she should have been found guilty at all. That's because I believe there to multiple causes of the lady's death. You don't and that's fine - I accept my opinions the outlier here, but that may change if the case is appealed, which seems likely. |
There are multiple causes to the cyclist's death. However, the primary factor in it is a pedestrian who has chosen to act in a way that has caused all of those other factors to lead to her death. It is clear that a jury have been convinced that the threshold of proof that this amounted to manslaughter has been met. I find it remarkable that many are questioning that.
Once convicted by the jury, I cannot see how the extenuating circumstances that show the pedestrian to have an extraordinary level of tolerance to the outcome should lead to a custodial sentence. Maybe that is seen as vengeful but it is the very basis of our criminal justice system. If it is wrong to avenge criminal acts, we should disband the courts and empty the prisons.
The factor that has also been introduced and appears not to have been considered from the media reports, is the disability of the pedestrian. If this has not been considered in sentencing, then it may well be on appeal. It may well have already been considered, though. |  |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 21:02 - Mar 3 with 1563 views | stonojnr |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 14:49 - Mar 3 by Ryorry |
As I said before, *a suspended sentence is a custodial sentence*. It’s simply suspended - a “sword of Damocles” hanging over someone if you like.
Some people appear not to understand the law on this, but it’s very clear. |
well you can keep believing that, but ultimately the one person who really does understand the law, because thats their job, is the judge in this case, and they concluded it warranted prison, not a suspended sentence. |  | | |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 22:18 - Mar 3 with 1503 views | Ryorry |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 21:02 - Mar 3 by stonojnr |
well you can keep believing that, but ultimately the one person who really does understand the law, because thats their job, is the judge in this case, and they concluded it warranted prison, not a suspended sentence. |
So you think every judge in UK history has always been right, and there have never been any miscarriages of justice or sentences successfully appealed against then … |  |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 23:21 - Mar 3 with 1431 views | MattinLondon |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 13:14 - Mar 3 by giant_stow |
I'm sure they're all desperate and destroyed, but that doesn't mean that the pedestrian caused the lady's death, or at least not solely. |
I haven’t read all of the thread so this question might well have been asked and indeed answered - would you be as sympathetic if the pedestrian was 18, male and had shouted continued vile abuse at the cyclist? |  | | |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 23:38 - Mar 3 with 1416 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 22:18 - Mar 3 by Ryorry |
So you think every judge in UK history has always been right, and there have never been any miscarriages of justice or sentences successfully appealed against then … |
What a daft point that is. By that logic everyone should be let off. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 23:51 - Mar 3 with 1423 views | rkc123 |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 22:18 - Mar 3 by Ryorry |
So you think every judge in UK history has always been right, and there have never been any miscarriages of justice or sentences successfully appealed against then … |
My default position would be to respect the decision of an experienced judge and the jurors who had the full details of the case, certainly over the opinions formed from reading an article on BBC news.
To be honest I don't really see how there are two opinions on this, perhaps some question over the length of sentence, but that's more a general point of whether prison is ever right purely as punishment, as opposed to protecting the public. As someone said above, I do think the fact the victim was on a bike is effecting the views of some; if the two people in this instance had both been on foot, and the aggressor randomly shouted at and erratically gestured towards the elderly woman, causing her to step back and trip in to the path of an oncoming car, I don't think there would be any question of her guilt, particularly given her actions in the aftermath of what happened. | | | |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 11:19 - Mar 4 with 1244 views | Ryorry |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 23:21 - Mar 3 by MattinLondon |
I haven’t read all of the thread so this question might well have been asked and indeed answered - would you be as sympathetic if the pedestrian was 18, male and had shouted continued vile abuse at the cyclist? |
I certainly haven’t been “sympathetic” to the defendant, I’ve simply taken the circumstances and her disabilities into account and concluded that the sentence was incredibly harsh.
In answer to your question, yes, I’d have arrived at the same conclusion had he had the same disabilities that the defendant had. | |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 12:05 - Mar 4 with 1205 views | giant_stow |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 23:21 - Mar 3 by MattinLondon |
I haven’t read all of the thread so this question might well have been asked and indeed answered - would you be as sympathetic if the pedestrian was 18, male and had shouted continued vile abuse at the cyclist? |
Absolutely yes (assuming the lad had the same conditions and it happened on the same spot of road). Her gender is immaterial. | |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 12:08 - Mar 4 with 1201 views | giant_stow |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 20:56 - Mar 3 by Nthsuffolkblue |
There are multiple causes to the cyclist's death. However, the primary factor in it is a pedestrian who has chosen to act in a way that has caused all of those other factors to lead to her death. It is clear that a jury have been convinced that the threshold of proof that this amounted to manslaughter has been met. I find it remarkable that many are questioning that.
Once convicted by the jury, I cannot see how the extenuating circumstances that show the pedestrian to have an extraordinary level of tolerance to the outcome should lead to a custodial sentence. Maybe that is seen as vengeful but it is the very basis of our criminal justice system. If it is wrong to avenge criminal acts, we should disband the courts and empty the prisons.
The factor that has also been introduced and appears not to have been considered from the media reports, is the disability of the pedestrian. If this has not been considered in sentencing, then it may well be on appeal. It may well have already been considered, though. |
I could just as easily say the primary factor in the sad death was the road layout, or lack of cycling ability of the rider.
The legal system has got lots of things wrong before so given the facts and the importance of the video, I'm not prepared to give it the benefit of the doubt here. Saying that, I appreciate I'm an ignorant layman, but we'll see what the pros make of it in due course. | |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 12:25 - Mar 4 with 1188 views | Ryorry |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 12:08 - Mar 4 by giant_stow |
I could just as easily say the primary factor in the sad death was the road layout, or lack of cycling ability of the rider.
The legal system has got lots of things wrong before so given the facts and the importance of the video, I'm not prepared to give it the benefit of the doubt here. Saying that, I appreciate I'm an ignorant layman, but we'll see what the pros make of it in due course. |
Not going to re-read entire thread as I’m on my phone, but iirc, everyone who has commented on the path layout has said how poor/inadequate/dangerous it is - clearly it was a major factor in the incident, yet the council seems to have escaped without any examination, investigation or penalty - another reason I came to the conclusion that I did. | |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 13:30 - Mar 4 with 1149 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 12:08 - Mar 4 by giant_stow |
I could just as easily say the primary factor in the sad death was the road layout, or lack of cycling ability of the rider.
The legal system has got lots of things wrong before so given the facts and the importance of the video, I'm not prepared to give it the benefit of the doubt here. Saying that, I appreciate I'm an ignorant layman, but we'll see what the pros make of it in due course. |
But you cannot. Those things alone did not cause her death. She fell off because se was forced to change direction dramatically.
It is clear the pedestrian has an intense disliking for the victim (presumably due to her cycling on the path which the pedestrian has decided is a worse crime than forcing her off the path to her death). She didn't intend for the cyclist to die but she clearly didn't care when that was the outcome. | |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 13:49 - Mar 4 with 1135 views | giant_stow |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 13:30 - Mar 4 by Nthsuffolkblue |
But you cannot. Those things alone did not cause her death. She fell off because se was forced to change direction dramatically.
It is clear the pedestrian has an intense disliking for the victim (presumably due to her cycling on the path which the pedestrian has decided is a worse crime than forcing her off the path to her death). She didn't intend for the cyclist to die but she clearly didn't care when that was the outcome. |
I think you demonstratte how open to interpretation this whole thing is. I would say the rider wasn't forced off - she could have stopped completely or swerved the other way to the inside. This is one of the factors which makes it an accident.
I also don't think it's clear the pedestrian had an intense dislike for the victim - that's again your interpretation - as is your implication that rhe pedestrian made a calculation about the worse crime was. How can you possibly put yourself in that troubled mind and *know* all that?! [Post edited 4 Mar 2023 13:50]
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 14:37 - Mar 4 with 1109 views | dissboy2 |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 23:38 - Mar 3 by The_Flashing_Smile |
What a daft point that is. By that logic everyone should be let off. |
how old are you, six? | | | |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 18:40 - Mar 8 with 895 views | Whos_blue |
Cheers BL.
Really interesting read.
There is also a link to the judge's direction to the jury.
An equally interesting read.
It doesn't change my mind on this apparently devisive matter.
A tragedy for all concerned, not least the loved ones of the deceased, but for me, all things considered, the right verdict was reached. |  |
| Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness. |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 18:52 - Mar 8 with 872 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 15:54 - Mar 3 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Very odd response. As a few people, including myself, have said, if it were just shouting at someone - but then trying to help, being remorseful etc. then I doubt there would be any feeling of vengeance (and the sentence would seem harsh). Those factors can't be overlooked, however.
You can't just be aggressive to someone, causing their death, and then expect to get away with it. |
I wasn't expecting her to "get away with it" - just for the judge to show a bit more humanity in his sentencing...
Edit: In fact having read the judge's reasoning as linked above, I see no reason to change my mind about the harshness of the sentence (although as he said, there are guidelines he has to follow) [Post edited 8 Mar 2023 18:58]
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 21:08 - Mar 8 with 807 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 18:52 - Mar 8 by Ewan_Oozami |
I wasn't expecting her to "get away with it" - just for the judge to show a bit more humanity in his sentencing...
Edit: In fact having read the judge's reasoning as linked above, I see no reason to change my mind about the harshness of the sentence (although as he said, there are guidelines he has to follow) [Post edited 8 Mar 2023 18:58]
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Exactly. Judges follow sentencing guidelines. If you think the sentence is wrong, it is the law and penalty for manslaughter you are at odds with. | |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 08:22 - Mar 9 with 715 views | giant_stow |
Thanks Lagos, fascinating. Its not really changed my mind either, but no point repeating stuff. | |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 09:03 - Mar 9 with 692 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 18:52 - Mar 8 by Ewan_Oozami |
I wasn't expecting her to "get away with it" - just for the judge to show a bit more humanity in his sentencing...
Edit: In fact having read the judge's reasoning as linked above, I see no reason to change my mind about the harshness of the sentence (although as he said, there are guidelines he has to follow) [Post edited 8 Mar 2023 18:58]
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You said, "How have we become such a vengeful society?" Surely the judge giving any kind of sentence is at least in part vengeful?
I'm astonished that having read the judge's report you and Ulla still see no reason to change your mind about the harshness of the sentence.
'You were convicted unanimously by the jury."
"The footage shows you shouting aggressively and waving your left arm. You do not stop, slow down or move to one side. You are territorial about the pavement and not worried for your own safety."
"He (witness, William Walker) said that you and Mrs Ward appeared to have come to a halt in front of each other and you made a lateral sweeping movement with your left arm which was directed at Mrs Ward. He said “it either made contact or she recoiled and fell”."
"After careful thought, I concluded these actions are not explained by your disabilities."
"I am sure you knew cyclists used that path and you were not taken by surprise or in fear for your safety."
"visual impairment was not a factor in this incident."
"As to learning difficulties, there are none"
I mean, it just goes on and on. There's really no need for me to post any more. It seems like whateverthe judge said you were going to stick to your position. I really find it unfathomable as to what I'm missing here, taken objectively. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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