| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs 21:00 - Apr 2 with 4053 views | noggin |
and JC losing the whip. He's just one of them isn't he? The public gets what the public wants. |  |
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| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 17:08 - Apr 3 with 1167 views | HARRY10 |
Ultimately the cause rests with voters. Some while back some numpty on here was defending those MPs with their snouts in the trough. 'Wouldn't you' was his idiot clam.
For too long Parliament has worked on the basis of trust. That no longer works, and MPs know many voters are too dumb to look behind the lies, so have pushed things to the limit.
We will only get better, when voters demand better. |  | | |
| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 17:11 - Apr 3 with 1175 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 09:49 - Apr 3 by Lord_Lucan |
I haven’t really given 2nd jobs much thought but I suppose yes, I guess they probably should only have one job …..
…….however I think MPs pay would need to be more realistic. |
What do you think is "more realistic"?
MP pay £84,144 pa plus expenses to cover the costs of running an office, employing staff, having somewhere to live in London or their constituency, and travelling between Parliament and their constituency. https://www.parliament.uk/about/mps-and-lords/members/pay-mps/
Doctor salary: £50,373 to £78,759. If you are a specialist grade doctor you'll earn a basic salary of £80,693 to £91,584. If you are a consultant, you'll earn a basic salary of £88,364 to £119,133 per year, depending on the length of your service. https://www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/explore-roles/doctors/pay-doctors
CEO of a non-profit organisation: base salary £46,821. Total pay £29k-£85k. https://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Job=Chief_Executive_Officer_(CEO)%2C_Non-Pr |  |
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| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 17:12 - Apr 3 with 1167 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 17:08 - Apr 3 by HARRY10 |
Ultimately the cause rests with voters. Some while back some numpty on here was defending those MPs with their snouts in the trough. 'Wouldn't you' was his idiot clam.
For too long Parliament has worked on the basis of trust. That no longer works, and MPs know many voters are too dumb to look behind the lies, so have pushed things to the limit.
We will only get better, when voters demand better. |
How do I vote for better? | |
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| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 17:15 - Apr 3 with 1133 views | HARRY10 |
| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 17:12 - Apr 3 by Nthsuffolkblue |
How do I vote for better? |
Demand better, were my words | | | |
| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 17:17 - Apr 3 with 1138 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 17:15 - Apr 3 by HARRY10 |
Demand better, were my words |
Excellent. I demand better. When do I get it? | |
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| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 17:22 - Apr 3 with 1109 views | HARRY10 |
| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 17:17 - Apr 3 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Excellent. I demand better. When do I get it? |
You might need to stamp your little foot a bit more | | | |
| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 17:56 - Apr 3 with 1110 views | DJR |
| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 17:11 - Apr 3 by Nthsuffolkblue |
What do you think is "more realistic"?
MP pay £84,144 pa plus expenses to cover the costs of running an office, employing staff, having somewhere to live in London or their constituency, and travelling between Parliament and their constituency. https://www.parliament.uk/about/mps-and-lords/members/pay-mps/
Doctor salary: £50,373 to £78,759. If you are a specialist grade doctor you'll earn a basic salary of £80,693 to £91,584. If you are a consultant, you'll earn a basic salary of £88,364 to £119,133 per year, depending on the length of your service. https://www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/explore-roles/doctors/pay-doctors
CEO of a non-profit organisation: base salary £46,821. Total pay £29k-£85k. https://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Job=Chief_Executive_Officer_(CEO)%2C_Non-Pr |
The MPs' expenses system was at one time in part designed to get round restrictions on how much their pay could rise. And it, for example, enabled second homes to be bought at the taxpayers' expense.
Whilst the system has been tightened in recent years following the expenses scandal, the recent news about Sue Ellen shows it can still be subject to abuse.
https://metro.co.uk/2023/04/03/suella-braverman-used-loophole-to-claim-25000-to-
Incidentally, a Cabinet Minister like her gets £67,505 on top of her MPs' salary. |  | | |
| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 18:13 - Apr 3 with 1076 views | HARRY10 |
| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 17:56 - Apr 3 by DJR |
The MPs' expenses system was at one time in part designed to get round restrictions on how much their pay could rise. And it, for example, enabled second homes to be bought at the taxpayers' expense.
Whilst the system has been tightened in recent years following the expenses scandal, the recent news about Sue Ellen shows it can still be subject to abuse.
https://metro.co.uk/2023/04/03/suella-braverman-used-loophole-to-claim-25000-to-
Incidentally, a Cabinet Minister like her gets £67,505 on top of her MPs' salary. |
I don't think expenses are the problem anymore. They were greatly increased by the mad woman (thatcher) in a nod and a wink to avoid MPs having a pay increase, 1985.
What is at fault is the view that MPs can only be stop from fraudulent activity by increasing their pay. As with an unemployed person who might shoplift.
The slur follows the lines frequently used by the Tories every time one of their lot gets caught
"they are all as bad as each other".
Nor are all Tory MPs to be fair. It's just in their case it is the 99% who give the !% a bad name.
It should be far easier to sanction an MP when they have done wrong....Oven Patterson. There is also a vast difference between porno pete the MP who resigned for looking at porn in the actually House, and a crook like Johnson, swearing an oath on the bible, yet then lying.
Firstly replace the supine Hoyle. Bercow was bringing in necessary reforms. Hoyle looks and acts like he is someone whose highest achievement in life is to hand out the hymn books at a minor state occasion at Westminster Abbey
But ultimately the responsibility lies with voters. | | | |
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| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 10:16 - Apr 4 with 1027 views | Lord_Lucan |
| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 10:11 - Apr 3 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
85 grand plus not having to spend any of it? How much do you think they should earn?
Besides which surely you want people who aren’t motivated by making money, and actually are doing it for the betterment of society? |
"Besides which surely you want people who aren’t motivated by making money, and actually are doing it for the betterment of society?"
We, my Nan devoted her life trying to make a betterment to society but I doubt she would have understood parliamentary procedure, in fact she struggled with her paperwork for her local chelmsford home help group.
I would say between £100k - £250k, but with PM getting maybe £500k |  |
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| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 11:05 - Apr 4 with 980 views | Mullet |
| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 10:16 - Apr 4 by Lord_Lucan |
"Besides which surely you want people who aren’t motivated by making money, and actually are doing it for the betterment of society?"
We, my Nan devoted her life trying to make a betterment to society but I doubt she would have understood parliamentary procedure, in fact she struggled with her paperwork for her local chelmsford home help group.
I would say between £100k - £250k, but with PM getting maybe £500k |
I think if that was taxed in line with the rest of us, expenses were completely scrapped, subsidies in the House etc. too, then it'd be fair enough.
The issue is less the amount, it's more the gravy train attached to it which is separate to try and obscure it from the debate.
The level of gluttony, lobbying and conflict of interest needs chopping out at the root as it is so bad and made worse by the way they've made the rest of us suffer.
Alternatively, party members could decide salaries based on performance and subsidise it over a fixed amount. That way people like Boris wouldn't have to be so dishonest to leverage money out of the dodgiest of sources to service his car crash private life etc. |  |
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| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 11:09 - Apr 4 with 960 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 10:16 - Apr 4 by Lord_Lucan |
"Besides which surely you want people who aren’t motivated by making money, and actually are doing it for the betterment of society?"
We, my Nan devoted her life trying to make a betterment to society but I doubt she would have understood parliamentary procedure, in fact she struggled with her paperwork for her local chelmsford home help group.
I would say between £100k - £250k, but with PM getting maybe £500k |
To be honest I think your Nan would still have done a better job than Boris… | | | |
| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 11:22 - Apr 4 with 918 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 17:11 - Apr 3 by Nthsuffolkblue |
What do you think is "more realistic"?
MP pay £84,144 pa plus expenses to cover the costs of running an office, employing staff, having somewhere to live in London or their constituency, and travelling between Parliament and their constituency. https://www.parliament.uk/about/mps-and-lords/members/pay-mps/
Doctor salary: £50,373 to £78,759. If you are a specialist grade doctor you'll earn a basic salary of £80,693 to £91,584. If you are a consultant, you'll earn a basic salary of £88,364 to £119,133 per year, depending on the length of your service. https://www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/explore-roles/doctors/pay-doctors
CEO of a non-profit organisation: base salary £46,821. Total pay £29k-£85k. https://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Job=Chief_Executive_Officer_(CEO)%2C_Non-Pr |
Why have you chosen "non-profit" for CEO? |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 11:30 - Apr 4 with 899 views | Darth_Koont |
| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 11:22 - Apr 4 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Why have you chosen "non-profit" for CEO? |
Probably more accurate for what is, after all, public service and from a limited budget.
What people earn in the private sector isn’t all that relevant or helpful. Unless we’re comparing MPs to others who also set their own remuneration and perks, and are now largely taking the p1ss. 🙂 [Post edited 4 Apr 2023 11:31]
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| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 11:43 - Apr 4 with 847 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 11:30 - Apr 4 by Darth_Koont |
Probably more accurate for what is, after all, public service and from a limited budget.
What people earn in the private sector isn’t all that relevant or helpful. Unless we’re comparing MPs to others who also set their own remuneration and perks, and are now largely taking the p1ss. 🙂 [Post edited 4 Apr 2023 11:31]
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How would you implement the sort of bonus system that profit-driven private-sector CEOs make a marge proportion of their money from? I thought it a fairer comparison if MPs are considered to be serving the country rather than profits.
So, doctors are in a service industry that is not supposed to be for profit and after much expensive training (which MPs don't need) and charitable CEOs who have worked their way to their position (which MPs often haven't either). What do Lucan and Flashing Smile think is a fairer comparison to base their £250k and £500k for the PM on?
Plus, I believe the Government should be doing more to discourage the sort of greed that lies behind some of the private sector bonus system. | |
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| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 12:55 - Apr 4 with 803 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 11:43 - Apr 4 by Nthsuffolkblue |
How would you implement the sort of bonus system that profit-driven private-sector CEOs make a marge proportion of their money from? I thought it a fairer comparison if MPs are considered to be serving the country rather than profits.
So, doctors are in a service industry that is not supposed to be for profit and after much expensive training (which MPs don't need) and charitable CEOs who have worked their way to their position (which MPs often haven't either). What do Lucan and Flashing Smile think is a fairer comparison to base their £250k and £500k for the PM on?
Plus, I believe the Government should be doing more to discourage the sort of greed that lies behind some of the private sector bonus system. |
I haven't offered any amount as an option. I'm simply thinking if you want the best people to run the country, then you have to pay them at least equivalent to what they might get elsewhere. Obviously in an ideal world they'd just choose serving their country for the love of it, but we don't live in an ideal world. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 13:05 - Apr 4 with 803 views | Radlett_blue |
Lammy claimed expenses for a second home despite living in a constituency less than half an hour from parliament by public transport. He has also been investigated for not declaring financial interests properly & claimed £230,000 in parliamentary expenses last year. A real man of the people. If he was a Tory, he'd be vilified & hounded out. |  |
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| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 13:10 - Apr 4 with 779 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 11:30 - Apr 4 by Darth_Koont |
Probably more accurate for what is, after all, public service and from a limited budget.
What people earn in the private sector isn’t all that relevant or helpful. Unless we’re comparing MPs to others who also set their own remuneration and perks, and are now largely taking the p1ss. 🙂 [Post edited 4 Apr 2023 11:31]
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It's totally relevant if that's where you're losing the best people to. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 13:34 - Apr 4 with 741 views | HARRY10 |
| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 13:05 - Apr 4 by Radlett_blue |
Lammy claimed expenses for a second home despite living in a constituency less than half an hour from parliament by public transport. He has also been investigated for not declaring financial interests properly & claimed £230,000 in parliamentary expenses last year. A real man of the people. If he was a Tory, he'd be vilified & hounded out. |
And what were those expenses ?
Staff wages, office rent, running costs, that's what
Found after a couple of clicks on the mouse
https://www.mpsexpenses.info/#!/mp/164
The second hoe was a flat he rented close to Parliament..... in 2004
Despite numerous clicks I can find no 'financial interest in property', but I am sure you can save me any further searching by posting up the link you have | | | |
| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 13:38 - Apr 4 with 743 views | Radlett_blue |
| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 13:10 - Apr 4 by The_Flashing_Smile |
It's totally relevant if that's where you're losing the best people to. |
There is a good argument that MPs are underpaid. Increasing their pay always causes a media storm - I don't know why it isn't simply linked to the pay of a certain grade of civil servant. Their solution has been to find endless expense loopholes, the second homes etc, which again makes bad headlines. So yes, pay MPs more & you might attract better quality, but we certainly don't need 650 of them, especially with many functions now devolved to the Scottish & Welsh Parliaments. So pay them 50% more but cut the number to 400 max. | |
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| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 13:46 - Apr 4 with 727 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 13:34 - Apr 4 by HARRY10 |
And what were those expenses ?
Staff wages, office rent, running costs, that's what
Found after a couple of clicks on the mouse
https://www.mpsexpenses.info/#!/mp/164
The second hoe was a flat he rented close to Parliament..... in 2004
Despite numerous clicks I can find no 'financial interest in property', but I am sure you can save me any further searching by posting up the link you have |
I think claiming expenses on a first hoe is pretty bad, let alone a second hoe. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 13:49 - Apr 4 with 722 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 13:38 - Apr 4 by Radlett_blue |
There is a good argument that MPs are underpaid. Increasing their pay always causes a media storm - I don't know why it isn't simply linked to the pay of a certain grade of civil servant. Their solution has been to find endless expense loopholes, the second homes etc, which again makes bad headlines. So yes, pay MPs more & you might attract better quality, but we certainly don't need 650 of them, especially with many functions now devolved to the Scottish & Welsh Parliaments. So pay them 50% more but cut the number to 400 max. |
I think the media storm is over the fact they hold down public sector pay rises aside from their own. I think there is a good argument for a grading for different public sector occupations and then any percentage pay rises to be applied equally across the board. The exception would then be to adjust (upwards) for (say for example) nurses' pay where an extra need becomes apparent or to show a Government that is really investing in the NHS.
Most people would have no issue with the above-inflation MP pay rises, if it wasn't for the repeated pay freezes on public service workers to then be followed by well-below inflation ones for them. | |
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| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 13:52 - Apr 4 with 711 views | HARRY10 |
| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 13:46 - Apr 4 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I think claiming expenses on a first hoe is pretty bad, let alone a second hoe. |
I think that was when Lammy was put on gardening leave | | | |
| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 14:06 - Apr 4 with 685 views | Churchman |
| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 13:38 - Apr 4 by Radlett_blue |
There is a good argument that MPs are underpaid. Increasing their pay always causes a media storm - I don't know why it isn't simply linked to the pay of a certain grade of civil servant. Their solution has been to find endless expense loopholes, the second homes etc, which again makes bad headlines. So yes, pay MPs more & you might attract better quality, but we certainly don't need 650 of them, especially with many functions now devolved to the Scottish & Welsh Parliaments. So pay them 50% more but cut the number to 400 max. |
I agree. However, Civil Servants on the same grades in different departments are not paid the same. My chum who worked for the Home Office doing a very responsible job on the same grade as me was paid £8k less. Pay for senior Civil Servants also varies. The highest paid person in HMRC 10 years ago was paid £249k. He was not the boss of HMRC.
However, I think Lucan’s guesstimate sounds about right to me, using public servants as a baseline which as a principle is sound. Expenses? Travel and accommodation, organised centrally (they can use the civil service system) and that’s that. They can use the same caterers in the HoC that operate the Treasury. The irony of that was that George Osborne refused to use it because he said it was too expensive.
650 is ok as MP numbers. With the population explosion in this country in the last 20 years you could argue 700 is more appropriate.
I’m not sure better pay = better quality. Fred Goodwin at RBS was paid a fortune and his performance was er… a tad lacking. Still the poor bloke paid for his ineptitude as he was left with a measly £340k pension and £2.7m tax free lump sum. Poor bloke. Imagine having to survive on crumbs like that? |  | | |
| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 17:37 - Apr 4 with 607 views | Lord_Lucan |
| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 14:06 - Apr 4 by Churchman |
I agree. However, Civil Servants on the same grades in different departments are not paid the same. My chum who worked for the Home Office doing a very responsible job on the same grade as me was paid £8k less. Pay for senior Civil Servants also varies. The highest paid person in HMRC 10 years ago was paid £249k. He was not the boss of HMRC.
However, I think Lucan’s guesstimate sounds about right to me, using public servants as a baseline which as a principle is sound. Expenses? Travel and accommodation, organised centrally (they can use the civil service system) and that’s that. They can use the same caterers in the HoC that operate the Treasury. The irony of that was that George Osborne refused to use it because he said it was too expensive.
650 is ok as MP numbers. With the population explosion in this country in the last 20 years you could argue 700 is more appropriate.
I’m not sure better pay = better quality. Fred Goodwin at RBS was paid a fortune and his performance was er… a tad lacking. Still the poor bloke paid for his ineptitude as he was left with a measly £340k pension and £2.7m tax free lump sum. Poor bloke. Imagine having to survive on crumbs like that? |
Wasn't David McGoldrick on about £1m when he was here?
Not sure what his expenses were though. [Post edited 4 Apr 2023 17:38]
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| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 17:48 - Apr 4 with 586 views | DJR |
| David Lammy defending extra jobs for MPs on 17:37 - Apr 4 by Lord_Lucan |
Wasn't David McGoldrick on about £1m when he was here?
Not sure what his expenses were though. [Post edited 4 Apr 2023 17:38]
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You make a good point. It's understandable that people get upset at what MPs and CEOs of large companies earn but, apart from the odd exception, it largely pales into insignificance when compared to what many footballers earn.
Frankly, I find it rather obscene, having grown up at a time when living in Capel St Mary was about the best a First Division Ipswich footballer could aspire to.
But I suppose one just has to put such feelings to one side.
EDIT: I may be misremembering, but doing Bob-a-Job in the 1970s, I'm sure I knocked on the door of Colin Harper in Broke Hall estate. [Post edited 4 Apr 2023 17:58]
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