| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me 19:33 - Jun 12 with 3443 views | WeWereZombies |
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-65882169
Accepted that the mother was circumventing the usual procedures and caused a distressing and ultimately fatal birth but the issues around her decision surely called for some clemency. Smacks of influence and pressure from United States based attitudes to me. |  |
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| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 19:41 - Jun 12 with 2555 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
She deliberately claimed to be fewer than 10 weeks pregnant knowing her child was within 7 weeks of being born! I struggle to see how that sentence is harsh. |  |
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| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 19:49 - Jun 12 with 2525 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 19:41 - Jun 12 by Nthsuffolkblue |
She deliberately claimed to be fewer than 10 weeks pregnant knowing her child was within 7 weeks of being born! I struggle to see how that sentence is harsh. |
It should also be noted that Stella Creasey who is quoted at the end is an advocate of legalising abortion up until birth. | |
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| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 19:53 - Jun 12 with 2495 views | MattinLondon |
I’m struggling to see what the prison sentence will actually accomplish. Her three children, who the judge has said are well looked after by her, will suffer. Especially the child with special needs.
I’m not advocating letting her off - some form of punishment is needed - but we jail far too many people in the country and this case will not benefit anyone. It’ll just hinder society. |  | | |
| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 19:57 - Jun 12 with 2473 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 19:53 - Jun 12 by MattinLondon |
I’m struggling to see what the prison sentence will actually accomplish. Her three children, who the judge has said are well looked after by her, will suffer. Especially the child with special needs.
I’m not advocating letting her off - some form of punishment is needed - but we jail far too many people in the country and this case will not benefit anyone. It’ll just hinder society. |
Whilst I get that our legal system could be better, would you feel the same had the child been many weeks premature and she chose to "dispose" of it at a few weeks old instead? In that instance, of course, postnatal depression could be a major factor and it wasn't here. | |
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| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 19:57 - Jun 12 with 2473 views | Mullet |
This is a minefield, ethically, emotionally and legally.
What she did was horrific, but it's hard to understand the place she was in. To be that desperate to do it suggests urgent mental health care and counselling is needed. She is a mother, she has dependents and would have known the implications and consequences.
I'm not sure how jail helps. The risk of reoffending is low. Clearly poverty was an issue given the living arrangements and situation forced upon her. I don't envy the judge in this instance as the law in question is archaic and not fit for purpose in this instance.
I can understand the jail term, but I'm inclined not to agree it's fair given the effect it will have had on her to feel she couldn't turn anywhere else. |  |
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| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 20:06 - Jun 12 with 2425 views | MattinLondon |
| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 19:57 - Jun 12 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Whilst I get that our legal system could be better, would you feel the same had the child been many weeks premature and she chose to "dispose" of it at a few weeks old instead? In that instance, of course, postnatal depression could be a major factor and it wasn't here. |
Just reading the few paragraphs of the article it’s clear that desperation clouded her mind. And whilst acknowledging what she did was totally wrong I still think that a jail term will offer nothing to her, her family as well as to society. | | | |
| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 20:08 - Jun 12 with 2413 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 20:06 - Jun 12 by MattinLondon |
Just reading the few paragraphs of the article it’s clear that desperation clouded her mind. And whilst acknowledging what she did was totally wrong I still think that a jail term will offer nothing to her, her family as well as to society. |
I get that. However, I also get that the severity of the crime has a large bearing.
Would you feel the same had it been post-natal instead of pre-natal? | |
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| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 20:15 - Jun 12 with 2387 views | MattinLondon |
| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 20:08 - Jun 12 by Nthsuffolkblue |
I get that. However, I also get that the severity of the crime has a large bearing.
Would you feel the same had it been post-natal instead of pre-natal? |
I think so, yes.
I can’t really comprehend the emotionally trauma that pregnancy brings to a woman and this includes before and after giving birth. My partner was lucky that she didn’t suffer from any mental health problems resulting from giving birth but I do know family friends who did.
I know that the above paragraph could well be clumsily written but I’m finding it hard to properly articulate. | | | |
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| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 21:52 - Jun 12 with 2214 views | BlueBadger |
No-one gains anything from jailing this woman. Bar maybe extremist pro-forced birth loons. [Post edited 12 Jun 2023 21:55]
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| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 21:54 - Jun 12 with 2200 views | BlueBadger |
| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 19:49 - Jun 12 by Nthsuffolkblue |
It should also be noted that Stella Creasey who is quoted at the end is an advocate of legalising abortion up until birth. |
The overwhelming,ing majority of terminations are pre-16 weeks. Anything to term would likely be in the 'truly exceptional circumstances' category(ie, something truly catastrophic which threatens the mother's life) and be legislation designed to protect clinicians undertaking lifesaving procedures rather than anything 'on demand'. [Post edited 12 Jun 2023 21:55]
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| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 22:09 - Jun 12 with 2154 views | wkj |
I am an advocate for pro choice but 33 weeks is 7.5 months - technically at this time a baby could be delivered prematurely with every chance of success.
Given the deception and the tremendous risks she took, I can't say I feel the jail sentence is unjust. |  |
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| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 22:10 - Jun 12 with 2144 views | Lord_Lucan |
We don't really know all the ins and outs do we, just a newspaper report, and on that basis, to be fair, I don't really have a valid opinion. |  |
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| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 22:15 - Jun 12 with 2115 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 19:41 - Jun 12 by Nthsuffolkblue |
She deliberately claimed to be fewer than 10 weeks pregnant knowing her child was within 7 weeks of being born! I struggle to see how that sentence is harsh. |
For when going through the trauma of an induced late term abortion is not enough! |  |
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| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 08:16 - Jun 13 with 1872 views | Steve_M |
It's probably important to separate the offence from the punishment here. On the balance of the evidence available it seems the woman did know how far advanced her pregnancy was and thus the guilty verdict is probably right.
However, jailing her for 28 months does not seem appropriate given the detrimental effect it will have on here other children, one of whom is apparently disabled. |  |
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| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 09:00 - Jun 13 with 1817 views | WeWereZombies |
| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 08:16 - Jun 13 by Steve_M |
It's probably important to separate the offence from the punishment here. On the balance of the evidence available it seems the woman did know how far advanced her pregnancy was and thus the guilty verdict is probably right.
However, jailing her for 28 months does not seem appropriate given the detrimental effect it will have on here other children, one of whom is apparently disabled. |
But even the offence is dubious - this morning we find that the prosecution came about through the use of the one hundred and sixty two year old Offence Against The Person Act. Some laws, such as those proscribing murder and rape, can have great longevity but there have been medical advances and changes in social attitudes since 1862.
However, the most surprising thing to surface today is an apparently decent Tory:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65886472 | |
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| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 09:02 - Jun 13 with 1809 views | chicoazul |
How old should babies be before mums can’t kill them? [Post edited 13 Jun 2023 9:02]
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| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 09:07 - Jun 13 with 1784 views | chicoazul |
| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 09:00 - Jun 13 by WeWereZombies |
But even the offence is dubious - this morning we find that the prosecution came about through the use of the one hundred and sixty two year old Offence Against The Person Act. Some laws, such as those proscribing murder and rape, can have great longevity but there have been medical advances and changes in social attitudes since 1862.
However, the most surprising thing to surface today is an apparently decent Tory:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65886472 |
It’s almost as if saying “all X people are Y” is really dumb and reductive isn’t it. | |
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| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 09:10 - Jun 13 with 1780 views | Ryorry |
| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 09:00 - Jun 13 by WeWereZombies |
But even the offence is dubious - this morning we find that the prosecution came about through the use of the one hundred and sixty two year old Offence Against The Person Act. Some laws, such as those proscribing murder and rape, can have great longevity but there have been medical advances and changes in social attitudes since 1862.
However, the most surprising thing to surface today is an apparently decent Tory:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65886472 |
"But he rejected appeals from women's health organisations to pass a non-custodial sentence, saying it was the court's duty to "apply the law as provided by Parliament"."
Judge could have suspended the sentence though (I think, where's Sparks when you needn him?!). |  |
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| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 09:16 - Jun 13 with 1766 views | Ryorry |
| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 19:41 - Jun 12 by Nthsuffolkblue |
She deliberately claimed to be fewer than 10 weeks pregnant knowing her child was within 7 weeks of being born! I struggle to see how that sentence is harsh. |
I take it you're a man who has never been pregnant, & consequently your hormones & emotions all over the place (a physically innate part of pregnancy, never mind all the other life circumstances). [Post edited 13 Jun 2023 9:17]
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| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 09:19 - Jun 13 with 1760 views | GlasgowBlue |
| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 09:10 - Jun 13 by Ryorry |
"But he rejected appeals from women's health organisations to pass a non-custodial sentence, saying it was the court's duty to "apply the law as provided by Parliament"."
Judge could have suspended the sentence though (I think, where's Sparks when you needn him?!). |
I’ve read words like ‘offence’ and ‘punishment’ but nobody has mentioned ‘deterrent’.
None of can claim to know the state of this woman’s mental health at the time she aborted her baby. But it was a baby. Not a foetus. A baby that if born at the time she aborted, could have gone on to lead a healthy life.
It may seem very cruel to imprison this lady, but as a deterrent it sends out a very strong message. And I’m completely gobsmacked to read one poster say that she should not have been imprisoned if she had taken the decision to kill her baby after birth. [Post edited 13 Jun 2023 10:21]
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| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 09:19 - Jun 13 with 1759 views | WeWereZombies |
| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 09:10 - Jun 13 by Ryorry |
"But he rejected appeals from women's health organisations to pass a non-custodial sentence, saying it was the court's duty to "apply the law as provided by Parliament"."
Judge could have suspended the sentence though (I think, where's Sparks when you needn him?!). |
In yesterday's story the judge was quoted as passing the opinion that he would have given a suspended sentence if the mother had initially pleaded guilty, but as she only later changed her plea to guilty he felt obliged to send her down. We would have to be privy to conversations between client and silk to know her reasons for the initial plea and the change but it is possible she is now inside due to a technicality. | |
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| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 09:25 - Jun 13 with 1731 views | Ryorry |
| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 09:19 - Jun 13 by WeWereZombies |
In yesterday's story the judge was quoted as passing the opinion that he would have given a suspended sentence if the mother had initially pleaded guilty, but as she only later changed her plea to guilty he felt obliged to send her down. We would have to be privy to conversations between client and silk to know her reasons for the initial plea and the change but it is possible she is now inside due to a technicality. |
Like you, my initial reaction on seeing the news on TV last night was shock, said "that's outrageous" at the jail term, and haven't changed my mind after reading the thread this morning.
Now can't help wondering if the sentence might have been different if the judge had been a woman who'd experienced pregnancy. | |
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| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 09:29 - Jun 13 with 1724 views | Ryorry |
| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 09:19 - Jun 13 by GlasgowBlue |
I’ve read words like ‘offence’ and ‘punishment’ but nobody has mentioned ‘deterrent’.
None of can claim to know the state of this woman’s mental health at the time she aborted her baby. But it was a baby. Not a foetus. A baby that if born at the time she aborted, could have gone on to lead a healthy life.
It may seem very cruel to imprison this lady, but as a deterrent it sends out a very strong message. And I’m completely gobsmacked to read one poster say that she should not have been imprisoned if she had taken the decision to kill her baby after birth. [Post edited 13 Jun 2023 10:21]
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Sentence is mitigated for other people who've committed crimes while "the balance of their mind was disturbed". | |
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| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 09:33 - Jun 13 with 1716 views | WeWereZombies |
| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 09:19 - Jun 13 by GlasgowBlue |
I’ve read words like ‘offence’ and ‘punishment’ but nobody has mentioned ‘deterrent’.
None of can claim to know the state of this woman’s mental health at the time she aborted her baby. But it was a baby. Not a foetus. A baby that if born at the time she aborted, could have gone on to lead a healthy life.
It may seem very cruel to imprison this lady, but as a deterrent it sends out a very strong message. And I’m completely gobsmacked to read one poster say that she should not have been imprisoned if she had taken the decision to kill her baby after birth. [Post edited 13 Jun 2023 10:21]
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Presumably the poster you are referring to is Chico's offhand, look at me, initial response (although his following post I read as a caustic support for the judgement.)
As far as deterrence (which I regard as almost as weak as a GJA as the lex talionis) goes the outcry that the judgement has caused shows a clear failure in that respect. | |
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| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 10:08 - Jun 13 with 1668 views | GlasgowBlue |
| A jail sentence seems way too harsh to me on 09:33 - Jun 13 by WeWereZombies |
Presumably the poster you are referring to is Chico's offhand, look at me, initial response (although his following post I read as a caustic support for the judgement.)
As far as deterrence (which I regard as almost as weak as a GJA as the lex talionis) goes the outcry that the judgement has caused shows a clear failure in that respect. |
No. Wasn't referring to Chico. It was an answer from another poster to NSB asking "Would you feel the same had it been post-natal instead of pre-natal"? | |
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