| I wonder if the UK and America... 13:55 - Oct 9 with 8546 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
...will offer to airdrop food into Gaza as well as offering Israel military assistance. |  |
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| I wonder if the UK and America... on 17:35 - Oct 9 with 3362 views | noggin |
| I wonder if the UK and America... on 15:10 - Oct 9 by Ftnfwest |
To thank them for killing a number of their citizens you mean? |
All the citizens of Gaza? |  |
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| I wonder if the UK and America... on 17:35 - Oct 9 with 3365 views | Rob88 |
I think Iran have been doing lots of helping already. |  | | |
| I wonder if the UK and America... on 17:44 - Oct 9 with 3336 views | Guthrum |
| I wonder if the UK and America... on 15:15 - Oct 9 by GlasgowBlue |
I would hope that the auK and US governments tried to persuade Netanyahu to stop this senseless and disproportionate response that will only lead to more innocent loss of life.
What the Israeli government is proposing to do is barbaric and constitutes a war crime. |
Wise words from Jeremy Bowen:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67050350?ns_mchannel=social&am |  |
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| I wonder if the UK and America... on 17:49 - Oct 9 with 3323 views | factual_blue |
| I wonder if the UK and America... on 15:35 - Oct 9 by giant_stow |
I think it might be 800 Israeli deaths now. You're right about the footnoting of Palestinian deaths. Right now, I think it's a response to the immediate horror of the Hamas attack and once the number is far higher, I'd imagine / hope the figure will get equal treatment. |
You'll be hoping in vain. |  |
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| I wonder if the UK and America... on 18:02 - Oct 9 with 3297 views | ibbleobble |
| I wonder if the UK and America... on 14:56 - Oct 9 by Cheltenham_Blue |
Didn't our press highlight it by reporting Israel's statement?
Let's get our ducks in a row shall we? Our press isn't the problem here.
The Israeli government is punishing innocent civilians for an attack on other innocent civilians.
Thats where the problem is. |
Isn’t the more deep rooted problem that there is a far right radical clinging to power against mass civilian protests and ongoing corruption investigations who has ‘allowed’ a terrorist incursion to massacre his own civilians and that Mossad and the CIA, the two most supremely funded intelligence agencies in the world have both failed…again!?
Mmm….now where have we seen this tried and tested playbook before…? | | | |
| I wonder if the UK and America... on 18:16 - Oct 9 with 3260 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| I wonder if the UK and America... on 17:20 - Oct 9 by Crawfordsboot |
No - our press simply reported what the Israelis said. They did not highlight that such actions, if taken against civilians, constitute a war crime. |
The press don't decide what and is not a war crime, thats the international court in the Hague.
I would hope that they confirm that a war crime has taken place, but until they do, the press cannot report it as a war crime. |  |
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| I wonder if the UK and America... on 18:22 - Oct 9 with 3229 views | BlueBadger |
From where I'm sat in my position of a fair amount of ignorance regarding the complexities of the whole Israel/Gaza thing, it strikes me that the whole thing is made even worse by both sides being led by incompetent violent extremists. |  |
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| I wonder if the UK and America... on 18:53 - Oct 9 with 3192 views | BlueBadger |
| I wonder if the UK and America... on 18:02 - Oct 9 by ibbleobble |
Isn’t the more deep rooted problem that there is a far right radical clinging to power against mass civilian protests and ongoing corruption investigations who has ‘allowed’ a terrorist incursion to massacre his own civilians and that Mossad and the CIA, the two most supremely funded intelligence agencies in the world have both failed…again!?
Mmm….now where have we seen this tried and tested playbook before…? |
Which conspiracist b0llocks are you alluding to here then? [Post edited 9 Oct 2023 18:57]
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| I wonder if the UK and America... on 18:56 - Oct 9 with 3175 views | GlasgowBlue |
| I wonder if the UK and America... on 18:02 - Oct 9 by ibbleobble |
Isn’t the more deep rooted problem that there is a far right radical clinging to power against mass civilian protests and ongoing corruption investigations who has ‘allowed’ a terrorist incursion to massacre his own civilians and that Mossad and the CIA, the two most supremely funded intelligence agencies in the world have both failed…again!?
Mmm….now where have we seen this tried and tested playbook before…? |
Have you been Reassigned to TWTD again as a punishment CIL. |  |
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| I wonder if the UK and America... on 19:24 - Oct 9 with 3150 views | ibbleobble |
| I wonder if the UK and America... on 18:56 - Oct 9 by GlasgowBlue |
Have you been Reassigned to TWTD again as a punishment CIL. |
Another acronym I don’t understand. A blessing I’m sure. | | | |
| I wonder if the UK and America... on 19:37 - Oct 9 with 3142 views | Clapham_Junction |
| I wonder if the UK and America... on 16:54 - Oct 9 by GlasgowBlue |
And before him Ehud Barak gave the biggest offer ever at Camp David. Offered the Palestinians 98% of what they wanted . Clinton was apoplectic when Arafat rejected it. [Post edited 9 Oct 2023 17:00]
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Barak was after Peres (Peres was in power in 1995–1996, Barak was PM from 1999-2001).
Olmert offered the Palestinians pretty much everything they could hope to get in 2008, even half of Jerusalem but Abbas got snotty about it because it didn't include a full right of return.
Netanyahu and Hamas have a symbiotic relationship - neither can succeed without the other as their bogeyman. Hamas got Netanyahu into power in the first place in 1996 by a carrying out a relentless bombing campaign in the build up to the election that Peres lost by just 30,000 votes, having started off miles ahead in the opinion polls on a promise to push forward with the Oslo peace agreement. |  | | |
| I wonder if the UK and America... on 19:46 - Oct 9 with 3119 views | Ryorry |
| I wonder if the UK and America... on 18:22 - Oct 9 by BlueBadger |
From where I'm sat in my position of a fair amount of ignorance regarding the complexities of the whole Israel/Gaza thing, it strikes me that the whole thing is made even worse by both sides being led by incompetent violent extremists. |
Not referring to the 'ignorance' bit (I think most on here are that given that the whole Gordion Knot of Israel/Palestine/Middle East generally must be top contender for the most complex, difficult, intractable issue in modern times) - but I'd say the rest is spot on.
The Palestine people are just ordinary people who want to simply live quiet lives - (as are also the majority of Israeli people, as are most other folk the world over). They're no more fans of Hamas than the rest of us.
Short of some kind of 'Arab Spring' type of uprising by ordinary Palestinians against Hamas, I don't see any solutions. There's no Mo Mowlam or Nelson Mandela quality stateswo/man around who'd have sufficient respect from both sides to lead negotiations, as far as I'm aware.
As for Israel being a democracy whose people could vote their leaders out - beware all advocates for any kind of PR (edit - by which I mean a carelessly chosen type of PR), because Israel's a "great" example of where that can lead when more moderate parties are held over a barrel by a tiny minority of fundamentalist extremists holding the balance of power. [Post edited 9 Oct 2023 19:56]
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| I wonder if the UK and America... on 20:01 - Oct 9 with 3076 views | Ryorry |
| I wonder if the UK and America... on 19:24 - Oct 9 by ibbleobble |
Another acronym I don’t understand. A blessing I’m sure. |
CertainIberianLady, last of several usernames of a poster notorious for posting controversial conspiracy theories, esp plots allegedly schemed by the USA & western allies.
I don't think you are her, fwiw. [Post edited 9 Oct 2023 20:02]
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| I wonder if the UK and America... on 20:08 - Oct 9 with 3041 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| I wonder if the UK and America... on 20:01 - Oct 9 by Ryorry |
CertainIberianLady, last of several usernames of a poster notorious for posting controversial conspiracy theories, esp plots allegedly schemed by the USA & western allies.
I don't think you are her, fwiw. [Post edited 9 Oct 2023 20:02]
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Obviously they're Paz...oh hold on, that's me! | |
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| I wonder if the UK and America... on 20:59 - Oct 9 with 3016 views | ibbleobble |
| I wonder if the UK and America... on 20:01 - Oct 9 by Ryorry |
CertainIberianLady, last of several usernames of a poster notorious for posting controversial conspiracy theories, esp plots allegedly schemed by the USA & western allies.
I don't think you are her, fwiw. [Post edited 9 Oct 2023 20:02]
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Ah OK, thanks. So the conspiracy theory klaxon has been sounded has it? Kind of odd in this context given that would be a favourable veil for Netanyahu whom I think we can all agree is a deplorable human being. Smoke screens have been used for generations now, so much so I think calling them conspiracies has become insulting to those afflicted by the perpetrators. Netanyahu’s supporters were using the exact same phrase in defence of his corruption charges only recently.
More to the point though, $5 billion in funding between the CIA and Mossad and Mossad were completely unaware of a co-ordinated massacre on their doorstep? This points to some systemic issues and failures still to be addressed in the wake of atrocities of this scale in recent memory and what’s the immediate response? Fight terror with terror even though history has taught us the mass suffer and very few prosper - and who will prosper in this instance?
I’m going to stick my neck out and say Netanyahu's religious-nationalist coalition will force through their judiciary reforms that would give the government sway in choosing judges limiting the Supreme Court's power to repeal new laws and they’ll do it while this fiasco perpetuates claiming some kind of national security mandate. I have expect we may see some favourable new laws enacted hastily on the back of that too - call it a conspiracy premonition. | | | |
| I wonder if the UK and America... on 22:10 - Oct 9 with 2948 views | DJR |
Interesting to see an Israeli woman on Sky, with a friend whose relative is being held hostage, obviously condemning Hamas but at the same time blaming Netanyahu for allowing this to happen.
The problem would appear to be that, in their desire to push through controversial constitutional reforms and the like against the wishes of many Israelis, the government has taken its eye off the ball when it comes to security, despite its strong rhetoric in this area.
The concern must be that Netanyahu, in order to make up for his failings, will completely overreact, with devasting consequences for the people of Gaza, half of whom are under 18. Indeed, the complete blockade seems just the start.
And this is what Human Rights Watch has to say on the blockade.
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| I wonder if the UK and America... on 23:13 - Oct 9 with 2862 views | XYZ |
| I wonder if the UK and America... on 22:10 - Oct 9 by DJR |
Interesting to see an Israeli woman on Sky, with a friend whose relative is being held hostage, obviously condemning Hamas but at the same time blaming Netanyahu for allowing this to happen.
The problem would appear to be that, in their desire to push through controversial constitutional reforms and the like against the wishes of many Israelis, the government has taken its eye off the ball when it comes to security, despite its strong rhetoric in this area.
The concern must be that Netanyahu, in order to make up for his failings, will completely overreact, with devasting consequences for the people of Gaza, half of whom are under 18. Indeed, the complete blockade seems just the start.
And this is what Human Rights Watch has to say on the blockade.
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I'm more of a browser than a poster on here recently, but I must say that you add a lot to the quality of debate on here - your apparent honesty, experience and eloquence really add to the site's wonderful diversity.
Thanks for your contributions. | | | |
| I wonder if the UK and America... on 23:19 - Oct 9 with 2845 views | Whos_blue |
| I wonder if the UK and America... on 16:10 - Oct 9 by pointofblue |
I was going to say I cannot see the current Israeli Givernment negotiating peace with Hamas, but I guess people said the same thing about Adams and Paisley. |
"Never. Never. Never"
Things can and did change. |  |
| Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness. |
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| I wonder if the UK and America... on 08:12 - Oct 10 with 2673 views | HighgateBlue |
| I wonder if the UK and America... on 22:10 - Oct 9 by DJR |
Interesting to see an Israeli woman on Sky, with a friend whose relative is being held hostage, obviously condemning Hamas but at the same time blaming Netanyahu for allowing this to happen.
The problem would appear to be that, in their desire to push through controversial constitutional reforms and the like against the wishes of many Israelis, the government has taken its eye off the ball when it comes to security, despite its strong rhetoric in this area.
The concern must be that Netanyahu, in order to make up for his failings, will completely overreact, with devasting consequences for the people of Gaza, half of whom are under 18. Indeed, the complete blockade seems just the start.
And this is what Human Rights Watch has to say on the blockade.
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That "human animals" is particularly disturbing. Without wishing to sound glib or facetious, we all know where that sort of rhetoric leads. It is awful to hear it from any politician, but from an Israeli government minister it is plain tragic.
I understand the need for western governments to condemn terrorism and jihadism, and the correctness in doing so. But they also need to speak out against the indiscriminate siege and the dehumanising rhetoric of this kind. At the very least, the USA should demand that nothing of this kind is said by Israeli government ministers if they want to keep receiving military aid. Any western government which is associated with this kind of thing should be ashamed. |  | | |
| I wonder if the UK and America... on 08:16 - Oct 10 with 2667 views | DJR |
| I wonder if the UK and America... on 23:13 - Oct 9 by XYZ |
I'm more of a browser than a poster on here recently, but I must say that you add a lot to the quality of debate on here - your apparent honesty, experience and eloquence really add to the site's wonderful diversity.
Thanks for your contributions. |
Many thanks for your kind words. My view is that things are never as black and white as the media or some posters on here would have you believe. And whilst I am of the left, I am not tribal or blinkered in my views, and realise there is a nuance to issues that often gets lost in the back and forth of political debate.
And following on from my mention of an Israeli who blamed Netanyahu, I have come across an editorial in Haaretz, a respected left wing Israeli newspaper, which takes a similar line.
Here are some passages from it.
"The disaster that befell Israel on the holiday of Simchat Torah is the clear responsibility of one person: Benjamin Netanyahu. The prime minister, who has prided himself on his vast political experience and irreplaceable wisdom in security matters, completely failed to identify the dangers he was consciously leading Israel into when establishing a government of annexation and dispossession, when appointing Bezalel Smotrich and Itamar Ben-Gvir to key positions, while embracing a foreign policy that openly ignored the existence and rights of Palestinians.
In the past, Netanyahu marketed himself as a cautious leader who eschewed wars and multiple casualties on Israel’s side. After his victory in the last election, he replaced this caution with the policy of a “fully-right government,” with overt steps taken to annex the West Bank, to carry out ethnic cleansing in parts of the Oslo-defined Area C, including the Hebron Hills and the Jordan Valley.
This also included a massive expansion of settlements and bolstering of the Jewish presence on Temple Mount, near the Al-Aqsa Mosque, as well as boasts of an impending peace deal with the Saudis in which the Palestinians would get nothing, with open talk of a “second Nakba” in his governing coalition. As expected, signs of an outbreak of hostilities began in the West Bank, where Palestinians started feeling the heavier hand of the Israeli occupier. Hamas exploited the opportunity in order to launch its surprise attack on Saturday.
Above all, the danger looming over Israel in recent years has been fully realized. A prime minister indicted in three corruption cases cannot look after state affairs, as national interests will necessarily be subordinate to extricating him from a possible conviction and jail time.
This was the reason for establishing this horrific coalition and the judicial coup advanced by Netanyahu, and for the enfeeblement of top army and intelligence officers, who were perceived as political opponents. The price was paid by the victims of the invasion in the Western Negev."
It is difficult to imagine such a view getting much traction in the UK media, so I have decided to sign up to Haaretz in order to get a more informed view of developments in Israel. I might add that puclic opposition to Netanyahu over the past year or so indicates in many ways a more thriving Israeli democracy than in the UK because, in contrast, attacks on the rule of the law and the right to protest by the Tories have been met with barely a whimper. [Post edited 10 Oct 2023 11:59]
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| I wonder if the UK and America... on 08:29 - Oct 10 with 2631 views | BlueOura |
| I wonder if the UK and America... on 14:56 - Oct 9 by Cheltenham_Blue |
Didn't our press highlight it by reporting Israel's statement?
Let's get our ducks in a row shall we? Our press isn't the problem here.
The Israeli government is punishing innocent civilians for an attack on other innocent civilians.
Thats where the problem is. |
A decent piece here in the Guardian that is very critical of Netanyahu. We need to see more of this and perhaps more importantly we need to see criticism from Western Governments as well. The Man is an absolute liability and very dangerous.
There is a real danger that the Israeli Government will use this situation to literally wipe out the civilian population of Gaza in the name of fighting terrorism. I really hope the World is not stupid enough to stand by and watch them do it.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/09/war-netanyahu-liability-mu |  | | |
| I wonder if the UK and America... on 11:01 - Oct 10 with 2509 views | WeWereZombies |
| I wonder if the UK and America... on 08:12 - Oct 10 by HighgateBlue |
That "human animals" is particularly disturbing. Without wishing to sound glib or facetious, we all know where that sort of rhetoric leads. It is awful to hear it from any politician, but from an Israeli government minister it is plain tragic.
I understand the need for western governments to condemn terrorism and jihadism, and the correctness in doing so. But they also need to speak out against the indiscriminate siege and the dehumanising rhetoric of this kind. At the very least, the USA should demand that nothing of this kind is said by Israeli government ministers if they want to keep receiving military aid. Any western government which is associated with this kind of thing should be ashamed. |
I was also disturbed by that when I read it, but not surprised. I always seem to get on well with Israelis I meet when I am out in the World travelling. However, as soon as I mention the revealing conversation I had with an English Palestinian on a flight to Jordan (I was off to walk in T.E. Lawrence's footsteps after an easy hotel transfer, he was unsure whether the two weeks holiday he had taken from work in Sunderland would be enough for him to get through Israeli security and be able to visit his parents on the West Bank) they just say something like 'these people are animals' and switch to a different subject. |  |
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| I wonder if the UK and America... on 11:56 - Oct 10 with 2440 views | Blueschev |
| I wonder if the UK and America... on 08:29 - Oct 10 by BlueOura |
A decent piece here in the Guardian that is very critical of Netanyahu. We need to see more of this and perhaps more importantly we need to see criticism from Western Governments as well. The Man is an absolute liability and very dangerous.
There is a real danger that the Israeli Government will use this situation to literally wipe out the civilian population of Gaza in the name of fighting terrorism. I really hope the World is not stupid enough to stand by and watch them do it.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/09/war-netanyahu-liability-mu |
I'm expecting to see large scale annexations in the West Bank in the name of security. It's been the stated aim of a the Israeli government, and they now have a pre-text to see it through. Hamas would have been aware that their actions would lead to this, but appear to me to be hoping that their actions will spark a wider conflict in the region, which really would be frightening. |  | | |
| I wonder if the UK and America... on 12:30 - Oct 10 with 2377 views | GlasgowBlue |
| I wonder if the UK and America... on 11:56 - Oct 10 by Blueschev |
I'm expecting to see large scale annexations in the West Bank in the name of security. It's been the stated aim of a the Israeli government, and they now have a pre-text to see it through. Hamas would have been aware that their actions would lead to this, but appear to me to be hoping that their actions will spark a wider conflict in the region, which really would be frightening. |
I’m guessing that you don’t see Hamas as a force for peace and social justice then? | |
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| I wonder if the UK and America... on 12:35 - Oct 10 with 2365 views | Blueschev |
| I wonder if the UK and America... on 12:30 - Oct 10 by GlasgowBlue |
I’m guessing that you don’t see Hamas as a force for peace and social justice then? |
I think they're reactionary religious fanatics akin to the Taliban. | | | |
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