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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? 19:54 - Nov 2 with 246681 viewsnoggin

Yeah but Owen Jones...
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 9:05]

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:05 - Nov 7 with 3199 viewsnoggin

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 07:20 - Nov 7 by Zapers

Maybe email Hamas, call them, or just go and visit them? Whilst you are in contact with them, ask them why they hide behind innocent Palestinians, and use them as human shields.

You might then find the reason that so many innocent people are being killed.


So if they were hiding behind YOUR children, you'd accept them being killed, or is it just Palestinian children you are ok with being killed?

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:06 - Nov 7 with 3190 viewsBuhrer

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 07:54 - Nov 7 by Darth_Koont

Don’t be silly. I’m allowed to post here because people can generally read better than that.

In any case, if you think you can bomb extremism into oblivion while doing the same to tens of thousands of civilians and forcibly displacing a couple of million more, you might not be thinking this through. But a lack of thought and certainly a lack of empathy seems to be part of the deal here.


There is obvious justification for the complete 'annihilation' of 'Hamas', the people that planned and carried out October 7th must be stopped, and I would expect that as a part of any negotiations and peace talks.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67321241
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:25 - Nov 7 with 3138 viewsNthQldITFC

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:56 - Nov 6 by Swansea_Blue

100% and not too dissimilar to what has been said on here in the main. And he’s right on the social media angle too. It’s becoming increasingly apparent that there’s a growing amount of polarisation on this. I’ve noticed it on here with people getting increasingly fractious, and I don’t know why. Is it social media narratives starting to take route? Take this thread for example, what’s there to argue over? I don’t see how hard it is to step back from all the noise and acknowledge that Hamas are murdering scum and Netanyahu’s regime are also murdering scum. Surely this is obvious and true?

Not that I know the answer, as it is incredibly complex. But hate and murder is only breeding more hate, so the current approach definitely isn’t the route to peace. And yet somehow Hamas does need to be dealt with. And so does Netanyahu. Dialogue is probably the only way, as uncomfortable as that sounds for those thirsting for revenge. The alternative is that one side has to be annihilated.


And the logical answer to your last sentence is that one side can never be annihilated in reality, because each side is more than individuals, more than a group of people, more than organisations and hardware and bank accounts.

Each side is a set of ideas, histories, beliefs, egos and stores of pain. Destroying the tangible bits only reinforces the intangible and your supposedly annihilated entity just comes back stronger next time.

Until there's a freely negotiated settlement (which imho has to be a two state solution with a large UN-enforced buffer zone) the leaders on both sides are just feeding the fire.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:26 - Nov 7 with 3130 viewsredrickstuhaart

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:25 - Nov 7 by NthQldITFC

And the logical answer to your last sentence is that one side can never be annihilated in reality, because each side is more than individuals, more than a group of people, more than organisations and hardware and bank accounts.

Each side is a set of ideas, histories, beliefs, egos and stores of pain. Destroying the tangible bits only reinforces the intangible and your supposedly annihilated entity just comes back stronger next time.

Until there's a freely negotiated settlement (which imho has to be a two state solution with a large UN-enforced buffer zone) the leaders on both sides are just feeding the fire.


Indeed. Martyrdom is a real thing, where religion is the bedrock.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:38 - Nov 7 with 3092 viewsSwansea_Blue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:25 - Nov 7 by NthQldITFC

And the logical answer to your last sentence is that one side can never be annihilated in reality, because each side is more than individuals, more than a group of people, more than organisations and hardware and bank accounts.

Each side is a set of ideas, histories, beliefs, egos and stores of pain. Destroying the tangible bits only reinforces the intangible and your supposedly annihilated entity just comes back stronger next time.

Until there's a freely negotiated settlement (which imho has to be a two state solution with a large UN-enforced buffer zone) the leaders on both sides are just feeding the fire.


Yep, although that won’t stop them trying. I wonder how many future Netanyahus the Hamas attacks have created, and likewise for Hamas recruitment. All thoroughly depressing.

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:44 - Nov 7 with 3062 viewsZapers

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:05 - Nov 7 by noggin

So if they were hiding behind YOUR children, you'd accept them being killed, or is it just Palestinian children you are ok with being killed?


Now you are being really silly. Every decent person, with or without children, knows what is going on is horrendous.

But you keep pointing out the horrors of war, but can't come up with an acceptable solution that will appease Israel.
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How many Palestinian and Israeli lives must be ruined and/or lost ? on 08:50 - Nov 7 with 3047 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:06 - Nov 7 by Buhrer

There is obvious justification for the complete 'annihilation' of 'Hamas', the people that planned and carried out October 7th must be stopped, and I would expect that as a part of any negotiations and peace talks.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67321241


It's a ridiculous statement in light of the murders at a music festival, isn't it ? Perhaps he thinks that having armed security there makes it legitimate to consider everyone present a 'conscript' ? Or perhaps he is just spouting propaganda to feed to extremists elsewhere and he knows it.

There again, having a peace festival that needs armed security is an indication of how bad things already were before the Hamas atrocity. My Tunisian friend described the awful time she experienced in Israel recently as one in a place where no one slept properly, everyone had bags under their eyes and no one gave an inch. I think she found my Western Isles gentility a bit amusing and told me that no one gave way in traffic or crossing the road in Israel. She derided my plans to visit Israel saying I wasn't mentally tough enough. And yet, despite the incursions, she had some sympathy for recently arrived settlers who had escaped antisemitism in Eastern Europe only to have to pretend that they had a wonderful future in such uneasy circumstances.

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:53 - Nov 7 with 3033 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:44 - Nov 7 by Zapers

Now you are being really silly. Every decent person, with or without children, knows what is going on is horrendous.

But you keep pointing out the horrors of war, but can't come up with an acceptable solution that will appease Israel.


I think you have to be really careful in using a concept like appeasement when you consider the history with regard to the Jewish people.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:57 - Nov 7 with 3011 viewsitfcjoe

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:56 - Nov 6 by Swansea_Blue

100% and not too dissimilar to what has been said on here in the main. And he’s right on the social media angle too. It’s becoming increasingly apparent that there’s a growing amount of polarisation on this. I’ve noticed it on here with people getting increasingly fractious, and I don’t know why. Is it social media narratives starting to take route? Take this thread for example, what’s there to argue over? I don’t see how hard it is to step back from all the noise and acknowledge that Hamas are murdering scum and Netanyahu’s regime are also murdering scum. Surely this is obvious and true?

Not that I know the answer, as it is incredibly complex. But hate and murder is only breeding more hate, so the current approach definitely isn’t the route to peace. And yet somehow Hamas does need to be dealt with. And so does Netanyahu. Dialogue is probably the only way, as uncomfortable as that sounds for those thirsting for revenge. The alternative is that one side has to be annihilated.


Yep, it seems that many people are able to view this from the Palesitinian side, but not from the Israeil side - they can see 'why' Hamas attacked because of the occupation but not why Israel are continuing to retaliate and why just calling a ceasefire is not acceptable to them.

Both leaderships are murderous scum, both have little regard for human life on either side (including their own), and one side is expected to give in to a murderous regime.

Peace is further away than it has ever been, and this suits the powers that be, it gives them a purpose and a bad guy

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:04 - Nov 7 with 3000 viewsnoggin

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:44 - Nov 7 by Zapers

Now you are being really silly. Every decent person, with or without children, knows what is going on is horrendous.

But you keep pointing out the horrors of war, but can't come up with an acceptable solution that will appease Israel.


Sorry, but your post seemed to indicate that you accept the murder of, to date, 10000 Palestinians because they may or may not have been used as human shields. The attacks by Israel are clearly not 'self defence' and they are clearly not interested in saving their citizens who are being held hostage. This is revenge and genocide and you are supporting it.
The bombing of Gaza is not eradicating extremism, it's promoting it's growth. Surely you can see that?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:43 - Nov 7 with 2932 viewsBlueschev

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:25 - Nov 7 by NthQldITFC

And the logical answer to your last sentence is that one side can never be annihilated in reality, because each side is more than individuals, more than a group of people, more than organisations and hardware and bank accounts.

Each side is a set of ideas, histories, beliefs, egos and stores of pain. Destroying the tangible bits only reinforces the intangible and your supposedly annihilated entity just comes back stronger next time.

Until there's a freely negotiated settlement (which imho has to be a two state solution with a large UN-enforced buffer zone) the leaders on both sides are just feeding the fire.


Without taking any sides at all here, a two state solution is totally unachievable. There are more than 700000 settlers in the West Bank, you think they'll just up and leave to accommodate a state they are ideologically opposed to? If any Israeli government was to attempt it (they never will) there would be a civil war. And that's before you even take in to consideration the Palestinians themselves.
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How many Palestinian and Israeli lives must be ruined and/or lost ? on 09:44 - Nov 7 with 2924 viewsRyorry

How many Palestinian and Israeli lives must be ruined and/or lost ? on 08:50 - Nov 7 by WeWereZombies

It's a ridiculous statement in light of the murders at a music festival, isn't it ? Perhaps he thinks that having armed security there makes it legitimate to consider everyone present a 'conscript' ? Or perhaps he is just spouting propaganda to feed to extremists elsewhere and he knows it.

There again, having a peace festival that needs armed security is an indication of how bad things already were before the Hamas atrocity. My Tunisian friend described the awful time she experienced in Israel recently as one in a place where no one slept properly, everyone had bags under their eyes and no one gave an inch. I think she found my Western Isles gentility a bit amusing and told me that no one gave way in traffic or crossing the road in Israel. She derided my plans to visit Israel saying I wasn't mentally tough enough. And yet, despite the incursions, she had some sympathy for recently arrived settlers who had escaped antisemitism in Eastern Europe only to have to pretend that they had a wonderful future in such uneasy circumstances.


I think Moussa Abu Marzouk may disinegenuously be using the mandatory military conscription of all young Israelis when they leave high school (32 months for males, 2 years for females) as his "reasoning". Many (but not all) then remain as reservists for several years.

It's to be noted that there have been a rising number of refusals to sign up by Israeli youngsters, as a form of protest.

Very interesting & enlightening view from "your own correspondent" on the ground there.
[Post edited 7 Nov 2023 9:46]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:45 - Nov 7 with 2919 viewsmatteoblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:57 - Nov 7 by itfcjoe

Yep, it seems that many people are able to view this from the Palesitinian side, but not from the Israeil side - they can see 'why' Hamas attacked because of the occupation but not why Israel are continuing to retaliate and why just calling a ceasefire is not acceptable to them.

Both leaderships are murderous scum, both have little regard for human life on either side (including their own), and one side is expected to give in to a murderous regime.

Peace is further away than it has ever been, and this suits the powers that be, it gives them a purpose and a bad guy


It is odd how people can defend the pogrom of October 7th. It is possible to justify an invasion, which always results in the loss of innocent life. But I've never heard a racist killing spree defended before. This is what is shocking.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:57 - Nov 7 with 2890 viewsRyorry

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 07:43 - Nov 7 by DJR

Netanyahu's words last night with respect to the post-conflict situation suggest that any prospect of a two state solution is gone for good. And Jeremy Bowen this morning indicated that all the Israelis he had spoken to now took the line that "it is us or them", suggesting that Netanyahu reflects the mood in the country.

And this is what he said about ceasefires/pauses.

“There’ll be no ceasefire, general ceasefire, in Gaza without the release of our hostages. As far as tactical little pauses, an hour here, an hour there. We’ve had them before, I suppose.”
[Post edited 7 Nov 2023 7:47]


Your last para suggests that there's wriggle room for negotiation by the Israelis. What better person than Obama (or maybe both Obamas) do you think there might be by way of negotiator to try & sort out this mess? Or if you don't think negotiation is realistic or possible, what alternative/s do you think there is/are?

Not that I'm expecting TWTD to be able to miraculously be able to resolve the situation!

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:58 - Nov 7 with 2890 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:45 - Nov 7 by matteoblue

It is odd how people can defend the pogrom of October 7th. It is possible to justify an invasion, which always results in the loss of innocent life. But I've never heard a racist killing spree defended before. This is what is shocking.


I haven't seen anyone defend the attack on 7.10. I have seen posters seemingly justifying the killing of Palestinians.
[Post edited 7 Nov 2023 9:59]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:01 - Nov 7 with 2871 viewsBlueschev

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:57 - Nov 7 by Ryorry

Your last para suggests that there's wriggle room for negotiation by the Israelis. What better person than Obama (or maybe both Obamas) do you think there might be by way of negotiator to try & sort out this mess? Or if you don't think negotiation is realistic or possible, what alternative/s do you think there is/are?

Not that I'm expecting TWTD to be able to miraculously be able to resolve the situation!


I think there's a huge amount of unwarranted hype surrounding Obama, possibly because of the moron who succeeded him. But I would ask people to point to any of his foreign policy achievements that would qualify him to mediate in this situation?
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:06 - Nov 7 with 2844 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:58 - Nov 7 by noggin

I haven't seen anyone defend the attack on 7.10. I have seen posters seemingly justifying the killing of Palestinians.
[Post edited 7 Nov 2023 9:59]


matteoblue might be speaking of people outwith the TWTD forum, i.e. the more extreme of the demonstrators on the streets of major cities.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:11 - Nov 7 with 2830 viewsRyorry

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:01 - Nov 7 by Blueschev

I think there's a huge amount of unwarranted hype surrounding Obama, possibly because of the moron who succeeded him. But I would ask people to point to any of his foreign policy achievements that would qualify him to mediate in this situation?


Qualifies as someone who's hugely respected for his fairness, calmness, rationality intelligence & thoughtfulness, as well as his promotion of humanitarian causes and social justice I'd say.

Those qualities shone out during his Presidency, and to a lesser extent still do through the projects he & Michelle are involved in now.

Commands world-wide respect as a result (albeit he inevitably has some detractors).

Maybe you could come up with alternative suggestion/s?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:20 - Nov 7 with 2818 viewsBlueschev

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:11 - Nov 7 by Ryorry

Qualifies as someone who's hugely respected for his fairness, calmness, rationality intelligence & thoughtfulness, as well as his promotion of humanitarian causes and social justice I'd say.

Those qualities shone out during his Presidency, and to a lesser extent still do through the projects he & Michelle are involved in now.

Commands world-wide respect as a result (albeit he inevitably has some detractors).

Maybe you could come up with alternative suggestion/s?


I don't think there's anybody in the world who could solve this human tragedy, it's gone so far now that it is totally beyond any control.

I don't dispute he is very eloquent, and he certainly portrays all of those qualities you list when he speaks. I'd say his actual achievements however are somewhat lacking, and I would question his popularity in Israel where his relationship with the government was never great, and the Arab world where US interference in Libya have contributed to it now being a failed state.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:39 - Nov 7 with 2781 viewsRyorry

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:20 - Nov 7 by Blueschev

I don't think there's anybody in the world who could solve this human tragedy, it's gone so far now that it is totally beyond any control.

I don't dispute he is very eloquent, and he certainly portrays all of those qualities you list when he speaks. I'd say his actual achievements however are somewhat lacking, and I would question his popularity in Israel where his relationship with the government was never great, and the Arab world where US interference in Libya have contributed to it now being a failed state.


That's too depressing for me, I refuse to accept there isn't a way out of it that isn't just millions of people continuing to be killed, threatened, and living in fear.

I said on another thread that maybe it requires an internal uprising, 'Arab Spring' style, but by the Israeli population, ironically, to get rid of Netanyahu & his far-right supporters.

Or as Bankster on another thread, ostensibly light-heartedly but I think actually with a kernel of truth, said - "give the women a chance". I strongly believe that all war is absolutely futile - no more than a terrible, unnecessary, laying waste of life, land, time & resources; that there is always a better way. And I think most females around the world feel the same.

Netanyahu & his hawks aren't exactly popular with Israeli women, and there were only 5/30 in his cabinet before the current coalition -

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-07-23/ty-article-opinion/.premium/israels-g
[Post edited 7 Nov 2023 10:46]

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 10:49 - Nov 7 with 2745 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:04 - Nov 7 by noggin

Sorry, but your post seemed to indicate that you accept the murder of, to date, 10000 Palestinians because they may or may not have been used as human shields. The attacks by Israel are clearly not 'self defence' and they are clearly not interested in saving their citizens who are being held hostage. This is revenge and genocide and you are supporting it.
The bombing of Gaza is not eradicating extremism, it's promoting it's growth. Surely you can see that?


Sorry. My downvote was a fat-fingered attempt to upvote this.

But agree entirely. The “self-defence” rhetoric can’t ignore the reality on the ground. Or even worse, can’t be used to dismiss the reality on the ground and the rights of a civilian population.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:51 - Nov 7 with 2733 viewsitfcjoe

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:45 - Nov 7 by matteoblue

It is odd how people can defend the pogrom of October 7th. It is possible to justify an invasion, which always results in the loss of innocent life. But I've never heard a racist killing spree defended before. This is what is shocking.


And Israel were being criticised before they had even retaliated, they didn't even have the weekend it happened where they were allowed to grief, by angry, be scared without a 'yeah, but....'

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 11:01 - Nov 7 with 2698 viewslowhouseblue

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 10:49 - Nov 7 by Darth_Koont

Sorry. My downvote was a fat-fingered attempt to upvote this.

But agree entirely. The “self-defence” rhetoric can’t ignore the reality on the ground. Or even worse, can’t be used to dismiss the reality on the ground and the rights of a civilian population.


all wars tragically involve civilian casualties. in terms of the usual discussion of what constitutes a just war the israeli actions certainly tick the self-defence box - the intent and capacity behind 7th october remains and rockets are still being fired at israel daily. but a just war also requires a realistically achievable war aim and for the actual human costs to be proportionate to achieving that aim. i think that is a far stronger criticism of current israeli action than denying their right to self defence. they can't realistically eliminate hamas other than in the very short term and the announcement today that israel will control security in gaza in the long-term is completely unrealistic.

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:07 - Nov 7 with 2664 viewsNthQldITFC

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:43 - Nov 7 by Blueschev

Without taking any sides at all here, a two state solution is totally unachievable. There are more than 700000 settlers in the West Bank, you think they'll just up and leave to accommodate a state they are ideologically opposed to? If any Israeli government was to attempt it (they never will) there would be a civil war. And that's before you even take in to consideration the Palestinians themselves.


If either side is not prepared to negotiate and compromise on territory, then they are choosing perpetual war.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:08 - Nov 7 with 2659 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:51 - Nov 7 by itfcjoe

And Israel were being criticised before they had even retaliated, they didn't even have the weekend it happened where they were allowed to grief, by angry, be scared without a 'yeah, but....'


Really?

This site has seen a decent exchange of views but I don’t remember seeing what you are characterising. What I have seen even on this thread is people dismiss caring about the Palestinians and the perilous situation they are put in by the Israeli response as not caring about Israelis and the massacre. In fact that seems a bit of a mantra for some.

Abhorring Hamas and the massacre is not mutually exclusive from being deeply concerned and now horrified by the reaction of extremists on the other side. In fact, I’m more surprised that the concern for both the Israeli and Palestinian victims and a need to stop the violence isn’t the unanimous view.

Pronouns: He/Him

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