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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 03:07 - Nov 17 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior
A look at comments and very open tweets from members of its agencies like the UNRWA on October 8th are quite telling.
You only have to look at the world today to realize it’s completely unfit for purpose and has been for sometime.
Don’t be silly.
The state of the world is much more dictated by how those with the most power in the world choose to use it. You only have to see how the US and UK in particular have fecked up in the Middle East over the past 20 years and longer to see where the problems come from. Or who our strategic partners are in the region, Israel and Saudi Arabia who aren’t looking for peace or justice but power on their own terms.
Putting that on the UN, who we and others don’t just refuse to back but actively block whenever it suits us, is ridiculous. Disparaging and trying to delegitimise UNRWA working in the oppressive refugee camp that is Gaza is also particularly low.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:06 - Nov 17 with 4188 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:36 - Nov 17 by Darth_Koont
Don’t be silly.
The state of the world is much more dictated by how those with the most power in the world choose to use it. You only have to see how the US and UK in particular have fecked up in the Middle East over the past 20 years and longer to see where the problems come from. Or who our strategic partners are in the region, Israel and Saudi Arabia who aren’t looking for peace or justice but power on their own terms.
Putting that on the UN, who we and others don’t just refuse to back but actively block whenever it suits us, is ridiculous. Disparaging and trying to delegitimise UNRWA working in the oppressive refugee camp that is Gaza is also particularly low.
You cannot mention instability in the Middle East without reference to Iran. Anyone with any serious knowledge or background in the region will know that in the last few years have been the biggest contributor to tensions and political risk. The problem is you lack any objectivity or pragmatism, and blaming the West is your default position. That certainly has some validity in the case of Israel and its various conflicts, yet often Iran is the spark, as it likely is in this latest tragedy. There’s a good chance they supplied the weapons may well have had knowledge of the Hamas attack (there are conflicting view on this) the Israeli deal on the table with Saudi is a huge coincidence in timing.
Iran are arming and controlling multiple militant groups in the region, they’ve supplied around 150k missiles to these groups, including many sophisticated and modern models. They are responsible for huge amounts of bloodshed in the Syrain Civil war training and arming insurgents. They are currently using their proxies to attack Israel from Lebanon and Yemen in a bid to stoke a regional conflict. They’ve conducted drone attacks in Saudi, as well as killing civilian mariners in attacks on shipping. Certainly I don’t believe ramping up alignment with Saudi is the way forward for the West, but Iran needs to be reigned in somehow if there is to be peace in the region.
[Post edited 17 Nov 2023 9:08]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:12 - Nov 17 with 4151 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:06 - Nov 17 by SuperKieranMcKenna
You cannot mention instability in the Middle East without reference to Iran. Anyone with any serious knowledge or background in the region will know that in the last few years have been the biggest contributor to tensions and political risk. The problem is you lack any objectivity or pragmatism, and blaming the West is your default position. That certainly has some validity in the case of Israel and its various conflicts, yet often Iran is the spark, as it likely is in this latest tragedy. There’s a good chance they supplied the weapons may well have had knowledge of the Hamas attack (there are conflicting view on this) the Israeli deal on the table with Saudi is a huge coincidence in timing.
Iran are arming and controlling multiple militant groups in the region, they’ve supplied around 150k missiles to these groups, including many sophisticated and modern models. They are responsible for huge amounts of bloodshed in the Syrain Civil war training and arming insurgents. They are currently using their proxies to attack Israel from Lebanon and Yemen in a bid to stoke a regional conflict. They’ve conducted drone attacks in Saudi, as well as killing civilian mariners in attacks on shipping. Certainly I don’t believe ramping up alignment with Saudi is the way forward for the West, but Iran needs to be reigned in somehow if there is to be peace in the region.
[Post edited 17 Nov 2023 9:08]
We are talking about the UN.
No question that there aren’t other bad actors in the region too. But we need to take responsibility for our actions and the actions of our allies that aren’t particularly committed to looking after people and resolving injustice. In fact, we generally put regional power and sphere of influence thinking way ahead of that, even putting civilians at greater risk and deepening or perpetuating injustices as a result.
[Post edited 17 Nov 2023 9:13]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:20 - Nov 17 with 4121 views
Rather worrying to hear a report last night on the World Service about disinformation in the current conflict.
Apparently there are a lot of social influencers, with no skin in the game, who are engaged in this (including using AI produced images and the like) with a view to raising their profile.
It's bad enough when disinformation comes from those on either side of the conflict, but doing it to raise profile is just sick.
[Post edited 17 Nov 2023 9:22]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:20 - Nov 17 with 4116 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:36 - Nov 17 by Darth_Koont
Don’t be silly.
The state of the world is much more dictated by how those with the most power in the world choose to use it. You only have to see how the US and UK in particular have fecked up in the Middle East over the past 20 years and longer to see where the problems come from. Or who our strategic partners are in the region, Israel and Saudi Arabia who aren’t looking for peace or justice but power on their own terms.
Putting that on the UN, who we and others don’t just refuse to back but actively block whenever it suits us, is ridiculous. Disparaging and trying to delegitimise UNRWA working in the oppressive refugee camp that is Gaza is also particularly low.
ho hum. as ever you are forcing current events into your preformed political agenda. anything that doesn't fit you ignore. it is blinkered, one-sided and intentionally naive. you do it to push an ideological narrative in which israel and its 'settlers' are the villains. it is blind to the complexity, history and reality of the region. the notion that hamas, iran etc are merely reactive / seeking peace and justice as a resistance against us / uk / israeli power and misdeeds is, as ever, complete bobbins.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:08 - Nov 17 with 4048 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:20 - Nov 17 by lowhouseblue
ho hum. as ever you are forcing current events into your preformed political agenda. anything that doesn't fit you ignore. it is blinkered, one-sided and intentionally naive. you do it to push an ideological narrative in which israel and its 'settlers' are the villains. it is blind to the complexity, history and reality of the region. the notion that hamas, iran etc are merely reactive / seeking peace and justice as a resistance against us / uk / israeli power and misdeeds is, as ever, complete bobbins.
Ho hum indeed.
Another day, another lowhouse dishonest defence of power and the status quo over people and the reality in the region.
Pronouns: He/Him
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:29 - Nov 17 with 3994 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:06 - Nov 17 by SuperKieranMcKenna
You cannot mention instability in the Middle East without reference to Iran. Anyone with any serious knowledge or background in the region will know that in the last few years have been the biggest contributor to tensions and political risk. The problem is you lack any objectivity or pragmatism, and blaming the West is your default position. That certainly has some validity in the case of Israel and its various conflicts, yet often Iran is the spark, as it likely is in this latest tragedy. There’s a good chance they supplied the weapons may well have had knowledge of the Hamas attack (there are conflicting view on this) the Israeli deal on the table with Saudi is a huge coincidence in timing.
Iran are arming and controlling multiple militant groups in the region, they’ve supplied around 150k missiles to these groups, including many sophisticated and modern models. They are responsible for huge amounts of bloodshed in the Syrain Civil war training and arming insurgents. They are currently using their proxies to attack Israel from Lebanon and Yemen in a bid to stoke a regional conflict. They’ve conducted drone attacks in Saudi, as well as killing civilian mariners in attacks on shipping. Certainly I don’t believe ramping up alignment with Saudi is the way forward for the West, but Iran needs to be reigned in somehow if there is to be peace in the region.
[Post edited 17 Nov 2023 9:08]
I don't think we can talk about the bloodshed and destruction in Syria without also including Russia as a perpetrator in its róle propping up the Assad regime. The seemingly ever improving relations between Iran and Russia as well as the supply of drones and the like for use in Ukraine is disturbing with regard to prospects for peace and makes Israel's occasional interactions with Russia even more perplexing.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:26 - Nov 17 by DJR
Those of you having a go at the UN should realise there is a difference between the Security Council (where there is often deadlock) and UN agencies which act independently and regardless deadlock in the Security Council.
Examples include UNICEF, the UN World Food Programme, UN Human Rights Office and UNWRA (which supports the relief and development of Palestinians). And don't forget that the Secretary General has been free to condemn what is going on in Gaza.
When it comes to the Security Council, the US has frequently vetoed resolutions critical of Israel. And when it comes to those that have been passed, Israel has ignored them, with the tacit acceptance of the US.
UNWRA and other organisations such as MSF and the International Red Crescent have been on the ground in Gaza for a long time before 7 October, but the unique thing about this conflict is that as the demand for their services has increased, their ability to function has been increasingly emasculated. This is in marked contrast to other war zones where conflict leads to increased aid.
And this is what the World Food Programme is saying.
The UN World Food Programme (WFP) has warned that the Gaza Strip now faces a “massive” food gap and widespread hunger while nearly the entire population of the Palestinian enclave is in “desperate” need of food assistance.
In a statement on Thursday, WFP executive director Cindy McCain said food and water supplies are “practically non-existent” in Gaza that “civilians are facing the immediate possibility of starvation.”
Yes. They all sit under the banner of the UN do they not.
So given what they’ve said. What are they going to do about it? By not doing something they are failing to act in accordance with their own founding charter.
And if the answer is they can’t because of a member veto then please refer to my previous post. It needs reform.
They’re good at talking, I’d never question that tbf to them as they are predominantly a talking shop after all. But if I’m starving to death in Palestine, or my family has just been murderously brutalised in Israel, talk doesn’t help me. In fact it does nothing. I need humanitarian supplies or I need my security to be ensured and they both need peace!
Should they solve the problem? In an ideal world, yes, but that’s not what we live in. Should they be a far bigger more relevant and active part of the solution, absolutely!
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:57 - Nov 17 by Rob88
Yes. They all sit under the banner of the UN do they not.
So given what they’ve said. What are they going to do about it? By not doing something they are failing to act in accordance with their own founding charter.
And if the answer is they can’t because of a member veto then please refer to my previous post. It needs reform.
They’re good at talking, I’d never question that tbf to them as they are predominantly a talking shop after all. But if I’m starving to death in Palestine, or my family has just been murderously brutalised in Israel, talk doesn’t help me. In fact it does nothing. I need humanitarian supplies or I need my security to be ensured and they both need peace!
Should they solve the problem? In an ideal world, yes, but that’s not what we live in. Should they be a far bigger more relevant and active part of the solution, absolutely!
[Post edited 17 Nov 2023 11:24]
What can the UN do that they are not doing now? Any humanitarian aid and intervention in Gaza is dependent on them. Even before the latest escalation.
Meanwhile, what can Israel and its strategic partners do that they are not doing now? Stop the bombing, killing and collective punishment of 2.3 million Gazans and allow aid along with basic necessities like clean water and food.
Everyone knows this which is why our previously total support is now more conditional and critical and before we inevitably call for a ceasefire ourselves. But what a horrific and unjustifiable cost to end up doing the right thing.
Pronouns: He/Him
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:05 - Nov 17 with 3804 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:20 - Nov 17 by lowhouseblue
ho hum. as ever you are forcing current events into your preformed political agenda. anything that doesn't fit you ignore. it is blinkered, one-sided and intentionally naive. you do it to push an ideological narrative in which israel and its 'settlers' are the villains. it is blind to the complexity, history and reality of the region. the notion that hamas, iran etc are merely reactive / seeking peace and justice as a resistance against us / uk / israeli power and misdeeds is, as ever, complete bobbins.
I'll let you two argue the toss here, but may I ask why you put settlers in quotation marks?
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:24 - Nov 17 with 3767 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:22 - Nov 17 by Darth_Koont
What can the UN do that they are not doing now? Any humanitarian aid and intervention in Gaza is dependent on them. Even before the latest escalation.
Meanwhile, what can Israel and its strategic partners do that they are not doing now? Stop the bombing, killing and collective punishment of 2.3 million Gazans and allow aid along with basic necessities like clean water and food.
Everyone knows this which is why our previously total support is now more conditional and critical and before we inevitably call for a ceasefire ourselves. But what a horrific and unjustifiable cost to end up doing the right thing.
What’s it done to date other than talk?
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:28 - Nov 17 with 3743 views
So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 18:14 - Nov 16 by GlasgowBlue
I was going to have a day off from commenting on this topic today but having read through the posts logged out, I had the misfortune of seeing Zombies awful "scepticism" around the Hamas rapes on October 7th.
I doubt he will read this on the antisemitic and homophobic Qatari state owned media that he is so fond of endlessly quoting, but there is first hand witness reports of rapes:
“I saw the Palestinians bending her down, raping her and simply passing her on to the next. She was alive when they raped her. She was on her feet and bleeding from her back. He pulled her hair. He shot her in the head while raping her, didn't even lift his pants. They cut her breast and played with it.”
BREAKING: Israeli police released testimony from a girl who survived the October 7th massacre: “I saw the Palestinians bending her down, raping her and simply passing her on to the next. She was alive when they raped her. She was on her feet and bleeding from her back. He pulled…
“There is evidence of mass rape so brutal that they broke their victims’ pelvis — women, grandmothers, children.
Disgusting that people are still doubting the scale of the atrocities committed on October 7th. But a timely reminder why I normaly ignore this poster.
“As if the rape against Israeli women does not count as rape”. Some call it Scepticism.
Disturbing content:
“ (It’s) as if the rape of Israeli women, does not count as rape.”
The United Nations and others have been silent about the sexual assault and gender-based violence Israeli women experienced on October 7.
The debate with some is littered with double standard and a complete blindness at times to reality. Israel and its allies are one side of this and of course they have responsibilities. On the other is Hamas and Iran, you don’t hear much criticism of them, from some you don’t hear any criticism of them.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:53 - Nov 17 with 3507 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:47 - Nov 17 by WeWereZombies
Exactly, what has the UN ever done for Gaza ?
Well apart from the food trucks, the fuel supplies, the medical teams, the temporary shelters...
Apart from that, what has the UN ever done for Gaza ?
From a personal point of view, the bulk of the UN should be separated from the Security Council. The Security Council is not fit for purpose and has not been for some time. It has not been able to lead on the Middle East situation and it was incapable of preventing Russia's invasion of another country's territory. Go back and also see the War in Iraq too. I wouldn't even say it's down to the power of veto which some countries hold; if that didn't exist the council would probably still be ignored when suited.
So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 14:56 - Nov 17 by Rob88
The debate with some is littered with double standard and a complete blindness at times to reality. Israel and its allies are one side of this and of course they have responsibilities. On the other is Hamas and Iran, you don’t hear much criticism of them, from some you don’t hear any criticism of them.
'On the other is Hamas and Iran, you don't hear much criticism of them, from some you don't hear any criticism of them'. This is absolute nonsense from you again Rob.
Everyone as completely condemned the sickening, abhorrent and unhuman actions of Hamas. On the other hand some on here seem quite happy to justify the killing of thousands of children by the Israeli state.
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So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 17:10 - Nov 17 with 3410 views
So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 14:56 - Nov 17 by Rob88
The debate with some is littered with double standard and a complete blindness at times to reality. Israel and its allies are one side of this and of course they have responsibilities. On the other is Hamas and Iran, you don’t hear much criticism of them, from some you don’t hear any criticism of them.
That’s not fair. Hamas have been widely criticised on here and often. Iran less so, but they’re not front and centre in the deepening humanitarian crisis. It’s likely there’s more cause to criticise Turkey and Qatar anyway, given they seem to have taken over as Hamas’ key financial donors.
So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 17:10 - Nov 17 by Swansea_Blue
That’s not fair. Hamas have been widely criticised on here and often. Iran less so, but they’re not front and centre in the deepening humanitarian crisis. It’s likely there’s more cause to criticise Turkey and Qatar anyway, given they seem to have taken over as Hamas’ key financial donors.
[Post edited 17 Nov 2023 17:13]
I can't see NATO member Turkey as a donor to Hamas, donating aid to Palestine, yes, but I would have to see some firm evidence from an independent source to be convinced of your assertion. All I can find recently is AlJazeera or a London based but Qatari owned alternative:
Elsewhere there are suggestions that Turkey is gearing up to accept Palestinian refugees, they do have recent experience of hosting large numbers of refugees.
So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 16:57 - Nov 17 by leitrimblue
'On the other is Hamas and Iran, you don't hear much criticism of them, from some you don't hear any criticism of them'. This is absolute nonsense from you again Rob.
Everyone as completely condemned the sickening, abhorrent and unhuman actions of Hamas. On the other hand some on here seem quite happy to justify the killing of thousands of children by the Israeli state.
Indeed.
And children are dying while opposition to it is being dismissed as anti-Israel or we’re being badgered that we don’t care about the 7th of October atrocities.
With all due respect to the people pushing their Netanyahuesque propaganda, they can feck off.
Pronouns: He/Him
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So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 19:46 - Nov 17 with 3263 views
So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 17:10 - Nov 17 by Swansea_Blue
That’s not fair. Hamas have been widely criticised on here and often. Iran less so, but they’re not front and centre in the deepening humanitarian crisis. It’s likely there’s more cause to criticise Turkey and Qatar anyway, given they seem to have taken over as Hamas’ key financial donors.
[Post edited 17 Nov 2023 17:13]
I wouldn’t be surprised if it is 10:1 (Israel/America/Britain/The West : Hamas).
There is no balance and there is certainly no reasoning with some.
[Post edited 17 Nov 2023 19:49]
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So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 19:51 - Nov 17 with 3253 views
So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 16:57 - Nov 17 by leitrimblue
'On the other is Hamas and Iran, you don't hear much criticism of them, from some you don't hear any criticism of them'. This is absolute nonsense from you again Rob.
Everyone as completely condemned the sickening, abhorrent and unhuman actions of Hamas. On the other hand some on here seem quite happy to justify the killing of thousands of children by the Israeli state.
Any evidence?
I don’t think reading and comprehension is a strong suit of yours. You don’t happen to be a ventriloquist do you?
Have a good weekend.
Final thought then I am clocking off. Do you think Ukraine should be resisting invasion from Russia as Ukraines decision to resist has led to Ukraine and Russian civilian deaths? Both are trying to ensure their continued existence and security.
[Post edited 17 Nov 2023 20:30]
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So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 21:40 - Nov 17 with 3184 views
“Dyksztejna’s testimony — reproduced in the next two paragraphs — is among the most harrowing I have read:
“In Kibbutz Be’eri, I witnessed bodies of two women with their hands and legs tied to a bed. One of these bodies we found was sexually terrorised with a knife stuck in her vagina and all her internal organs removed. After brutally violating these women, Hamas detonated the house on them, so we found them beneath a pile of stones.
“The mini shelters scattered from the Nova party site to road 34, shelters that had been broken into, were filled with piles of women. Their clothing was torn on the upper part, but their bottoms were completely naked. Piles and piles of women, dead bodies, lying this way. When you took a closer look at their heads, you saw a single shot straight to the brain of each.”
“Dyksztejna’s testimony — reproduced in the next two paragraphs — is among the most harrowing I have read:
“In Kibbutz Be’eri, I witnessed bodies of two women with their hands and legs tied to a bed. One of these bodies we found was sexually terrorised with a knife stuck in her…
So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 21:40 - Nov 17 by GlasgowBlue
“Dyksztejna’s testimony — reproduced in the next two paragraphs — is among the most harrowing I have read:
“In Kibbutz Be’eri, I witnessed bodies of two women with their hands and legs tied to a bed. One of these bodies we found was sexually terrorised with a knife stuck in her vagina and all her internal organs removed. After brutally violating these women, Hamas detonated the house on them, so we found them beneath a pile of stones.
“The mini shelters scattered from the Nova party site to road 34, shelters that had been broken into, were filled with piles of women. Their clothing was torn on the upper part, but their bottoms were completely naked. Piles and piles of women, dead bodies, lying this way. When you took a closer look at their heads, you saw a single shot straight to the brain of each.”
“Dyksztejna’s testimony — reproduced in the next two paragraphs — is among the most harrowing I have read:
“In Kibbutz Be’eri, I witnessed bodies of two women with their hands and legs tied to a bed. One of these bodies we found was sexually terrorised with a knife stuck in her…
Meanwhile, this morning, having ordered an entire population to leave half of their country, we have orders to now move "West of Khan Younis" So essentially 2 million people, in an area about 10km square. With no sanitation, no food, no water, no electricity, and no aid.
“Where hopefully there will be tents and a field hospital”. Are the aid fairies visiting?
“I’m pretty sure that they won’t have to move again” if they moved west, he said. Until its time to kick them out of Gaza altogether, assuming there are any left.
When do we start considering this a bit genocidey?
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So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 09:28 - Nov 18 with 2962 views
So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 09:22 - Nov 18 by redrickstuhaart
Meanwhile, this morning, having ordered an entire population to leave half of their country, we have orders to now move "West of Khan Younis" So essentially 2 million people, in an area about 10km square. With no sanitation, no food, no water, no electricity, and no aid.
“Where hopefully there will be tents and a field hospital”. Are the aid fairies visiting?
“I’m pretty sure that they won’t have to move again” if they moved west, he said. Until its time to kick them out of Gaza altogether, assuming there are any left.
When do we start considering this a bit genocidey?
Why are you replying to my post with what you have written? At best it’s Whatabouttery. You could have replied to any number of posts in this thread with your latest update yet chose to reply to mine.
My post was in direct response to somebody saying he was sceptical about the Hamas rapes. I posted first hand testimony.
Most decent people would read about rape and vaginal mutilation and react in disgust. Not post some Whatabouttery which a less generous person than I could interpret as justification for the barbarity against women that I described.
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