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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? 19:54 - Nov 2 with 257158 viewsnoggin

Yeah but Owen Jones...
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 9:05]

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So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 09:42 - Nov 18 with 3645 viewsDarth_Koont

So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 09:22 - Nov 18 by redrickstuhaart

Meanwhile, this morning, having ordered an entire population to leave half of their country, we have orders to now move "West of Khan Younis" So essentially 2 million people, in an area about 10km square. With no sanitation, no food, no water, no electricity, and no aid.

“Where hopefully there will be tents and a field hospital”. Are the aid fairies visiting?

“I’m pretty sure that they won’t have to move again” if they moved west, he said. Until its time to kick them out of Gaza altogether, assuming there are any left.

When do we start considering this a bit genocidey?


It got a bit genocidey when it was deemed acceptable to bombard an overwhelmingly civilian population and kill 160 children a day. So about 4 weeks ago.

This latest pressure is similarly callous in reality. And rightly rejected by all UN agencies because without their involvement to coordinate humanitarian aid and supplies it puts hundreds of thousands at greater risk:

https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/official-statements/iasc-statement-humanitarian-c

Pronouns: He/Him

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So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 09:43 - Nov 18 with 3639 viewsredrickstuhaart

So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 09:28 - Nov 18 by GlasgowBlue

Why are you replying to my post with what you have written? At best it’s Whatabouttery. You could have replied to any number of posts in this thread with your latest update yet chose to reply to mine.

My post was in direct response to somebody saying he was sceptical about the Hamas rapes. I posted first hand testimony.

Most decent people would read about rape and vaginal mutilation and react in disgust. Not post some Whatabouttery which a less generous person than I could interpret as justification for the barbarity against women that I described.
[Post edited 18 Nov 2023 9:39]


Its called adding to the thread. Stop being silly.
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So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 10:23 - Nov 18 with 3559 viewsSuperKieranMcKenna

So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 17:10 - Nov 17 by Swansea_Blue

That’s not fair. Hamas have been widely criticised on here and often. Iran less so, but they’re not front and centre in the deepening humanitarian crisis. It’s likely there’s more cause to criticise Turkey and Qatar anyway, given they seem to have taken over as Hamas’ key financial donors.
[Post edited 17 Nov 2023 17:13]


Turkey is not reported to be a key funder of Hamas, where did you get that from? I have some knowledge of geopolitics, but I’ve never heard that before. They have had diplomatic ties with them - meeting key figures, but there’s no widely reported source of funding. Qatar is their seat of power, and Iran as mentioned is the main supplier of weapons and ‘technical help’.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:31 - Nov 18 with 3508 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:05 - Nov 17 by Blueschev

I'll let you two argue the toss here, but may I ask why you put settlers in quotation marks?


It is unfortunate that you have not yet had an answer on this, not a big issue but an interesting one. To me there does not appear to be anything pejorative about the word at first blush. People come in , they settle, they settle down peacefully...one hopes.

There is another similar word, planter, which sounds like exactly what the Earth needs at the moment but if you have ever heard an elderly Irish woman spit out 'Planters !' with the full invective you might think them on a par with rapists and murderers. There is a history behind the word.

I do wonder if the image of settlers chimes with some Americans because they think of families busking across the prairies in their covered wagons to find a few acres where they establish their little house and dinky farmstead but the reality was very different for indigenous people of the First Nations pushed into reservations. Although I think there is a bit more space in those reservations than there is in Gaza.

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So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 10:48 - Nov 18 with 3467 viewsleitrimblue

So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 19:51 - Nov 17 by Rob88

Any evidence?

I don’t think reading and comprehension is a strong suit of yours. You don’t happen to be a ventriloquist do you?

Have a good weekend.

Final thought then I am clocking off. Do you think Ukraine should be resisting invasion from Russia as Ukraines decision to resist has led to Ukraine and Russian civilian deaths? Both are trying to ensure their continued existence and security.
[Post edited 17 Nov 2023 20:30]


Where to start Rob, where to start
Any evidence? What exactly are you looking for evidence for? That you and others have continually justified the killing of thousands of innocent children? Is your memory that bad? Perhaps just re read your own posts on this thread again?

On your final thought, I'm pretty sure you are not that dumb that you can't tell the difference from an aggressive invading force and a innocent invaded civilian population.

Unless perhaps you agree with the words of magic holy book and think that any people other then gods chosen people living in the promised land are an invasive force that needs to be driven out?
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So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 10:55 - Nov 18 with 3452 viewsSwansea_Blue

So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 10:23 - Nov 18 by SuperKieranMcKenna

Turkey is not reported to be a key funder of Hamas, where did you get that from? I have some knowledge of geopolitics, but I’ve never heard that before. They have had diplomatic ties with them - meeting key figures, but there’s no widely reported source of funding. Qatar is their seat of power, and Iran as mentioned is the main supplier of weapons and ‘technical help’.


It seems to be, unless I’ve got the wrong end of the stick. There are various mentions of it from a wide range of sources, but also a lot of uncertainty. I’m not able to validate the sources, but there’s a sample below from all sorts of different backgrounds.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_support_for_Hamas#:~:text=Turkey%20provi

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2023/10/25/hamas-funding-sanctions-treasury.html

https://www.meforum.org/65132/turkey-and-qatar-support-hamas-how-to-respond

https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20231014-qatar-iran-turkey-and-beyond-th

https://www.haaretz.com/2012-01-28/ty-article/turkey-may-provide-hamas-with-300-

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So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 11:12 - Nov 18 with 3415 viewsSuperKieranMcKenna

So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 10:55 - Nov 18 by Swansea_Blue

It seems to be, unless I’ve got the wrong end of the stick. There are various mentions of it from a wide range of sources, but also a lot of uncertainty. I’m not able to validate the sources, but there’s a sample below from all sorts of different backgrounds.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_support_for_Hamas#:~:text=Turkey%20provi

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2023/10/25/hamas-funding-sanctions-treasury.html

https://www.meforum.org/65132/turkey-and-qatar-support-hamas-how-to-respond

https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20231014-qatar-iran-turkey-and-beyond-th

https://www.haaretz.com/2012-01-28/ty-article/turkey-may-provide-hamas-with-300-


Interesting the Haaretz source seems to be the only one that suggests Turkey is providing funds directly (but I can’t read it all as it’s paywalled). The others largely allude to the political ties, or that funding is through private institutions in Turkey, rather than the state itself. I don’t think any of those suggest they’ve surpassed Iran in financial or logistical support.

That said, Erdogan seems to be a ‘playing both sides’ kind of guy judging by his dealings with Putin.
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So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 12:05 - Nov 18 with 3367 viewsWeWereZombies

So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 10:55 - Nov 18 by Swansea_Blue

It seems to be, unless I’ve got the wrong end of the stick. There are various mentions of it from a wide range of sources, but also a lot of uncertainty. I’m not able to validate the sources, but there’s a sample below from all sorts of different backgrounds.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_support_for_Hamas#:~:text=Turkey%20provi

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2023/10/25/hamas-funding-sanctions-treasury.html

https://www.meforum.org/65132/turkey-and-qatar-support-hamas-how-to-respond

https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20231014-qatar-iran-turkey-and-beyond-th

https://www.haaretz.com/2012-01-28/ty-article/turkey-may-provide-hamas-with-300-


One thing I think we can be sure of, as least if we can trust Wikipedia, OK fairly sure of, is that Qatar has a relationship with Hamas:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Qatar

Whether we can view Qatar as a Switzerland or Sweden type of neutral state (although both those countries neutrality in the Second World War is continually questioned) or just a necessary best of the worst when it comes to peace brokering is probably a matter of personal opinion and situation. Of course we have to remember who owns AlJazeera (the Qatari Royal family, a near absolute monarchy) when we go to it for news but some would say that the BBC is an organ of the United Kingdom's state functions, so caution and peer review as always when you read any news. I do find that AlJazeera get the verifable news faster than the BBC but I find their opinion pieces much more questionable (again maybe just down to my situation.) And as always there is an agenda, everywhere.

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So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 12:12 - Nov 18 with 3354 viewsredrickstuhaart

So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 12:05 - Nov 18 by WeWereZombies

One thing I think we can be sure of, as least if we can trust Wikipedia, OK fairly sure of, is that Qatar has a relationship with Hamas:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Qatar

Whether we can view Qatar as a Switzerland or Sweden type of neutral state (although both those countries neutrality in the Second World War is continually questioned) or just a necessary best of the worst when it comes to peace brokering is probably a matter of personal opinion and situation. Of course we have to remember who owns AlJazeera (the Qatari Royal family, a near absolute monarchy) when we go to it for news but some would say that the BBC is an organ of the United Kingdom's state functions, so caution and peer review as always when you read any news. I do find that AlJazeera get the verifable news faster than the BBC but I find their opinion pieces much more questionable (again maybe just down to my situation.) And as always there is an agenda, everywhere.


To juxtapose the BBC and Al jazeera in that way is pretty disingenuous.
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So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 12:18 - Nov 18 with 3313 viewsWeWereZombies

So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 12:12 - Nov 18 by redrickstuhaart

To juxtapose the BBC and Al jazeera in that way is pretty disingenuous.


But, as I posted, some would do so (but not me, I was anticipating one or two other posters 'yeah but Corbyn...sorry Johnson...sorry, Starmer' replies.) The follow on question is, which do you prefer, an absolute monarchy or a constitutional monarchy ?

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So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 12:20 - Nov 18 with 3323 viewspointofblue

So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 12:12 - Nov 18 by redrickstuhaart

To juxtapose the BBC and Al jazeera in that way is pretty disingenuous.


Worryingly I've spoken to some friends - very much not right wing - who have spoken about their concerns over the BBC's coverage, saying it's pro Hamas, stating the failure of the corporation to call them terrorists, misleadingly not including Hamas-led in early reports when referring to Gazan ministries and, most recently, Jeremy Bowen's piece to camera where he said the weaponry in the main hospital may be for defensive reasons. It does feel like views are becoming entrenched, and maybe I'm not completely surprised the BBC is caught in the response.

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So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 12:34 - Nov 18 with 3262 viewsGlasgowBlue

So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 12:20 - Nov 18 by pointofblue

Worryingly I've spoken to some friends - very much not right wing - who have spoken about their concerns over the BBC's coverage, saying it's pro Hamas, stating the failure of the corporation to call them terrorists, misleadingly not including Hamas-led in early reports when referring to Gazan ministries and, most recently, Jeremy Bowen's piece to camera where he said the weaponry in the main hospital may be for defensive reasons. It does feel like views are becoming entrenched, and maybe I'm not completely surprised the BBC is caught in the response.


The BBC have been appalling. Refusing to call Hamas terrorists

False speculation over the al-Ahli Arab hospital in Gaza.

Parroting Hamas propaganda with no checks.

Accusing the IDF of “targeting people including medical teams as well as Arab speakers” in Gaza’s Al Shifa hospital, when the Reuters report actually said "that IDF forces included medical staff and Arabic speakers for this operation”

And this latest piece of "reporting".

[Post edited 18 Nov 2023 12:38]

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So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 12:50 - Nov 18 with 3246 viewsWeWereZombies

So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 12:20 - Nov 18 by pointofblue

Worryingly I've spoken to some friends - very much not right wing - who have spoken about their concerns over the BBC's coverage, saying it's pro Hamas, stating the failure of the corporation to call them terrorists, misleadingly not including Hamas-led in early reports when referring to Gazan ministries and, most recently, Jeremy Bowen's piece to camera where he said the weaponry in the main hospital may be for defensive reasons. It does feel like views are becoming entrenched, and maybe I'm not completely surprised the BBC is caught in the response.


You had better add AFP (the World's oldest news agency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agence_France-Presse ) to those outlets you are concerned about:

'The first indications of a further evacuation this morning came from the AFP news agency quoting one of its journalists at the scene. He said Israeli troops ordered the evacuation of the hospital “in the next hour" over loudspeakers.'

From https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67446662 @ 10:50

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So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 13:00 - Nov 18 with 3227 viewspointofblue

So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 12:50 - Nov 18 by WeWereZombies

You had better add AFP (the World's oldest news agency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agence_France-Presse ) to those outlets you are concerned about:

'The first indications of a further evacuation this morning came from the AFP news agency quoting one of its journalists at the scene. He said Israeli troops ordered the evacuation of the hospital “in the next hour" over loudspeakers.'

From https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67446662 @ 10:50


Pedantic, but I think it's important, but these are the views of my friends rather than my own. I am concerned as I'd argue they are from the centre or centre left politically, so wouldn't expect them to have an agenda towards the BBC; not like those on the right. Yet they are claiming bias too. When there is a building mistrust towards neutral news organisations it can entrench biased news broadcasters, though I do think we as a country have been on shaky ground for some time.

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So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 13:08 - Nov 18 with 3180 viewsWeWereZombies

So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 13:00 - Nov 18 by pointofblue

Pedantic, but I think it's important, but these are the views of my friends rather than my own. I am concerned as I'd argue they are from the centre or centre left politically, so wouldn't expect them to have an agenda towards the BBC; not like those on the right. Yet they are claiming bias too. When there is a building mistrust towards neutral news organisations it can entrench biased news broadcasters, though I do think we as a country have been on shaky ground for some time.


Absolutely, but the torrents of disinformation run deep and I think the BBC do a decent job of clearing out as much Russian disinformation (and the like) as they can, which is perhaps why they tale a little longer than AlJazeera (usually to get to the same place, comforting or worrying ?) As far as Jeremy Bowen goes I think you have to remember he is trying to operate under a news blackout (mainly but not exclusively driven by the Israeli Defence Force) and that he has long experience (and much more knowledge about Middle Eastern affairs than we have.)

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So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 13:12 - Nov 18 with 3170 viewsSwansea_Blue

So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 13:00 - Nov 18 by pointofblue

Pedantic, but I think it's important, but these are the views of my friends rather than my own. I am concerned as I'd argue they are from the centre or centre left politically, so wouldn't expect them to have an agenda towards the BBC; not like those on the right. Yet they are claiming bias too. When there is a building mistrust towards neutral news organisations it can entrench biased news broadcasters, though I do think we as a country have been on shaky ground for some time.


It’s irrelevant where their political allegiances lie, because they seem to simply misunderstand how the BBC works. The BBC’s stance has frustrated the hell out of me over the years too, but it’s not bias. It’s the opposite; they’re trying to not be bias. They’ve always been that way.

The did screw up (massively) over the Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion, but apologised and covered the developing story responsibly eventually. That incident highlights exactly why they are so cautious.

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So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 13:21 - Nov 18 with 3139 viewspointofblue

So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 13:12 - Nov 18 by Swansea_Blue

It’s irrelevant where their political allegiances lie, because they seem to simply misunderstand how the BBC works. The BBC’s stance has frustrated the hell out of me over the years too, but it’s not bias. It’s the opposite; they’re trying to not be bias. They’ve always been that way.

The did screw up (massively) over the Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion, but apologised and covered the developing story responsibly eventually. That incident highlights exactly why they are so cautious.


Regarding the political point, if they were on the right I'd be more dismissive of their approach as my deep rooted feeling would be that they would be naturally critical of the BBC. For those to be on the centre left to do be doing this, perhaps rightly or wrongly, rings alarm bells.

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So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 13:41 - Nov 18 with 3095 viewsSwansea_Blue

So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 13:21 - Nov 18 by pointofblue

Regarding the political point, if they were on the right I'd be more dismissive of their approach as my deep rooted feeling would be that they would be naturally critical of the BBC. For those to be on the centre left to do be doing this, perhaps rightly or wrongly, rings alarm bells.


The BBC seem to be capable of peeing everyone off. It’s quite a talent!

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So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 15:23 - Nov 18 with 3021 viewsRob88

So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 10:48 - Nov 18 by leitrimblue

Where to start Rob, where to start
Any evidence? What exactly are you looking for evidence for? That you and others have continually justified the killing of thousands of innocent children? Is your memory that bad? Perhaps just re read your own posts on this thread again?

On your final thought, I'm pretty sure you are not that dumb that you can't tell the difference from an aggressive invading force and a innocent invaded civilian population.

Unless perhaps you agree with the words of magic holy book and think that any people other then gods chosen people living in the promised land are an invasive force that needs to be driven out?


I think you’ll be able to help me with this or noggin or Darth.

Just seen some pics of the current protests happening.

What has “socialist purity” and “socialist Intifada” got to do with all of this?

Socialist purity sounds a little Aryan race like to me, what do you think?
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So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 15:25 - Nov 18 with 3010 viewsnoggin

So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 15:23 - Nov 18 by Rob88

I think you’ll be able to help me with this or noggin or Darth.

Just seen some pics of the current protests happening.

What has “socialist purity” and “socialist Intifada” got to do with all of this?

Socialist purity sounds a little Aryan race like to me, what do you think?


I have no idea what you're trying to achieve here.

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So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 15:46 - Nov 18 with 2976 viewsRob88

So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 15:25 - Nov 18 by noggin

I have no idea what you're trying to achieve here.


Of course you don’t.

A better question would be what are they trying to achieve? Although it’s pretty clear from what’s written on their placards.
[Post edited 18 Nov 2023 15:47]
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So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 15:47 - Nov 18 with 2965 viewsnoggin

So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 15:46 - Nov 18 by Rob88

Of course you don’t.

A better question would be what are they trying to achieve? Although it’s pretty clear from what’s written on their placards.
[Post edited 18 Nov 2023 15:47]


Perhaps you'd care to explain.

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So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 15:48 - Nov 18 with 2961 viewsRob88

So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 15:47 - Nov 18 by noggin

Perhaps you'd care to explain.


Perhaps you’d care to answer the questions.
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So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 15:54 - Nov 18 with 2937 viewsnoggin

So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 15:46 - Nov 18 by Rob88

Of course you don’t.

A better question would be what are they trying to achieve? Although it’s pretty clear from what’s written on their placards.
[Post edited 18 Nov 2023 15:47]


How many of these placards did you see and in what size crowd? I haven't seen what you have so can't comment.

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So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 15:56 - Nov 18 with 2925 viewsnoggin

So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 15:46 - Nov 18 by Rob88

Of course you don’t.

A better question would be what are they trying to achieve? Although it’s pretty clear from what’s written on their placards.
[Post edited 18 Nov 2023 15:47]


As you're here, I assume you're an Ipswich supporter. What are your views of all Ipswich supporters if 2 are arrested for violent conduct?

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