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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? 19:54 - Nov 2 with 257319 viewsnoggin

Yeah but Owen Jones...
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 9:05]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:20 - Nov 21 with 2976 viewsDJR

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:25 - Nov 21 with 2951 viewsDJR

As someone who donates to MSF, this is particularly distressing.

MSF says its doctors were killed in strike on northern Gaza hospital

Doctors Without Borders (MSF) has said it is “horrified” by the killing of two of its doctors and a third health ministry doctor following what it said was a strike on Al-Awda hospital in northern Gaza.

The MSF doctors, Dr Mahmoud Abu Nujaila and Dr Ahmad Al Sahar, were in the hospital when it was hit on the third and fourth floors, the charity said in a statement. Other medical staff, including MSF staff, were severely injured, it said.

More than 200 patients are still in Al-Awda and must be urgently evacuated to other hospitals in Gaza that are still functioning, MSF said.

It said it has regularly shared information about Al-Awda – one of the last remaining functional hospitals in northern Gaza – and that it had shared GPS coordinates with Israeli authorities on Monday. The statement continued:

We condemn this strike in the strongest terms and yet again call for the respect and protection of medical facilities, staff and patients.

Attacks on medical facilities are a “serious violation of international humanitarian law”, it said, adding that such attacks have become “systematic” in the past weeks.

This is yet another incident that MSF staff have been subject to in the last few days. Our colleagues who are assisting hundreds of patients in Gaza are facing extremely difficult times in providing the little medical care they can. Seeing doctors killed next to hospital beds is beyond tragic, and this must stop now.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:02 - Nov 22 with 2778 viewsDarth_Koont

Great news about the temporary and conditional ceasefire. Let’s hope this will be extended by the further release of hostages.

My hope (perhaps in vain) is that the initial de-escalation will create a momentum towards peace — within the region and internationally. Clearly, not helped by both Hamas and the current Israeli government still as nominal leaders but we’re at least in a phase where less extreme and more humanitarian voices can be heard.

It’s a window for peace that we need to take advantage of and truly stand up for the Palestinian and Israeli civilians’ lives and futures.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:13 - Nov 22 with 2714 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:02 - Nov 22 by Darth_Koont

Great news about the temporary and conditional ceasefire. Let’s hope this will be extended by the further release of hostages.

My hope (perhaps in vain) is that the initial de-escalation will create a momentum towards peace — within the region and internationally. Clearly, not helped by both Hamas and the current Israeli government still as nominal leaders but we’re at least in a phase where less extreme and more humanitarian voices can be heard.

It’s a window for peace that we need to take advantage of and truly stand up for the Palestinian and Israeli civilians’ lives and futures.


Temporary ceasefire of 4 days being a pause. Which is what a lot I of people have been calling for and been shouted down when putting that view over.

Iron Lion Zion
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:30 - Nov 22 with 2693 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:13 - Nov 22 by GlasgowBlue

Temporary ceasefire of 4 days being a pause. Which is what a lot I of people have been calling for and been shouted down when putting that view over.


Which is why it’s only temporary until we can move to a permanent cessation and start focusing on the rights and needs of the civilian populations.

Are you now calling for that? Or do you want the ongoing slaughter of predominantly women and children to begin again?

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:31 - Nov 22 with 2678 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:02 - Nov 22 by Darth_Koont

Great news about the temporary and conditional ceasefire. Let’s hope this will be extended by the further release of hostages.

My hope (perhaps in vain) is that the initial de-escalation will create a momentum towards peace — within the region and internationally. Clearly, not helped by both Hamas and the current Israeli government still as nominal leaders but we’re at least in a phase where less extreme and more humanitarian voices can be heard.

It’s a window for peace that we need to take advantage of and truly stand up for the Palestinian and Israeli civilians’ lives and futures.


Two conflicting views of what might happen next, but if the second (quoting Josep Borell), there will be little of Gaza left standing, given 40% of buildings have already been destroyed. I would hope the former pans out, and I am not sure the US would want the second outcome which would destroy any hope of a viable Palestinian state in Gaza.

Reuters reports that in a statement carried on state media, Jordan’s foreign ministry said it hoped the four-day pause in fighting will allow much-needed humanitarian aid into the besieged territory, and would be a step that would end the war and prevent the targeting of Palestinians and their displacement from their land.

The Israeli military explained to us their plan to create a small safe area along the sea in the southern part of Gaza to concentrate there the civilian population in order to carry out ground operations in the south of the enclave. This did not reassure me about the future course of events, if we fail to achieve a rapid and durable de-escalation of the military operations.
[Post edited 22 Nov 2023 10:36]
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Has the Pope just called the Israeli Defence Force terrorists ? on 10:39 - Nov 22 with 2621 viewsWeWereZombies

'Pope Francis held separate meetings with Israeli families of hostages held by Hamas and Palestinians with relatives in Gaza.

He said the Israel-Hamas conflict had gone beyond war, becoming “terrorism”, and emphasised that “both sides are suffering.”

Speaking at his weekly general audience in St Peter’s Square, shortly after the meetings in his residence, the pontiff said: ”They suffer so much and I heard how both sides suffer.”

He added: "Please let us go forward for peace...My blessing goes to all."'

From https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67481139 @10:21

His message of peace is, of course, welcome but I worry that a fragile and lacking in statesmanship administration might react badly to this.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:41 - Nov 22 with 2601 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:30 - Nov 22 by Darth_Koont

Which is why it’s only temporary until we can move to a permanent cessation and start focusing on the rights and needs of the civilian populations.

Are you now calling for that? Or do you want the ongoing slaughter of predominantly women and children to begin again?


I think it’s long enough to get more people evacuated and humanitarian aid brought in to the people of Gaza but short enough that Hamas cannot re arm and plan another massacre along the lines of October 7th.

So I agree with you. It’s good news.

Iron Lion Zion
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:42 - Nov 22 with 2621 viewsStokieBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:31 - Nov 22 by DJR

Two conflicting views of what might happen next, but if the second (quoting Josep Borell), there will be little of Gaza left standing, given 40% of buildings have already been destroyed. I would hope the former pans out, and I am not sure the US would want the second outcome which would destroy any hope of a viable Palestinian state in Gaza.

Reuters reports that in a statement carried on state media, Jordan’s foreign ministry said it hoped the four-day pause in fighting will allow much-needed humanitarian aid into the besieged territory, and would be a step that would end the war and prevent the targeting of Palestinians and their displacement from their land.

The Israeli military explained to us their plan to create a small safe area along the sea in the southern part of Gaza to concentrate there the civilian population in order to carry out ground operations in the south of the enclave. This did not reassure me about the future course of events, if we fail to achieve a rapid and durable de-escalation of the military operations.
[Post edited 22 Nov 2023 10:36]


"given 40% of buildings have already been destroyed"

This number seemed very high to me but I've found the source for this and it's an independent analysis using space-based radar from the European Space Agency's Sentinel-1 satellite so it would seem that it's a reasonable source:

https://abcnews.go.com/International/mapping-destruction-space-half-northern-gaz

Given that it really seems hard to square the narrative that the IDF are restricting their targets unless we are willing to say that the majority of buildings in Northern Gaza hold either a base or significant Hamas infrastructure. I don't think we've seen any evidence from the IDF to show that is the case.

SB

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:42 - Nov 22 with 2624 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:31 - Nov 22 by DJR

Two conflicting views of what might happen next, but if the second (quoting Josep Borell), there will be little of Gaza left standing, given 40% of buildings have already been destroyed. I would hope the former pans out, and I am not sure the US would want the second outcome which would destroy any hope of a viable Palestinian state in Gaza.

Reuters reports that in a statement carried on state media, Jordan’s foreign ministry said it hoped the four-day pause in fighting will allow much-needed humanitarian aid into the besieged territory, and would be a step that would end the war and prevent the targeting of Palestinians and their displacement from their land.

The Israeli military explained to us their plan to create a small safe area along the sea in the southern part of Gaza to concentrate there the civilian population in order to carry out ground operations in the south of the enclave. This did not reassure me about the future course of events, if we fail to achieve a rapid and durable de-escalation of the military operations.
[Post edited 22 Nov 2023 10:36]


Yes, feels like a real sliding-doors moment. The start of the journey towards peace or the establishment of a new occupation and deepening of the war. Or potentially even worse the process of clearing out the Palestinians from Gaza entirely.

Wiser and more compassionate heads can at least come to the fore now however briefly. It’s an opportunity the international community has a moral duty to take and a rare chance to stand up for the people who really matter in all this.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:48 - Nov 22 with 2590 viewsStokieBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:41 - Nov 22 by GlasgowBlue

I think it’s long enough to get more people evacuated and humanitarian aid brought in to the people of Gaza but short enough that Hamas cannot re arm and plan another massacre along the lines of October 7th.

So I agree with you. It’s good news.


Evacuated to where?

It's absolutely right to use the term massacre for the 7th October. What term would you deem correct for the killing of ~14,000 civilians including a large number of children?

SB

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:50 - Nov 22 with 2589 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:42 - Nov 22 by Darth_Koont

Yes, feels like a real sliding-doors moment. The start of the journey towards peace or the establishment of a new occupation and deepening of the war. Or potentially even worse the process of clearing out the Palestinians from Gaza entirely.

Wiser and more compassionate heads can at least come to the fore now however briefly. It’s an opportunity the international community has a moral duty to take and a rare chance to stand up for the people who really matter in all this.


I assume that the 150 prisoners that Israel is set to release, are not Hamas militants? If they are, then surely Israel's aim is to then kill them.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:56 - Nov 22 with 2557 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:42 - Nov 22 by StokieBlue

"given 40% of buildings have already been destroyed"

This number seemed very high to me but I've found the source for this and it's an independent analysis using space-based radar from the European Space Agency's Sentinel-1 satellite so it would seem that it's a reasonable source:

https://abcnews.go.com/International/mapping-destruction-space-half-northern-gaz

Given that it really seems hard to square the narrative that the IDF are restricting their targets unless we are willing to say that the majority of buildings in Northern Gaza hold either a base or significant Hamas infrastructure. I don't think we've seen any evidence from the IDF to show that is the case.

SB


Talking of which:

https://www.newsweek.com/israel-built-bunker-shifa-hospital-ehud-barak-1845518

TLDR:


This needs confirmation but questions need to be raised if this is the case. If the justification for going after Al Shifa is a tunnel and bunker built by the Israelis in the 70s and a few Kalashnikovs scattered in strange places then it’s beginning to look like we’re getting played to justify indiscriminate targeting of civilians and civilian infrastructure.

There is zero doubt that Hamas does use human shields which is awful and can never be justified. But even then under the Geneva convention there is a proportionality expected in how those targets are dealt with. It seems a large part of Israeli propaganda has been about blurring lines to turn everything and everyone, even hospitals and medics, into “legitimate” targets.
[Post edited 22 Nov 2023 11:38]

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Any small progress should be welcomed. on 11:01 - Nov 22 with 2514 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:50 - Nov 22 by noggin

I assume that the 150 prisoners that Israel is set to release, are not Hamas militants? If they are, then surely Israel's aim is to then kill them.


Women and teenagers, I should imagine that they have been extensively questioned and the Israeli authorities are, in effect, just confirming that they were wrongfully arrested.

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Any small progress should be welcomed. on 11:05 - Nov 22 with 2499 viewsnoggin

Any small progress should be welcomed. on 11:01 - Nov 22 by WeWereZombies

Women and teenagers, I should imagine that they have been extensively questioned and the Israeli authorities are, in effect, just confirming that they were wrongfully arrested.


Thank you. So Israel has been holding women and children, without trial?

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Any small progress should be welcomed. on 11:10 - Nov 22 with 2457 viewsWeWereZombies

Any small progress should be welcomed. on 11:05 - Nov 22 by noggin

Thank you. So Israel has been holding women and children, without trial?


I expect there was a trial, but...

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Any small progress should be welcomed. on 11:10 - Nov 22 with 2464 viewsBlueschev

Any small progress should be welcomed. on 11:05 - Nov 22 by noggin

Thank you. So Israel has been holding women and children, without trial?


They've been doing so for decades.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:19 - Nov 22 with 2431 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:48 - Nov 22 by StokieBlue

Evacuated to where?

It's absolutely right to use the term massacre for the 7th October. What term would you deem correct for the killing of ~14,000 civilians including a large number of children?

SB


I don’t think it matters to the Israeli hard-liners. Different officials have said driven into the sea, squeezed out into Egypt, shared out among the Arab nations, left to the international community to sort out or my favourite of Scotland because of Hamza Yousaf’s criticism.

But as you’re probably alluding to there isn’t anywhere for them to go nor legitimacy under international law. Evacuation means ethnic cleansing at this stage for the Israeli regime.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:28 - Nov 22 with 2403 viewsBlueschev

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:48 - Nov 22 by StokieBlue

Evacuated to where?

It's absolutely right to use the term massacre for the 7th October. What term would you deem correct for the killing of ~14,000 civilians including a large number of children?

SB


I would call what's happening ethnic cleansing.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:42 - Nov 22 with 2360 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:42 - Nov 22 by StokieBlue

"given 40% of buildings have already been destroyed"

This number seemed very high to me but I've found the source for this and it's an independent analysis using space-based radar from the European Space Agency's Sentinel-1 satellite so it would seem that it's a reasonable source:

https://abcnews.go.com/International/mapping-destruction-space-half-northern-gaz

Given that it really seems hard to square the narrative that the IDF are restricting their targets unless we are willing to say that the majority of buildings in Northern Gaza hold either a base or significant Hamas infrastructure. I don't think we've seen any evidence from the IDF to show that is the case.

SB


I took the 40% figure from yesterday's statement from Josep Borell who said the following.

"More than 40 % of the housing has been demolished in Gaza".

And don't forget there has been bombing going on in the less populated south.
[Post edited 22 Nov 2023 11:45]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:48 - Nov 22 with 2316 viewsDJR

Interesting that France is increasing the pressure.

In comments this morning, France’s foreign minister, Catherine Colonna, has been critical of Israel, saying that there are too many civilian deaths and this is “unworthy of a democracy”.

Speaking on France Inter radio she said the Israel-Hamas deal was “a moment of real hope”, and hailed “particularly the work of Qatar” in clinching it after weeks of tortuous talks.

Colonna also said that Israel must do more to protect the civilian population in Gaza.

“There have been too many deaths, we have been saying this for weeks,” she said.

Civilians in the Israeli-occupied West Bank also needed to be protected better after about 200 people there had been killed by Israeli settlers, Colonna said.

“This is unacceptable and unworthy of a democracy,” AFP reports she said.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:53 - Nov 22 with 2290 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:48 - Nov 22 by DJR

Interesting that France is increasing the pressure.

In comments this morning, France’s foreign minister, Catherine Colonna, has been critical of Israel, saying that there are too many civilian deaths and this is “unworthy of a democracy”.

Speaking on France Inter radio she said the Israel-Hamas deal was “a moment of real hope”, and hailed “particularly the work of Qatar” in clinching it after weeks of tortuous talks.

Colonna also said that Israel must do more to protect the civilian population in Gaza.

“There have been too many deaths, we have been saying this for weeks,” she said.

Civilians in the Israeli-occupied West Bank also needed to be protected better after about 200 people there had been killed by Israeli settlers, Colonna said.

“This is unacceptable and unworthy of a democracy,” AFP reports she said.


"Civilians in the Israeli-occupied West Bank also needed to be protected better after about 200 people there had been killed by Israeli settlers, Colonna said."

When does this become a massacre and are these settlers considered terrorists?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:54 - Nov 22 with 2286 viewsStokieBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:42 - Nov 22 by DJR

I took the 40% figure from yesterday's statement from Josep Borell who said the following.

"More than 40 % of the housing has been demolished in Gaza".

And don't forget there has been bombing going on in the less populated south.
[Post edited 22 Nov 2023 11:45]


The article I linked has the study in it. The number is between 40% and 51% of buildings although that relates specifically to Northern Gaza.

SB

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:55 - Nov 22 with 2274 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:31 - Nov 22 by DJR

Two conflicting views of what might happen next, but if the second (quoting Josep Borell), there will be little of Gaza left standing, given 40% of buildings have already been destroyed. I would hope the former pans out, and I am not sure the US would want the second outcome which would destroy any hope of a viable Palestinian state in Gaza.

Reuters reports that in a statement carried on state media, Jordan’s foreign ministry said it hoped the four-day pause in fighting will allow much-needed humanitarian aid into the besieged territory, and would be a step that would end the war and prevent the targeting of Palestinians and their displacement from their land.

The Israeli military explained to us their plan to create a small safe area along the sea in the southern part of Gaza to concentrate there the civilian population in order to carry out ground operations in the south of the enclave. This did not reassure me about the future course of events, if we fail to achieve a rapid and durable de-escalation of the military operations.
[Post edited 22 Nov 2023 10:36]


There are currently 1.7 million internally displaced people in Gaza, so thinking further about the plans of the Israeli military, which would appear to involve a small uninhabited area near the coast in southern Gaza, we could end up with, say, 2.2 million people crowded into that tiny area if the plans go ahead.

I can't see the US allowing that to happen.

The other thing to say is that the military may plan for things, but that doesn't mean that it will be given the go ahead politically.
[Post edited 22 Nov 2023 12:02]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:57 - Nov 22 with 2239 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:54 - Nov 22 by StokieBlue

The article I linked has the study in it. The number is between 40% and 51% of buildings although that relates specifically to Northern Gaza.

SB


Sorry, I wasn't challenging what you posted, just pointing out the source for my comment.
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