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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? 19:54 - Nov 2 with 257385 viewsnoggin

Yeah but Owen Jones...
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 9:05]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:05 - Nov 28 with 3127 viewsNthsuffolkblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:53 - Nov 28 by lowhouseblue

to be clear, the oslo accords established the palestinian authority to govern gaza, which it did until hamas took over in a battle with fatah. hamas waged war with israel and israel then withdrew from gaza and dismantled its settlements there. israel and egypt then closed their borders with gaza. your misrepresentation of this history is clearly for a purpose.


Are you sure you have a complete story there?

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/gaza-israel-occupied-internatio

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:16 - Nov 28 with 3083 viewsDarth_Koont

This will be a tough watch for many and not just because of Piers Morgan. He's actually pretty decent in this interview.

But it's a tough, searing yet unflinchingly humane appraisal from Finkelstein that might help some people to re-think their position or at least to temper some of the worst, most dehumanising stances being taken.

The solution to Israel-Palestine will only ever come from understanding, compassion and a shared revulsion of what decades of conflict have done to innocent Palestinains and Israelis.

I like to think that this is how Primo Levi would see the tragedy — in its simplest, most human and least hateful terms.


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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:19 - Nov 28 with 3056 viewslowhouseblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:59 - Nov 28 by Darth_Koont

They are refugees without a state or any meaningful recognition of their rights as human beings.

Your misrepresentation of their reality and their humanity is expected.


i'm not suggesting that post 2005 gaza is good or sustainable - i'm just explaining how we got there and the decisive role of hamas in the failure of the oslo accords. without understanding that you are cherry picking a very complex history to back up your simplistic story.

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:21 - Nov 28 with 3047 viewslowhouseblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:05 - Nov 28 by Nthsuffolkblue

Are you sure you have a complete story there?

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/gaza-israel-occupied-internatio


a complete story in 5 lines? no.

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:25 - Nov 28 with 3025 viewsNthsuffolkblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:21 - Nov 28 by lowhouseblue

a complete story in 5 lines? no.


As long as you are recognising that you are "cherry picking a very complex history to back up your simplistic story."
[Post edited 28 Nov 2023 19:25]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:29 - Nov 28 with 2997 viewslowhouseblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:25 - Nov 28 by Nthsuffolkblue

As long as you are recognising that you are "cherry picking a very complex history to back up your simplistic story."
[Post edited 28 Nov 2023 19:25]


absolutely. i am challenging a one-sided and biased account by putting the inconvenient facts that dk wants to ignore. i have said on lots of threads that the situation is appallingly complex - but that a version in which israel is always bad and the reality of hamas is white washed won't produce any form of answer.
[Post edited 28 Nov 2023 19:44]

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:32 - Nov 28 with 2967 viewsNthsuffolkblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:29 - Nov 28 by lowhouseblue

absolutely. i am challenging a one-sided and biased account by putting the inconvenient facts that dk wants to ignore. i have said on lots of threads that the situation is appallingly complex - but that a version in which israel is always bad and the reality of hamas is white washed won't produce any form of answer.
[Post edited 28 Nov 2023 19:44]


Indeed. Dialogue rather than violence is necessary for peace. Some seemed to be arguing that a ceasefire was not desirable, though.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:20 - Nov 28 with 2884 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:32 - Nov 28 by Nthsuffolkblue

Indeed. Dialogue rather than violence is necessary for peace. Some seemed to be arguing that a ceasefire was not desirable, though.


People were arguing that a humanitarian pause was more preferable to a ceasefire. That's what have.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:32 - Nov 28 with 2865 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:20 - Nov 28 by GlasgowBlue

People were arguing that a humanitarian pause was more preferable to a ceasefire. That's what have.


Some people have argued for humanitarian pauses rather than a ceasefire as a way of still supporting the Israeli response in the face of growing domestic and international criticism.

Do you support the Israeli response and the continued loss of innocent lives or do you now believe this temporary ceasefire should become more permanent?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:12 - Nov 28 with 2801 viewsStokieBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:50 - Nov 28 by GlasgowBlue

I've given my opinion on the Israeli response on several occasions. Disproportionate, Indiscriminate bombing of innocent civilians, war crimes in cutting off power and water as collective responsibility.

But it's very odd that every time I call the actions of Hamas on 7 October "a masacre" you want me to follow it up with condemnation of the Israeli military response. It creates a false equivalence.


Given you've said it's the indiscriminate killing of innocent civilians how can you then say it's a false equivalence?

Obviously there are differences in the method and I've repeatedly condemned the Hamas attrocities but in the end innocent civilians are dead from both actions.

SB
[Post edited 28 Nov 2023 21:16]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:20 - Nov 28 with 2749 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:05 - Nov 28 by eireblue

It is easy to pose these questions, how many civilian deaths are acceptable to you to leave Hamas in place?

If Hamas are only partially successful killing some civilians, say on average 20 a month, is that acceptable, is 100?
If you were in charge, what number would you be acceptable?

These are just questions to polarise people. There isn’t a single person on this thread that wants civilians killed.


I may be wrong but I can't see Israel ever taking its eye off the ball and allowing Hamas to repeat what it did on 7 October. That being the case, a better comparator might be the period from the start of 2008 to just before 7 October, a period which included various conflicts in Gaza. In that period (according to figures from the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs), 177 Israeli civilians were killed in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories in the context of the conflict and occupation.

EDIT: By comparison, 3,803 Palestinian civilians were killed in that period, which was why I suggested in a post a month or so ago that if the same ratio were repeated in the current conflict in relation to the number of deaths on 7 October, we could be looking at 25,000 Palestinian civilian deaths. As it is, with an estimated 6,000 trapped under buildings, it looks like the current death toll in Gaza is already around 20,000, with it likely to soar if the ceasefire ends.
[Post edited 28 Nov 2023 21:41]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:31 - Nov 28 with 2692 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:12 - Nov 28 by StokieBlue

Given you've said it's the indiscriminate killing of innocent civilians how can you then say it's a false equivalence?

Obviously there are differences in the method and I've repeatedly condemned the Hamas attrocities but in the end innocent civilians are dead from both actions.

SB
[Post edited 28 Nov 2023 21:16]


I'll tell you why it's false equivalence.

Tony Blair is often accused of being a war criminal.I disagree, he isn't, but I'll use hims as an example.

Tony Blair can give an order to bomb Iraq, knowing that thousands of innocent civilians will be killed. There has never been a war where innocent civilians haven't been killed. So we know Tony Blair is capable of giving that order.

I do not believe that Tony Blair is capable of raping a woman with a gun to her head and killing her whilst his pants are still around his ankles.

I do no believe that Tony Blair is capable of shoving a knife deep in the vagina of his dead rape victim.

I don't believe Tony Blair is capable of cutting off his murdered rape victims breasts and chucking them around with his mates as if they were a toy.

I don't believe that Tony Blair is capable of cutting open a pregnant woman, ripping her baby from her and repeatedly stab the baby to death whilst slapping the mother around the face so that sh stays awake to witness the atrocity.

I don't believe Tony Blair is capable of burning whole families alive. Or cutting off the limbs of three year old children in front of their parents.

And that Stokie, is why I think there is a false equivalence between the IDF and Hamas.

You cannot enter into negotiations with people who are capable of the above. Ever. Hamas have to be destroyed. But at the same time the IDF have to minimise civillian casualties whilst they do so.
[Post edited 28 Nov 2023 21:31]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:47 - Nov 28 with 2661 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:31 - Nov 28 by GlasgowBlue

I'll tell you why it's false equivalence.

Tony Blair is often accused of being a war criminal.I disagree, he isn't, but I'll use hims as an example.

Tony Blair can give an order to bomb Iraq, knowing that thousands of innocent civilians will be killed. There has never been a war where innocent civilians haven't been killed. So we know Tony Blair is capable of giving that order.

I do not believe that Tony Blair is capable of raping a woman with a gun to her head and killing her whilst his pants are still around his ankles.

I do no believe that Tony Blair is capable of shoving a knife deep in the vagina of his dead rape victim.

I don't believe Tony Blair is capable of cutting off his murdered rape victims breasts and chucking them around with his mates as if they were a toy.

I don't believe that Tony Blair is capable of cutting open a pregnant woman, ripping her baby from her and repeatedly stab the baby to death whilst slapping the mother around the face so that sh stays awake to witness the atrocity.

I don't believe Tony Blair is capable of burning whole families alive. Or cutting off the limbs of three year old children in front of their parents.

And that Stokie, is why I think there is a false equivalence between the IDF and Hamas.

You cannot enter into negotiations with people who are capable of the above. Ever. Hamas have to be destroyed. But at the same time the IDF have to minimise civillian casualties whilst they do so.
[Post edited 28 Nov 2023 21:31]


You of all people really need to watch Owen Jones's video and consider this:

"When you learn of the horrors which humans are capable of inflicting against each other, you either allow these horrors to deepen your humanity or you use those horrors to numb your humanity so that you can be complicit in even more, and indeed often, greater horrors."

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:51 - Nov 28 with 2644 viewsStokieBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:31 - Nov 28 by GlasgowBlue

I'll tell you why it's false equivalence.

Tony Blair is often accused of being a war criminal.I disagree, he isn't, but I'll use hims as an example.

Tony Blair can give an order to bomb Iraq, knowing that thousands of innocent civilians will be killed. There has never been a war where innocent civilians haven't been killed. So we know Tony Blair is capable of giving that order.

I do not believe that Tony Blair is capable of raping a woman with a gun to her head and killing her whilst his pants are still around his ankles.

I do no believe that Tony Blair is capable of shoving a knife deep in the vagina of his dead rape victim.

I don't believe Tony Blair is capable of cutting off his murdered rape victims breasts and chucking them around with his mates as if they were a toy.

I don't believe that Tony Blair is capable of cutting open a pregnant woman, ripping her baby from her and repeatedly stab the baby to death whilst slapping the mother around the face so that sh stays awake to witness the atrocity.

I don't believe Tony Blair is capable of burning whole families alive. Or cutting off the limbs of three year old children in front of their parents.

And that Stokie, is why I think there is a false equivalence between the IDF and Hamas.

You cannot enter into negotiations with people who are capable of the above. Ever. Hamas have to be destroyed. But at the same time the IDF have to minimise civillian casualties whilst they do so.
[Post edited 28 Nov 2023 21:31]


I totally agree all those things are utterly awful, dispicable and unjustifiable.

For the record the equivalence was with the indiscriminate killing of innocent civilians, not the methods.

However I doubt the fact that the IDF is using bombs as their method of killing innocents is of much consolation to the 4000 dead Palestinian children.

You say Hamas must be destroyed whilst saying the response is disproportionate. I simply don't know how the square those two positions.

SB

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:53 - Nov 28 with 2622 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:51 - Nov 28 by StokieBlue

I totally agree all those things are utterly awful, dispicable and unjustifiable.

For the record the equivalence was with the indiscriminate killing of innocent civilians, not the methods.

However I doubt the fact that the IDF is using bombs as their method of killing innocents is of much consolation to the 4000 dead Palestinian children.

You say Hamas must be destroyed whilst saying the response is disproportionate. I simply don't know how the square those two positions.

SB


I said that Hamas must be destroyed. I didn't say I agree with how the IDF are going about it.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:59 - Nov 28 with 2599 viewsNthsuffolkblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:53 - Nov 28 by GlasgowBlue

I said that Hamas must be destroyed. I didn't say I agree with how the IDF are going about it.


And you add in that you don't think there can be any negotiation. It is these positions that don't seem possible to all square.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:44 - Nov 28 with 2532 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:59 - Nov 28 by Nthsuffolkblue

And you add in that you don't think there can be any negotiation. It is these positions that don't seem possible to all square.


No negotiations with Hamas. Other Palestinian Authorities are available.

Life would be a damn sight better for the Palestinian people if Hamas were wiped out. This may come as a surprise to some, but Hamas don't give a fcuk about ordinary Palestians. They don't give a fcuk about a two state solution. They just want to kill every single Jew in the middle east. I'm not sure any Israeli official will ever negotiate that outcome.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 07:53 - Nov 29 with 2459 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:44 - Nov 28 by GlasgowBlue

No negotiations with Hamas. Other Palestinian Authorities are available.

Life would be a damn sight better for the Palestinian people if Hamas were wiped out. This may come as a surprise to some, but Hamas don't give a fcuk about ordinary Palestians. They don't give a fcuk about a two state solution. They just want to kill every single Jew in the middle east. I'm not sure any Israeli official will ever negotiate that outcome.


You can say very similar about the Israeli regime that don't really care about ordinary Israelis, don't want a two-state solution and have both the rhetoric and record of racist oppressors who want to push Palestinians out of their vision of a greater Israel.

It's apparent that both sides can't be trusted for the sake of the Israeli and Palestinian civilians and that's why peace must be sought in spite of Hamas and the Netanyahu regime. International pressure must be brought to establish a full ceasefire and bring them and hopefully better representatives of the civilian populations to the table.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:14 - Nov 29 with 2410 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:06 - Nov 28 by DJR

The World Health Organization (WHO) has warned that deaths from untreated illnesses could exceed deaths from bombardment in Gaza.

A WHO assessment of UNRWA shelters found widespread diarrhoea and respiratory infections among children and infants, and no treatment whatsoever.

Patients with chronic illnesses such as cancer, heart disease, or diabetes are also getting no treatment.

Meanwhile, the Unicef team in northern Gaza is also warning of catastrophic war injuries, seeing children with "horrendous wounds" lying in car parks and gardens.

Aid agencies repeating that a resumption of fighting should be unthinkable, calling again for a permanent ceasefire.


Some more detail on these via the BBC:

"This morning, the head of the World Health Organization (WHO), Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, shared on X details on the number of cases of different diseases in Gaza.

They are as follows:

Acute respiratory infections: 111,000
Scabies: 12,000
Lice: 11,000
Diarrhoea: 75,000
Skin rash: 24,000
Impetigo: 2,500
Chickenpox: 2,500
Jaundice: 1,100

Ghebreyesus says: "Given the living conditions and lack of health care, more people could die from disease than bombings."


And it's painfully obvious that any end to the current humanitarian window will mean these problems will get worse not better. The international community has to demand and pressure for a ceasefire.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:10 - Nov 29 with 2359 viewsStokieBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:44 - Nov 28 by GlasgowBlue

No negotiations with Hamas. Other Palestinian Authorities are available.

Life would be a damn sight better for the Palestinian people if Hamas were wiped out. This may come as a surprise to some, but Hamas don't give a fcuk about ordinary Palestians. They don't give a fcuk about a two state solution. They just want to kill every single Jew in the middle east. I'm not sure any Israeli official will ever negotiate that outcome.


We need some realism here though, this is a genuine question as I don't know but which other authority do you think could push through some negotiations?

SB



[Post edited 29 Nov 2023 10:40]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:57 - Nov 29 with 2298 viewsDJR

There are estimates of 200,000 to 300,000 civilians still in north Gaza, and some people have been trying to return during the truce.

This being the case, I am not sure how feasible it is for hostilities to resume, given the desire of Israel for people to move to the south and so presumably really ramp up the battle in the north.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:07 - Nov 29 with 2271 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:14 - Nov 29 by Darth_Koont

Some more detail on these via the BBC:

"This morning, the head of the World Health Organization (WHO), Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, shared on X details on the number of cases of different diseases in Gaza.

They are as follows:

Acute respiratory infections: 111,000
Scabies: 12,000
Lice: 11,000
Diarrhoea: 75,000
Skin rash: 24,000
Impetigo: 2,500
Chickenpox: 2,500
Jaundice: 1,100

Ghebreyesus says: "Given the living conditions and lack of health care, more people could die from disease than bombings."


And it's painfully obvious that any end to the current humanitarian window will mean these problems will get worse not better. The international community has to demand and pressure for a ceasefire.


As I have pointed out before, Israel is in clear breach of this limb of Article 49 of the Geneva Convention which concerns the movement of civilians.

The Occupying Power undertaking such transfers or evacuations shall ensure, to the greatest practicable extent, that proper accommodation is provided to receive the protected persons, that the removals are effected in satisfactory conditions of hygiene, health, safety and nutrition, and that members of the same family are not separated.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:39 - Nov 29 with 2227 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:07 - Nov 29 by DJR

As I have pointed out before, Israel is in clear breach of this limb of Article 49 of the Geneva Convention which concerns the movement of civilians.

The Occupying Power undertaking such transfers or evacuations shall ensure, to the greatest practicable extent, that proper accommodation is provided to receive the protected persons, that the removals are effected in satisfactory conditions of hygiene, health, safety and nutrition, and that members of the same family are not separated.


Who is going to enforce that though?

Re: Israel-Palestine, we in the West have an utterly appalling record of talking about the importance of international law, the illegality and danger of settlements, the illegality and danger of human rights abuses, the need for peace, the need for a two-state solution etc.

But we haven't actually done a thing about any of it so Israel is free to carry on with impunity. In fact we even go the other way, blocking UN resolutions, ignoring human rights and humanitarian aid organisations, ignoring and/or demonising protesters and non-violent protest like BDS and generally increasing the aid we send to Israel.

Our leaders make critical statements, sometimes very strong in their condemnation, but then do nothing to back them up/do the opposite. Does anyone think that's an accident and not a tactic?

Either way, their words are still largely meaningless unless they lead to something a lot more concrete for the Palestinian and Israeli citivilians than we've seen in years.

Edit: This is in addition to what you posted and taking the issue of war crimes further. Certainly isn't a criticism of your post stating the situation.
[Post edited 29 Nov 2023 11:46]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:37 - Nov 29 with 2151 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:39 - Nov 29 by Darth_Koont

Who is going to enforce that though?

Re: Israel-Palestine, we in the West have an utterly appalling record of talking about the importance of international law, the illegality and danger of settlements, the illegality and danger of human rights abuses, the need for peace, the need for a two-state solution etc.

But we haven't actually done a thing about any of it so Israel is free to carry on with impunity. In fact we even go the other way, blocking UN resolutions, ignoring human rights and humanitarian aid organisations, ignoring and/or demonising protesters and non-violent protest like BDS and generally increasing the aid we send to Israel.

Our leaders make critical statements, sometimes very strong in their condemnation, but then do nothing to back them up/do the opposite. Does anyone think that's an accident and not a tactic?

Either way, their words are still largely meaningless unless they lead to something a lot more concrete for the Palestinian and Israeli citivilians than we've seen in years.

Edit: This is in addition to what you posted and taking the issue of war crimes further. Certainly isn't a criticism of your post stating the situation.
[Post edited 29 Nov 2023 11:46]


No criticism inferred.

I especially thought it strange that I have not heard this point being raised by anyone, anywhere.
[Post edited 29 Nov 2023 12:43]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:48 - Nov 29 with 2117 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:37 - Nov 29 by DJR

No criticism inferred.

I especially thought it strange that I have not heard this point being raised by anyone, anywhere.
[Post edited 29 Nov 2023 12:43]


Neither have I.

The problem is it's just adding to the long list of things we'll overlook. And I agree with this commentator that it is a very bad look that does us no favours in the long run.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/27/war-gaza-lesson-western-hy

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