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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? 19:54 - Nov 2 with 257203 viewsnoggin

Yeah but Owen Jones...
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 9:05]

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Good grief. (n/t) on 09:49 - Nov 3 with 2893 viewsBloots

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:37 - Nov 3 by BanksterDebtSlave

Maybe build a big feck off fence but then use actual people to keep an eye on it.



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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:52 - Nov 3 with 2862 viewsNthQldITFC

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:13 - Nov 3 by itfcjoe

But in those post-Brexit world what is the alternative? We have no European nations as allies any more, the commonwealth is no more, we struggle to even keep the 4 nations together!


I think you should do and say what is morally right, whether or not it has any material positive (or negative) consequences. That way you put building blocks in place for a better future where entrenched ideology and ego-fuelled conflict finds it harder to take over every time. I'm not saying that success is guaranteed, but it's the morally right thing to do.

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:53 - Nov 3 with 2855 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:37 - Nov 3 by BanksterDebtSlave

Maybe build a big feck off fence but then use actual people to keep an eye on it.


So Gaza is currently blockaded by Israel and Egypt but your solution to a peaceful future is to enforce the blockade even more rigidly?

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:54 - Nov 3 with 2850 viewsDJR

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:23 - Nov 3 by SuperKieranMcKenna

The EU’s official stance has at least been more balanced than that of the US or UK, and highlighted the breaches of international law-:


“ The cutting off of water and electricity supplies and the pressure on civilians to leave their homes is against international law.”

“ Hamas shouldn’t be confused with the Palestinian people and the civilian population of Gaza cannot be held collectively responsible for its criminal actions.”


That's a good point. I think I was more focusing on the EU's initial backing of Israel's right of self-defence, which appeared to me to give it carte blanche. But as the EU has seen the consequences, they have modified their stance, not least because they have to take into account the views of different countries.

In contrast, the UK has kept its head down.
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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:55 - Nov 3 with 2841 viewsSuperKieranMcKenna

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:38 - Nov 3 by Ryorry

Look at a map & topography.

Israel is about 20 miles (I think, happy to be corrected) wide at its narrowest point.

It's not all about weapons, hardware, and capability.


Israel isn’t armed to the teeth because of Hamas anyway. It’s defence against the surrounding states that openly want to wipe it off the map, and others nearby (Iran) who repeatedly tried to build nuclear weapons. Not only that Israel has a small geography and population, which means that hi tech weaponry is the leveller against the much larger and more populated nations around them (as we also see in Ukraine).

The use of such arms against civilians is clearly appalling as we all agree, but their level of armament is there for other purposes.
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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:59 - Nov 3 with 2799 viewsSuperKieranMcKenna

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:40 - Nov 3 by Blueschev

I think at one point between the West Bank and the Med it's about 10 miles, which is a huge stumbling block to a two state solution.


And to that point the sharing of natural resources (particularly water and access to the sea) is going to be one hell of a thing to solve (in regards to the two state solution).
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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:59 - Nov 3 with 2787 viewsRyorry

How many Palestinian and Israeli lives must be lost ? on 08:33 - Nov 3 by WeWereZombies

I'm answering your posts out of chronological order here, sorry. Hamas took hostages as bargaining chips to try and get their jailed members released. So their argument would be for a joint hostage release as part of a ceasefire I guess. Very little chance of Netanyahu's administration doing that of course, and Hamas have, in my opinion, only been very slowly releasing hostages to get International attention that might slow the Israeli advance.

Which brings me to the report on the BBC Radio Four ten o'clock news a few nights ago about a middle aged Jewish lady shaking the hand of the Hamas operative just before she was released. Why would someone do that ? Perhaps the people caught up in this tragic cat and mouse game realise they are mere pawns in a bigger strategic battle played between the men who want power in Israel and Palestine (who are in turn pawns of the super powers who will wage a proxy war if they think it advances their Global influence.)
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 20:48]


"Hamas took hostages as bargaining chips to try and get their jailed members released"

It wouldn't be just Netanyahu refusing to release Hamas terrorists (as a swap for innocent civilians) so they could come out & wage their horror attacks & kidnappings of yet more innocent civilians all over again - no sane leader anywhere would do that (which doesn't mean I think Netanyahu is sane, btw ...)
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 10:10]

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 10:00 - Nov 3 with 2781 viewsBlueschev

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:55 - Nov 3 by SuperKieranMcKenna

Israel isn’t armed to the teeth because of Hamas anyway. It’s defence against the surrounding states that openly want to wipe it off the map, and others nearby (Iran) who repeatedly tried to build nuclear weapons. Not only that Israel has a small geography and population, which means that hi tech weaponry is the leveller against the much larger and more populated nations around them (as we also see in Ukraine).

The use of such arms against civilians is clearly appalling as we all agree, but their level of armament is there for other purposes.


Turning their ally in the region in to a relative military superpower is particularly beneficial to the US.
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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 10:01 - Nov 3 with 2768 viewsRyorry

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:23 - Nov 3 by SuperKieranMcKenna

The EU’s official stance has at least been more balanced than that of the US or UK, and highlighted the breaches of international law-:


“ The cutting off of water and electricity supplies and the pressure on civilians to leave their homes is against international law.”

“ Hamas shouldn’t be confused with the Palestinian people and the civilian population of Gaza cannot be held collectively responsible for its criminal actions.”


Biden has said pretty much the same though.

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 10:03 - Nov 3 with 2745 viewsRyorry

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:43 - Nov 3 by BanksterDebtSlave

But we are talking about Hamas anhialating Israel.


And ..?

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 10:06 - Nov 3 with 2734 viewsSuperKieranMcKenna

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 10:00 - Nov 3 by Blueschev

Turning their ally in the region in to a relative military superpower is particularly beneficial to the US.


So you don’t agree there is an existential threat to Israel?

They are not even that reliable an ally since they’ve bought and sold weapons to Russia, and refused to apply sanctions.
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How many Palestinian and Israelis have to die ? on 10:06 - Nov 3 with 2730 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:40 - Nov 3 by Blueschev

I think at one point between the West Bank and the Med it's about 10 miles, which is a huge stumbling block to a two state solution.


Yet, as JohnTy's very instructive post shortly after the current war started I found out that there was a British Government White Paper in 1939 advocating a two state solution

meria04_spj01.pdf

And the the United nations, in the immediate post war period just acknowledged a Jewish homeland. But the plan is there, although it would be the Devil's own job to get Israel to accede to it now that the population has increased and territory has been won from neighbours.

It might be possible to garner agreement on the grounds that Arab birth rates are higher than Jewish ones (including those Jews who are Arabs maybe) so that two states founded upon religious or ethnic identity would prevent a unitary state become a majority Muslim and Arab state but, after minor disagreements elsewhere in this thread, I hesitate to draw comparisons with anywhere else in the World.
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 20:37]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:10 - Nov 3 with 2723 viewsgiant_stow

Just a little side comment on one thing Jones says: Hamas, when seen as closely allied to Iran, *does* have the power to wipe Israel off the map.

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 10:11 - Nov 3 with 2717 viewsBlueschev

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 10:06 - Nov 3 by SuperKieranMcKenna

So you don’t agree there is an existential threat to Israel?

They are not even that reliable an ally since they’ve bought and sold weapons to Russia, and refused to apply sanctions.


Who is the existential threat coming from exactly? Israel is the only nuclear power in the region, has by far the most advanced military in the region, and her closest ally is the greatest military superpower the world has ever seen. Israel is likely to continue in a state of continued yet manageable conflict with her near neighbours, but Israel as a state is not going anywhere.
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Memo to Bloots on 10:12 - Nov 3 with 2713 viewsWeWereZombies

Good grief. (n/t) on 09:49 - Nov 3 by Bloots



Check irony bypass switch is in 'off' position...

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:14 - Nov 3 with 2703 viewsBlueschev

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:10 - Nov 3 by giant_stow

Just a little side comment on one thing Jones says: Hamas, when seen as closely allied to Iran, *does* have the power to wipe Israel off the map.


You honestly think Iran has the capability to wipe Israel off the map? How would it do this?
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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 10:18 - Nov 3 with 2686 viewsSuperKieranMcKenna

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 10:11 - Nov 3 by Blueschev

Who is the existential threat coming from exactly? Israel is the only nuclear power in the region, has by far the most advanced military in the region, and her closest ally is the greatest military superpower the world has ever seen. Israel is likely to continue in a state of continued yet manageable conflict with her near neighbours, but Israel as a state is not going anywhere.


I literally said that’s the reason Isreal is well armed, so I’m struggling to see what your point is?
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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 10:18 - Nov 3 with 2684 viewsbrazil1982

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:47 - Nov 3 by Zapers

It's hardly Israel's fault that Hamas use their citizens as human shields.

Maybe a little more condemnation of Hamas might not go amiss.


You mean, how about some of the protesters protesting about Hamas? about how they don't want a terrorist organisation using Gaza as a launchpad to attack Israel?
Won't happen.
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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 10:20 - Nov 3 with 2675 viewsDJR

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 10:01 - Nov 3 by Ryorry

Biden has said pretty much the same though.


Biden may have said in general terms that Israel should act in accordance with international law, but I am not aware of him actually condemning anything they have done.

Indeed, even if the US doesn't support a ceasefire, it could surely pressurise Israel into behaving a bit more humanely. But there is no evidence that it has done, not least because of the words of Kamala Harris I quoted above.
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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 10:20 - Nov 3 with 2667 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:44 - Nov 3 by lowhouseblue

i think 7th october makes it more than just 'hype'.


To put into context the scale of the 7/10 massacres as a percentage of Israel's population. If the same thing had happened in the UK, we would have seen 10,000 British people killed in a single day.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:21 - Nov 3 with 2657 viewsgiant_stow

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:14 - Nov 3 by Blueschev

You honestly think Iran has the capability to wipe Israel off the map? How would it do this?


Hezbollah is supposed to possess a huge stockpile of high quality missiles, plus Iran's own numerous forces and it's own possible development of nukes.

Perhaps 'wiping Israel off the map' is a little strong / perhaps not. If all surrounding hostile countries and forces attacked simultaneously, Israel and its population would certainly feel massive pain and suffering.

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 10:22 - Nov 3 with 2653 viewsBlueschev

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 10:18 - Nov 3 by SuperKieranMcKenna

I literally said that’s the reason Isreal is well armed, so I’m struggling to see what your point is?


You asked if I thought there was currently an existential threat to Israel, so I explained why currently I think there is not. Apologies if I misunderstood what you said.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:22 - Nov 3 with 2646 viewsSuperKieranMcKenna

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:14 - Nov 3 by Blueschev

You honestly think Iran has the capability to wipe Israel off the map? How would it do this?


If it were to become nuclear armed - Israel has carried out pre emotive strikes previously to prevent Iran enriching uranium. Which demonstrates the threat to which Israel would face without modern military hardware.
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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 10:23 - Nov 3 with 2643 viewsDJR

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:47 - Nov 3 by Zapers

It's hardly Israel's fault that Hamas use their citizens as human shields.

Maybe a little more condemnation of Hamas might not go amiss.


I would certainly condemn the action of Hamas on 7 October, and the continued holding of hostages, but that doesn't mean one can't feel sympathy for the plight of ordinary Palestinians.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:28 - Nov 3 with 2614 viewsBlueschev

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:21 - Nov 3 by giant_stow

Hezbollah is supposed to possess a huge stockpile of high quality missiles, plus Iran's own numerous forces and it's own possible development of nukes.

Perhaps 'wiping Israel off the map' is a little strong / perhaps not. If all surrounding hostile countries and forces attacked simultaneously, Israel and its population would certainly feel massive pain and suffering.


Oh I agree it would be horrendous. The situation as it stands is horrendous. But there's a reason Israel's adversaries don't attack them, and that's because they know full well they cannot compete with them militarily.

They also don't want to because they largely don't care about the plight of the Palestinians, and the continued occupation works as a distraction tactic for the anger of their own populations. Without their bogeyman (Israel), their populations might ask why they themselves are being oppressed.
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