| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 16:14 - Dec 11 with 4535 views | BlueBadger |
Are we allowed to say 'sleepwalking into fascism' yet? |  |
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| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 19:25 - Dec 11 with 1194 views | BlueBadger |
| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 19:19 - Dec 11 by lowhouseblue |
i'm disagreeing with bobbins and challenging bobbins. but we've had the debate before and i just can't be bothered. i'm really pretty confident we're not living in anything near a fascist regime - but if you get a thrill by believing it then fill your boots. [Post edited 11 Dec 2023 19:20]
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Not yet we're not. You're going 'LOL no' and belittling people(something your new pal Zapers disapproves of greatly).
As others have said, if they get another term that picture will be very different.
They're already trying to force through a bill which says 'the courts don't count' to support their own Madagascar project, are openly stirring up hatred against minority groups and are seeking to limit access to the vote for a number of groups.
Going 'LOL no' because you've spent the last decade defending them because people have Very Real Concerns and they weren't led by Jeremy Cornyn has made you a bit complacent mate. [Post edited 11 Dec 2023 19:26]
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| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 19:26 - Dec 11 with 1193 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 19:19 - Dec 11 by lowhouseblue |
i'm disagreeing with bobbins and challenging bobbins. but we've had the debate before and i just can't be bothered. i'm really pretty confident we're not living in anything near a fascist regime - but if you get a thrill by believing it then fill your boots. [Post edited 11 Dec 2023 19:20]
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I don't think anyone is suggesting that we are currently. What we are warning about is that once we are it is too late and there are too many steps towards it that seem to go unchallenged. |  |
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| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 19:43 - Dec 11 with 1173 views | Herbivore |
| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 19:12 - Dec 11 by lowhouseblue |
well it's a debate we've had before and it makes me worry you've lost touch with reality. the uk is not 12/14th of the way to fascism and, as you know, i find it pretty insulting to those who lived and died under real fascism for anyone to make that claim. really, check your privileges as a middle class person living in a functioning democracy under the rule of law. |
Think you're the one who needs to check their privilege and get in touch with reality. There's a bill in parliament at the moment that's intended to essentially bypass the judiciary and disapply human rights law for some asylum seekers. It's only from a position of white male middle class privilege that you can look at that and think we still live in a normal functioning liberal democracy under the rule of law. [Post edited 11 Dec 2023 19:45]
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| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 19:46 - Dec 11 with 1162 views | MattinLondon |
What’s the story here? Why would a university play the National Anthem? |  | | |
| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 20:18 - Dec 11 with 1129 views | lowhouseblue |
| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 19:25 - Dec 11 by BlueBadger |
Not yet we're not. You're going 'LOL no' and belittling people(something your new pal Zapers disapproves of greatly).
As others have said, if they get another term that picture will be very different.
They're already trying to force through a bill which says 'the courts don't count' to support their own Madagascar project, are openly stirring up hatred against minority groups and are seeking to limit access to the vote for a number of groups.
Going 'LOL no' because you've spent the last decade defending them because people have Very Real Concerns and they weren't led by Jeremy Cornyn has made you a bit complacent mate. [Post edited 11 Dec 2023 19:26]
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but the courts do count and the courts will knock their bill down. which is pretty much the proof that we are no where near fascism. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 20:21 - Dec 11 with 1112 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 20:18 - Dec 11 by lowhouseblue |
but the courts do count and the courts will knock their bill down. which is pretty much the proof that we are no where near fascism. |
Parliament is sovereign and has actively attempted (and may well succeed) in overriding the courts on this in a dishonest way. |  | | |
| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 20:23 - Dec 11 with 1108 views | Trequartista |
It's not fascism. |  |
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| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 20:27 - Dec 11 with 1095 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 20:23 - Dec 11 by Trequartista |
It's not fascism. |
It is another step down that road in intent. | | | |
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| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 20:38 - Dec 11 with 1084 views | Trequartista |
| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 20:27 - Dec 11 by redrickstuhaart |
It is another step down that road in intent. |
Nope, it's not even a threat, it's just quite a comparatively moderate Tory making a point even if a rather daft one.
Are there secret service goons going around threatening or perpetrating violence? No. This is still a very free country compared to most around the world. [Post edited 11 Dec 2023 20:39]
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| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 20:44 - Dec 11 with 1069 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 20:38 - Dec 11 by Trequartista |
Nope, it's not even a threat, it's just quite a comparatively moderate Tory making a point even if a rather daft one.
Are there secret service goons going around threatening or perpetrating violence? No. This is still a very free country compared to most around the world. [Post edited 11 Dec 2023 20:39]
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Like their comments to the BBC when it steps out of line arent a threat either? Come on. | | | |
| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 20:49 - Dec 11 with 1050 views | Trequartista |
| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 20:44 - Dec 11 by redrickstuhaart |
Like their comments to the BBC when it steps out of line arent a threat either? Come on. |
Withdrawing the licence fee would be a political decision, it's not fascism. Rik from the Young Ones was a satirical comedy character, not a political analyst. | |
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| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 20:57 - Dec 11 with 1019 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 20:49 - Dec 11 by Trequartista |
Withdrawing the licence fee would be a political decision, it's not fascism. Rik from the Young Ones was a satirical comedy character, not a political analyst. |
Ah, so Laura Kuensberg being a satirical comedy character and not a political analyst means we are safe, then! | |
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| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 21:15 - Dec 11 with 976 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 19:46 - Dec 11 by MattinLondon |
What’s the story here? Why would a university play the National Anthem? |
I’m wondering if Cambridge would, which is Dowden’s experience. Non-Oxbridge HEIs don’t play it as far as I’m aware. So either he’s out of touch with anyone outside his clique, or he’s making up nonsense on social media as part of their ongoing culture war thingy
I’m not sure there’s a story here. |  |
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| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 21:19 - Dec 11 with 970 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 20:49 - Dec 11 by Trequartista |
Withdrawing the licence fee would be a political decision, it's not fascism. Rik from the Young Ones was a satirical comedy character, not a political analyst. |
It is trying to control people and institutions by threat and coersion, in an underhand way, with entirely selfish intent.
This government is increasingly trying to stir up division and culture wars to justify authoritarian steps. | | | |
| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 21:19 - Dec 11 with 968 views | You_Bloo_Right |
If you take Laurence Britt's list of characteristics it seems we are most of the way there:
"Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism"
"Disdain for the importance of human rights"
"Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause"
"The supremacy of the military/avid militarism"
"Rampant sexism"
"A controlled mass media"
"Obsession with national security"
"Religion and ruling elite tied together"
"Power of corporations protected"
"Power of labor suppressed or eliminated"
"Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts"
"Obsession with crime and punishment"
"Rampant cronyism and corruption"
"Fraudulent elections"
On the other hand I've always liked Brecht's simpler definition, "The nakedest, most shameless, most oppressive, and most treacherous form of capitalism". And if this rings true then I'm afraid the worst is yet to come. |  |
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| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 21:41 - Dec 11 with 937 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 21:19 - Dec 11 by You_Bloo_Right |
If you take Laurence Britt's list of characteristics it seems we are most of the way there:
"Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism"
"Disdain for the importance of human rights"
"Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause"
"The supremacy of the military/avid militarism"
"Rampant sexism"
"A controlled mass media"
"Obsession with national security"
"Religion and ruling elite tied together"
"Power of corporations protected"
"Power of labor suppressed or eliminated"
"Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts"
"Obsession with crime and punishment"
"Rampant cronyism and corruption"
"Fraudulent elections"
On the other hand I've always liked Brecht's simpler definition, "The nakedest, most shameless, most oppressive, and most treacherous form of capitalism". And if this rings true then I'm afraid the worst is yet to come. |
There are certainly plenty of signs we’ve moved in that direction. The label doesn’t help, because people seem to think you need the full-blown historical examples in order to qualify. So it gets dismissed m, as we’ve seen in this thread.
If criminalising the basic democratic right to peaceful protest, effectively criminalising the fundamental human right to claim asylum and undermining the rule of law doesn’t make people at least stop and think, nothing will. People can chose ignore the labels, and just ask themselves if they’re happy with their rights being eroded and a government that seeks to operate unlawfully for (mostly) vested interests. And that’s before we get on to the corruption, cronyism, financial mismanagement, etc. | |
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| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 21:52 - Dec 11 with 913 views | You_Bloo_Right |
| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 21:41 - Dec 11 by Swansea_Blue |
There are certainly plenty of signs we’ve moved in that direction. The label doesn’t help, because people seem to think you need the full-blown historical examples in order to qualify. So it gets dismissed m, as we’ve seen in this thread.
If criminalising the basic democratic right to peaceful protest, effectively criminalising the fundamental human right to claim asylum and undermining the rule of law doesn’t make people at least stop and think, nothing will. People can chose ignore the labels, and just ask themselves if they’re happy with their rights being eroded and a government that seeks to operate unlawfully for (mostly) vested interests. And that’s before we get on to the corruption, cronyism, financial mismanagement, etc. |
You're completely right about the label. Orwell made a similar point (had to go searching for the quote):
"the word 'Fascism' is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else ... Except for the relatively small number of Fascist sympathisers, almost any English person would accept 'bully' as a synonym for 'Fascist'"
The actions of this government do not have the best interests of the nation at heart. And that surely is the point. | |
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| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 22:01 - Dec 11 with 890 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 21:52 - Dec 11 by You_Bloo_Right |
You're completely right about the label. Orwell made a similar point (had to go searching for the quote):
"the word 'Fascism' is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else ... Except for the relatively small number of Fascist sympathisers, almost any English person would accept 'bully' as a synonym for 'Fascist'"
The actions of this government do not have the best interests of the nation at heart. And that surely is the point. |
Spot on. There’s certainly bullying going on in this case, and it’s not the first time they’ve issued veiled threats. Dowden’s a member of cabinet. He shouldn’t be making those sorts of comments, even if people excuse it for banter. We shouldn’t be governed by bantz ffs  | |
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| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 22:04 - Dec 11 with 876 views | lowhouseblue |
| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 21:15 - Dec 11 by Swansea_Blue |
I’m wondering if Cambridge would, which is Dowden’s experience. Non-Oxbridge HEIs don’t play it as far as I’m aware. So either he’s out of touch with anyone outside his clique, or he’s making up nonsense on social media as part of their ongoing culture war thingy
I’m not sure there’s a story here. |
oxbridge doesn't (since it's not sung in latin it wouldn't fit in anyway). | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 22:12 - Dec 11 with 856 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 22:04 - Dec 11 by lowhouseblue |
oxbridge doesn't (since it's not sung in latin it wouldn't fit in anyway). |
So just made up nonsense then. We waste so much energy over stuff like this (I suppose that’s the point). | |
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| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 23:09 - Dec 11 with 811 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 19:12 - Dec 11 by lowhouseblue |
well it's a debate we've had before and it makes me worry you've lost touch with reality. the uk is not 12/14th of the way to fascism and, as you know, i find it pretty insulting to those who lived and died under real fascism for anyone to make that claim. really, check your privileges as a middle class person living in a functioning democracy under the rule of law. |
It really is.
The clearest examples are:
Political interference in the independence of the Media (appointments to BBC Board)
and the Judiciary (statements made by both Patel and Braverman).
The Proroguing of Parliament to force through the Government's policy by time expiring, rather than by a vote of Members of the House.
The then Prime Minister openly lying to Parliament.
The introduction of Draconian anti-protest laws.
The demonisation of people from a different ethnicity (Albanians, specifically).
The limiting of powers of the Judiciary (removal of power of Ministerial Review)
The expansion of the powers of the Executive without recourse to Parliament (power to repeal and replace laws given directly to Ministers)
The appropriation of Nationalistic symbols (Union Flag given significant prominence)
So, yes, we are a very long way down the line to Fascism.
And if you want more "German Fascism" analogies:
The bringing together of powers into the Executive, sidelining of Parliament, and restrictions on the Judiciary echo the Enabling Acts.
The wilful disregard for International Law (Rwanda Bill) and contempt for Treaties that we have signed up for (Refugee rights, Good Friday Agreement) echo the deliberate breaches of the Treaty of Versailles.
The failure of the aged Queen to prevent the Proroguing of Parliament, and failure in her duty to act as the last check and balance of our laughable unwritten Constitution, echo the failures of Von Hindenburg.
So, yes, we have journeyed a long way down the road towards Fascism. The point about Fascists is that it is too late once they are in power. So, no, we aren't there yet, but you really need to ask yourself which side you are on.
And if the US elects Trump, then they will be fully there. He already has his Brownshirts marching and attacking at will. | | | |
| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 23:10 - Dec 11 with 810 views | BlueBadger |
| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 20:38 - Dec 11 by Trequartista |
Nope, it's not even a threat, it's just quite a comparatively moderate Tory making a point even if a rather daft one.
Are there secret service goons going around threatening or perpetrating violence? No. This is still a very free country compared to most around the world. [Post edited 11 Dec 2023 20:39]
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If you ignore and take out of context everything this government says and does they are definitely not at all taking the country down a dangerous path. | |
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| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 23:26 - Dec 11 with 800 views | BlueBadger |
| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 23:09 - Dec 11 by ArnoldMoorhen |
It really is.
The clearest examples are:
Political interference in the independence of the Media (appointments to BBC Board)
and the Judiciary (statements made by both Patel and Braverman).
The Proroguing of Parliament to force through the Government's policy by time expiring, rather than by a vote of Members of the House.
The then Prime Minister openly lying to Parliament.
The introduction of Draconian anti-protest laws.
The demonisation of people from a different ethnicity (Albanians, specifically).
The limiting of powers of the Judiciary (removal of power of Ministerial Review)
The expansion of the powers of the Executive without recourse to Parliament (power to repeal and replace laws given directly to Ministers)
The appropriation of Nationalistic symbols (Union Flag given significant prominence)
So, yes, we are a very long way down the line to Fascism.
And if you want more "German Fascism" analogies:
The bringing together of powers into the Executive, sidelining of Parliament, and restrictions on the Judiciary echo the Enabling Acts.
The wilful disregard for International Law (Rwanda Bill) and contempt for Treaties that we have signed up for (Refugee rights, Good Friday Agreement) echo the deliberate breaches of the Treaty of Versailles.
The failure of the aged Queen to prevent the Proroguing of Parliament, and failure in her duty to act as the last check and balance of our laughable unwritten Constitution, echo the failures of Von Hindenburg.
So, yes, we have journeyed a long way down the road towards Fascism. The point about Fascists is that it is too late once they are in power. So, no, we aren't there yet, but you really need to ask yourself which side you are on.
And if the US elects Trump, then they will be fully there. He already has his Brownshirts marching and attacking at will. |
Yes, but if you ignore all the context and facts and take into account the fact that as a middle class white bloke I'm probably fairly safe as this goes on, then it's definitely not happening, you bug silly-billy. | |
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| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 23:51 - Dec 11 with 780 views | lowhouseblue |
| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 23:09 - Dec 11 by ArnoldMoorhen |
It really is.
The clearest examples are:
Political interference in the independence of the Media (appointments to BBC Board)
and the Judiciary (statements made by both Patel and Braverman).
The Proroguing of Parliament to force through the Government's policy by time expiring, rather than by a vote of Members of the House.
The then Prime Minister openly lying to Parliament.
The introduction of Draconian anti-protest laws.
The demonisation of people from a different ethnicity (Albanians, specifically).
The limiting of powers of the Judiciary (removal of power of Ministerial Review)
The expansion of the powers of the Executive without recourse to Parliament (power to repeal and replace laws given directly to Ministers)
The appropriation of Nationalistic symbols (Union Flag given significant prominence)
So, yes, we are a very long way down the line to Fascism.
And if you want more "German Fascism" analogies:
The bringing together of powers into the Executive, sidelining of Parliament, and restrictions on the Judiciary echo the Enabling Acts.
The wilful disregard for International Law (Rwanda Bill) and contempt for Treaties that we have signed up for (Refugee rights, Good Friday Agreement) echo the deliberate breaches of the Treaty of Versailles.
The failure of the aged Queen to prevent the Proroguing of Parliament, and failure in her duty to act as the last check and balance of our laughable unwritten Constitution, echo the failures of Von Hindenburg.
So, yes, we have journeyed a long way down the road towards Fascism. The point about Fascists is that it is too late once they are in power. So, no, we aren't there yet, but you really need to ask yourself which side you are on.
And if the US elects Trump, then they will be fully there. He already has his Brownshirts marching and attacking at will. |
what delusional nonsense. stuff i disagree with = fascism. seriously, get a grip. "if you want more 'german fascism' analogies ......". jeez. it is utterly disrespectful to those who have lived under and died under real fascist regimes to suggest that our fully functioning democracy and judiciary has anything to do with fascism. you may disagree with, and vote against policies, but that doesn't make them fascist. i'm going to leave this thread cos really life is too short. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 00:29 - Dec 12 with 760 views | Kievthegreat |
| Nice to see they've got their priorities straight part 7867865746352324341 on 23:51 - Dec 11 by lowhouseblue |
what delusional nonsense. stuff i disagree with = fascism. seriously, get a grip. "if you want more 'german fascism' analogies ......". jeez. it is utterly disrespectful to those who have lived under and died under real fascist regimes to suggest that our fully functioning democracy and judiciary has anything to do with fascism. you may disagree with, and vote against policies, but that doesn't make them fascist. i'm going to leave this thread cos really life is too short. |
What a load of guff and faux outrage to boot.
"stuff i disagree with = fascism" would be valid if the examples were frivolous or simply matters of policy. Attacking the independence of the judiciary, restriction of rights of protesters, illegal acts, political influence over the media, increasing the power of the executive. All of the above are diminishing of freedom, liberty and eroding of the democratic process in this country. |  | | |
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