| The system is broken 08:47 - Jan 4 with 3728 views | Herbivore |
This kind of gross inequality benefits no one, it contributes to the worst off remaining the worst off and it corrupts the wealthiest too. People in the middle get conned into thinking that they have more in common with those at the top and so support the status quo, when in truth they are far, far closer to those at the bottom. This kind of inequality corrodes societies and leads to nothing but unhappiness.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67877235
Happy new year! |  |
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| The system is broken on 08:53 - Jan 4 with 2493 views | nrb1985 |
It’s the people at the bottom who are paid too little not the people at the top paid too much.
CEO pay in this country is tiny in comparison to the US and some blue chip European companies - check out the LVMH family for example.
I totally agree our economy and country as a whole is set up appallingly and our inequality is worse than many other places but I think your anger is directed in the wrong place here.
Heard something frightening the other day that was that most of the land in this country is still either owned by the church or the crown which prevents us from building new houses. And that a lot of the other land still dates back to be people from old aristocratic families. [Post edited 4 Jan 8:54]
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| The system is broken on 09:03 - Jan 4 with 2423 views | NthQldITFC |
It is also a direct threat to the thin veneer of 'civilisation' which keeps a semblance of law and order in place. The excessively wealthy will find that their excessive wealth not only does not protect them but makes them a primary target when the civil society, which their kleptomania and egomania are destroying, collapses around all of our ears. |  |
| # WE ARE STEALING THE FUTURE FROM OUR CHILDREN --- WE MUST CHANGE COURSE # | | Poll: | It's driving me nuts |
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| The system is broken on 09:20 - Jan 4 with 2349 views | Herbivore |
| The system is broken on 08:53 - Jan 4 by nrb1985 |
It’s the people at the bottom who are paid too little not the people at the top paid too much.
CEO pay in this country is tiny in comparison to the US and some blue chip European companies - check out the LVMH family for example.
I totally agree our economy and country as a whole is set up appallingly and our inequality is worse than many other places but I think your anger is directed in the wrong place here.
Heard something frightening the other day that was that most of the land in this country is still either owned by the church or the crown which prevents us from building new houses. And that a lot of the other land still dates back to be people from old aristocratic families. [Post edited 4 Jan 8:54]
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But the system can't and won't support people at the bottom earning significantly more. Not everyone can earn a six figure salary. Part of the reason people at the top earn as much as they do is precisely because they are effective at keeping costs low and profits high, the system is predicated on exploiting the labour of the vast majority of the work force for the benefit of the most well off, that includes CEOs regardless of whether CEOs earn even more in the US. | |
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| The system is broken on 09:28 - Jan 4 with 2285 views | DJR |
The sad thing is that Labour will not make a blind bit of difference because, since Blair and with the exception of the Corbyn years, it has accepted the economic system which Thatcher put in place, a system which is at variance with the social democracy and so greater equality that is at the heart of many prosperous western European countries. [Post edited 4 Jan 9:31]
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| The system is broken on 09:29 - Jan 4 with 2270 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| The system is broken on 08:53 - Jan 4 by nrb1985 |
It’s the people at the bottom who are paid too little not the people at the top paid too much.
CEO pay in this country is tiny in comparison to the US and some blue chip European companies - check out the LVMH family for example.
I totally agree our economy and country as a whole is set up appallingly and our inequality is worse than many other places but I think your anger is directed in the wrong place here.
Heard something frightening the other day that was that most of the land in this country is still either owned by the church or the crown which prevents us from building new houses. And that a lot of the other land still dates back to be people from old aristocratic families. [Post edited 4 Jan 8:54]
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And anyway, lower paid people earning more causes inflation..or so the highly paid people tell us.... |  |
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| The system is broken on 09:34 - Jan 4 with 2219 views | WD19 |
Some of the maths used here is dreadful. Clickbait at its worst.
Part of the reason nothing registers or improves is that the debate gets sullied with this kind of nonsense every year. |  | | |
| The system is broken on 09:35 - Jan 4 with 2222 views | Mullet |
| The system is broken on 09:28 - Jan 4 by DJR |
The sad thing is that Labour will not make a blind bit of difference because, since Blair and with the exception of the Corbyn years, it has accepted the economic system which Thatcher put in place, a system which is at variance with the social democracy and so greater equality that is at the heart of many prosperous western European countries. [Post edited 4 Jan 9:31]
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Blair spent huge amounts on schools and social projects like SureStart the EMA etc which have all been ripped down in the meantime by Cameron et all.
Had those sort of initiatives remained in place for a generation we'd likely have far less antisocial behaviour, gaps in the education system etc.
That's not to deify Blair, but I also don't think Corbyn is a good example because his leadership was so poor he was even more detached from reality. Ultimately, that's why he was such a dismal failure and cult figure instead of a credible alternative. |  |
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| The system is broken on 09:35 - Jan 4 with 2218 views | Herbivore |
| The system is broken on 09:28 - Jan 4 by DJR |
The sad thing is that Labour will not make a blind bit of difference because, since Blair and with the exception of the Corbyn years, it has accepted the economic system which Thatcher put in place, a system which is at variance with the social democracy and so greater equality that is at the heart of many prosperous western European countries. [Post edited 4 Jan 9:31]
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Indeed. The tragedy is that all UK parties, aside from perhaps the Greens, now fully embrace a form of laissez faire neoliberal capitalism. They refuse even the possibility of doing anything more than tinkering around the edges and that means any meaningful change in this country won't come from our politicians. | |
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| The system is broken on 09:36 - Jan 4 with 2206 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| The system is broken on 09:28 - Jan 4 by DJR |
The sad thing is that Labour will not make a blind bit of difference because, since Blair and with the exception of the Corbyn years, it has accepted the economic system which Thatcher put in place, a system which is at variance with the social democracy and so greater equality that is at the heart of many prosperous western European countries. [Post edited 4 Jan 9:31]
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Not unrelated.....
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/04/voters-politicians-angry-c |  |
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| The system is broken on 09:45 - Jan 4 with 2136 views | Herbivore |
| The system is broken on 09:34 - Jan 4 by WD19 |
Some of the maths used here is dreadful. Clickbait at its worst.
Part of the reason nothing registers or improves is that the debate gets sullied with this kind of nonsense every year. |
Yes, it's definitely just the maths that's the big problem here.
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| The system is broken on 09:47 - Jan 4 with 2126 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
I still think this is somewhat the wrong people to focus on but always a media favourite. The vast majority of them will contribute a huge amount to the treasury on PAYE and CGT. It’s not out of kilter with their European peers. In fact, often their pay is challenged by investors so it isn’t totally unchecked. It’s huge money, but less than many footballers, and we are a nation with 171 billionaires who hold most of their assets offshore, and landed families that don’t even work. We even fawn over a family of tax dodging billionaires who waft around the world and wave at people now and again.
My main gripe with these CEO’s is, like football managers they are rewarded with huge payoffs for failure. Anyone else who loses their firm millions is out the door without a penny. | | | |
| The system is broken on 09:51 - Jan 4 with 2088 views | DJR |
| The system is broken on 09:35 - Jan 4 by Mullet |
Blair spent huge amounts on schools and social projects like SureStart the EMA etc which have all been ripped down in the meantime by Cameron et all.
Had those sort of initiatives remained in place for a generation we'd likely have far less antisocial behaviour, gaps in the education system etc.
That's not to deify Blair, but I also don't think Corbyn is a good example because his leadership was so poor he was even more detached from reality. Ultimately, that's why he was such a dismal failure and cult figure instead of a credible alternative. |
I don't think they would have remained in place because Labour during the coalition government was pretty much as signed up to austerity as the Tories.
https://www.ft.com/content/812b3824-00c3-11e1-8590-00144feabdc0
As it is, the obsession of both parties with keeping taxes low meant that the spending that Blair achieved depended solely on growth, and completely crumbled when growth stopped. In contrast, the same did not happen in the successful countries in western Europe, where it is recognised that higher taxes are required for sustainable public services.
Anyway, my comment was not a defence of Corbyn as a politician because he was pretty inept, just that for the first time since John Smith, Labour moved away from what some would call neo-liberalism.
EDIT: clicking on the 2011 article from the FT puts up a paywall, but this is an extract from it.
"Ed Miliband and Ed Balls have written to the shadow cabinet ordering them to develop policies that deliver “more with less” as they predict that there will still be a substantial deficit at the next election.
In a letter seen by the Financial Times, the Labour leader and shadow chancellor said the party needed to plan for a prolonged era of austerity.
“It is now clearly possible that the government will not achieve its objective to deal with the deficit in this parliament and that the next government will have to pick up the pieces,” they wrote. “We need to develop policies which secure value, drive out waste and enable the next government to do more with less.” Any such policies must be “clear, costed, affordable”.
[Post edited 4 Jan 9:54]
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| The system is broken on 09:53 - Jan 4 with 2068 views | nodge_blue |
There's a whole raft of directors behind the CEO as well. Most in FTSE companies being paid multiple hundreds of thousands. Often those people have more ambition than talent and it's just a career game of climbing the pole and job hopping between companies.
It did make me sick that unless you play the corporate game, you just won't succeed. Many of those people on the way up would just push the staff to do what they needed for their own gain. We have created a corporate culture that is truly depressing. So many people have mental health problems trying to keep spinning the wheel.
But you could apply that to footballers too. Vastly over paid. Sancho on 300k a week. When these people fail they are already set up for life. |  |
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| The system is broken on 09:53 - Jan 4 with 2063 views | nrb1985 |
| The system is broken on 09:29 - Jan 4 by Ewan_Oozami |
And anyway, lower paid people earning more causes inflation..or so the highly paid people tell us.... |
No they don’t.
Sunak and his band of public school pinky ring wearing thicko mates tell you that.
The highly paid people will tell you that most of the current inflation is caused by supply issues either in goods or Labour and imported inflation due to the weakness of the pound - which is why our inflation is about 30% higher than that of Europe. | | | |
| The system is broken on 10:01 - Jan 4 with 1964 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| The system is broken on 09:53 - Jan 4 by nrb1985 |
No they don’t.
Sunak and his band of public school pinky ring wearing thicko mates tell you that.
The highly paid people will tell you that most of the current inflation is caused by supply issues either in goods or Labour and imported inflation due to the weakness of the pound - which is why our inflation is about 30% higher than that of Europe. |
Aren't Sunak and his cronies highly paid then? | |
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| The system is broken on 10:05 - Jan 4 with 1924 views | WD19 |
| The system is broken on 09:45 - Jan 4 by Herbivore |
Yes, it's definitely just the maths that's the big problem here.
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Why bother gerrymandering the numbers to make the outcome 1 hour worse as though that makes it more sensational!? The underlying truth is a story in itself.
As I said above, it is totally self defeating. Bending the truth switches people off and in this case it serves no purpose. Its lazy (at best). | | | |
| The system is broken on 10:06 - Jan 4 with 1918 views | nrb1985 |
| The system is broken on 10:01 - Jan 4 by Ewan_Oozami |
Aren't Sunak and his cronies highly paid then? |
Not in the grand scheme of things.
I assume by smart people you mean the people who publish the research from JPM, Goldman, Jeffries etc? Avg salary is around $250k if I had an educated case.
Significantly more than the £80k or so you're paid as a MP or whatever you're paid as a cabinet minister.
To re iterate though, nobody at the research houses I mention thinks that poor people should be paid less... | | | |
| The system is broken on 10:21 - Jan 4 with 1863 views | nrb1985 |
| The system is broken on 09:53 - Jan 4 by nodge_blue |
There's a whole raft of directors behind the CEO as well. Most in FTSE companies being paid multiple hundreds of thousands. Often those people have more ambition than talent and it's just a career game of climbing the pole and job hopping between companies.
It did make me sick that unless you play the corporate game, you just won't succeed. Many of those people on the way up would just push the staff to do what they needed for their own gain. We have created a corporate culture that is truly depressing. So many people have mental health problems trying to keep spinning the wheel.
But you could apply that to footballers too. Vastly over paid. Sancho on 300k a week. When these people fail they are already set up for life. |
Booo - down with ambition. | | | |
| The system is broken on 10:31 - Jan 4 with 1811 views | NthQldITFC |
| The system is broken on 09:47 - Jan 4 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
I still think this is somewhat the wrong people to focus on but always a media favourite. The vast majority of them will contribute a huge amount to the treasury on PAYE and CGT. It’s not out of kilter with their European peers. In fact, often their pay is challenged by investors so it isn’t totally unchecked. It’s huge money, but less than many footballers, and we are a nation with 171 billionaires who hold most of their assets offshore, and landed families that don’t even work. We even fawn over a family of tax dodging billionaires who waft around the world and wave at people now and again.
My main gripe with these CEO’s is, like football managers they are rewarded with huge payoffs for failure. Anyone else who loses their firm millions is out the door without a penny. |
Yes, but it's the principle of the thing. Pointless, excessive greed is celebrated and encouraged and the price society as a whole pays for that (let alone our dying planet) is a destructive culture of 'me-first-fkcu-you' no matter what the consequences for everybody in the end.
If we don't change the culture we're doomed. | |
| # WE ARE STEALING THE FUTURE FROM OUR CHILDREN --- WE MUST CHANGE COURSE # | | Poll: | It's driving me nuts |
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| The system is broken on 10:33 - Jan 4 with 1800 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| The system is broken on 10:21 - Jan 4 by nrb1985 |
Booo - down with ambition. |
Or rather, down with ambition unsupported by any competence or talent... | |
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| The system is broken on 11:06 - Jan 4 with 1710 views | homer_123 |
| The system is broken on 10:33 - Jan 4 by Ewan_Oozami |
Or rather, down with ambition unsupported by any competence or talent... |
Be nice for us to have a slight change of mindset though where competence and talent are recognised and not despised. |  |
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| The system is broken on 11:06 - Jan 4 with 1705 views | Herbivore |
| The system is broken on 09:47 - Jan 4 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
I still think this is somewhat the wrong people to focus on but always a media favourite. The vast majority of them will contribute a huge amount to the treasury on PAYE and CGT. It’s not out of kilter with their European peers. In fact, often their pay is challenged by investors so it isn’t totally unchecked. It’s huge money, but less than many footballers, and we are a nation with 171 billionaires who hold most of their assets offshore, and landed families that don’t even work. We even fawn over a family of tax dodging billionaires who waft around the world and wave at people now and again.
My main gripe with these CEO’s is, like football managers they are rewarded with huge payoffs for failure. Anyone else who loses their firm millions is out the door without a penny. |
It's not really an either/or. It's possible to be appalled by both massive wage inequality and those who accumulate and hoard wealth through other means. | |
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| The system is broken on 11:07 - Jan 4 with 1700 views | Herbivore |
| The system is broken on 10:05 - Jan 4 by WD19 |
Why bother gerrymandering the numbers to make the outcome 1 hour worse as though that makes it more sensational!? The underlying truth is a story in itself.
As I said above, it is totally self defeating. Bending the truth switches people off and in this case it serves no purpose. Its lazy (at best). |
It switches off people, like yourself it seems, who care not a jot for the underlying message. | |
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| The system is broken on 11:12 - Jan 4 with 1660 views | Churchman |
| The system is broken on 10:31 - Jan 4 by NthQldITFC |
Yes, but it's the principle of the thing. Pointless, excessive greed is celebrated and encouraged and the price society as a whole pays for that (let alone our dying planet) is a destructive culture of 'me-first-fkcu-you' no matter what the consequences for everybody in the end.
If we don't change the culture we're doomed. |
Agree with this. I would add:
1. There is no correlation between what these people are paid and their performance. Nor is there any penalty for failure. After RBS failed, Goodwin had his pension reduced to £800k PA. He felt the pain then. Errr maybe not.
2. Trickle down economics doesn’t work. It’s been known for years. So why do our numbskulls persist with it? The answer is here.
https://www.lse.ac.uk/research/research-for-the-world/economics/tax-cuts-for-the
3. With regard to the comment in this thread re inflation, supply issues and devaluation, look no further than Brexit. A really good method of smashing your supply chains and fuelling inflation. How much did the £ fall after 2016? It never recovered. Nor will it.
4. There has been little investment in this country in nearly 8 years now. Nor will there be until this government is removed. They don’t believe in it. Not just plant and projects. People. Do the tories believe in education, both academic and vocational? Of course not.
5. The key to improving things really is changing the culture as Nth says above.
Random thoughts |  | | |
| The system is broken on 11:12 - Jan 4 with 1659 views | DJR |
Interesting to note from the following passage that Starmer doesn't appear to be following the warning from John McDonnell.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/jan/04/john-mcdonnell-labour-britain-f
Starmer says he wants to achieve clean power [electricity generation] by 2030. He has said the £28bn will be ramped up in the second half of the parliament. He says it will include money already put in by the government. The rest will come from borrowing. But if the fiscal rules do not allow that borrowing, it won’t happen, he says. [Post edited 4 Jan 11:16]
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