| The system is broken 08:47 - Jan 4 with 3819 views | Herbivore |
This kind of gross inequality benefits no one, it contributes to the worst off remaining the worst off and it corrupts the wealthiest too. People in the middle get conned into thinking that they have more in common with those at the top and so support the status quo, when in truth they are far, far closer to those at the bottom. This kind of inequality corrodes societies and leads to nothing but unhappiness.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67877235
Happy new year! |  |
| |  |
| The system is broken on 11:13 - Jan 4 with 954 views | BlueBadger |
| The system is broken on 10:21 - Jan 4 by nrb1985 |
Booo - down with ambition. |
If only MORE people had thought to have CEOs for friends and relations so that THEY could get high placed jobs in firms too.
Pure laziness. |  |
| |
| The system is broken on 11:14 - Jan 4 with 963 views | lowhouseblue |
| The system is broken on 09:34 - Jan 4 by WD19 |
Some of the maths used here is dreadful. Clickbait at its worst.
Part of the reason nothing registers or improves is that the debate gets sullied with this kind of nonsense every year. |
why is the maths dreadful? |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| The system is broken on 11:16 - Jan 4 with 937 views | nrb1985 |
| The system is broken on 11:13 - Jan 4 by BlueBadger |
If only MORE people had thought to have CEOs for friends and relations so that THEY could get high placed jobs in firms too.
Pure laziness. |
Not sure how you've extrapolated out what I said to this but ok, cool. |  | | |
| The system is broken on 11:23 - Jan 4 with 899 views | BlueBadger |
| The system is broken on 09:35 - Jan 4 by Mullet |
Blair spent huge amounts on schools and social projects like SureStart the EMA etc which have all been ripped down in the meantime by Cameron et all.
Had those sort of initiatives remained in place for a generation we'd likely have far less antisocial behaviour, gaps in the education system etc.
That's not to deify Blair, but I also don't think Corbyn is a good example because his leadership was so poor he was even more detached from reality. Ultimately, that's why he was such a dismal failure and cult figure instead of a credible alternative. |
This is the thing isn't it? A better communicator than him with some actual leadership skills might have made a better fist of things with some of the 2019 manifesto and policies than the Dear Leader did. | |
| |
| The system is broken on 11:25 - Jan 4 with 908 views | nrb1985 |
| The system is broken on 11:12 - Jan 4 by Churchman |
Agree with this. I would add:
1. There is no correlation between what these people are paid and their performance. Nor is there any penalty for failure. After RBS failed, Goodwin had his pension reduced to £800k PA. He felt the pain then. Errr maybe not.
2. Trickle down economics doesn’t work. It’s been known for years. So why do our numbskulls persist with it? The answer is here.
https://www.lse.ac.uk/research/research-for-the-world/economics/tax-cuts-for-the
3. With regard to the comment in this thread re inflation, supply issues and devaluation, look no further than Brexit. A really good method of smashing your supply chains and fuelling inflation. How much did the £ fall after 2016? It never recovered. Nor will it.
4. There has been little investment in this country in nearly 8 years now. Nor will there be until this government is removed. They don’t believe in it. Not just plant and projects. People. Do the tories believe in education, both academic and vocational? Of course not.
5. The key to improving things really is changing the culture as Nth says above.
Random thoughts |
Disagree fundamentally with point 1, CEO pay is discretionary in the majority and linked to performance, the example you've highlighted there is never the less unpalatable I agree.
Spot on with points 2 through 4 which could all be put under "13 years of dreadful, moronic and immoral government". Albeit, worth noting that lack of investment goes back even to Blair but has been exacerbated significantly by the current shambolic and useless govt.
As per my first post in this chain - I think the OPs ire is misguided at CEOs and should be re-directed at the absolutely abject political class we have in this country and the c-nts at the right wing newspapers that do everything to keep them there for the gain of a very small minority and the detriment of the rest of the country. | | | |
| The system is broken on 11:36 - Jan 4 with 874 views | lowhouseblue |
| The system is broken on 11:25 - Jan 4 by nrb1985 |
Disagree fundamentally with point 1, CEO pay is discretionary in the majority and linked to performance, the example you've highlighted there is never the less unpalatable I agree.
Spot on with points 2 through 4 which could all be put under "13 years of dreadful, moronic and immoral government". Albeit, worth noting that lack of investment goes back even to Blair but has been exacerbated significantly by the current shambolic and useless govt.
As per my first post in this chain - I think the OPs ire is misguided at CEOs and should be re-directed at the absolutely abject political class we have in this country and the c-nts at the right wing newspapers that do everything to keep them there for the gain of a very small minority and the detriment of the rest of the country. |
the research on the ceo pay performance link is that it is weak. what pay varies with is also separate from its absolute level - and the justification for the absolute level is generally lacking. all the evidence is that we have a serious failure of corporate governance in the setting of ceo rewards. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| The system is broken on 11:40 - Jan 4 with 859 views | oldbeardy |
The Resolution Foundation produced a good report recently that sets out how the UK might best move forward from a pretty underwhelming current state of affairs - worth a read of the summary. Basically stop pretending we are a great country and start focusing on the things we actually are good at rather than what we used to be good at. And as others here have said, direct investment accordingly. | | | |
| The system is broken on 11:41 - Jan 4 with 848 views | nrb1985 |
| The system is broken on 11:36 - Jan 4 by lowhouseblue |
the research on the ceo pay performance link is that it is weak. what pay varies with is also separate from its absolute level - and the justification for the absolute level is generally lacking. all the evidence is that we have a serious failure of corporate governance in the setting of ceo rewards. |
I don't know what research you refer to but most if not all CEO pay comprises a fixed salary and discretionary bonuses/benefits that are usually linked to things like share price. The fixed salary is usually much much much smaller than the possible discretionary element.
We can obviously debate whether share price is the best metric to judge performance on but never the less, there is obviously a relationship between company performance and its share price in the main I'm sure you'll agree.
Unless there is another metric you might consider using? | | | |
Login to get fewer ads
| The system is broken on 11:45 - Jan 4 with 813 views | NthQldITFC |
| The system is broken on 11:36 - Jan 4 by lowhouseblue |
the research on the ceo pay performance link is that it is weak. what pay varies with is also separate from its absolute level - and the justification for the absolute level is generally lacking. all the evidence is that we have a serious failure of corporate governance in the setting of ceo rewards. |
At the end of the day, what does a CEO actually do?
Take or rubber stamp strategic decisions based on the advice of more junior executives, which is based on the advice and the work or advice of still more junior people.
Face the board | Face the public. (Two faces)
Stop the buck? Not so much.
 |  |
| # WE ARE STEALING THE FUTURE FROM OUR CHILDREN --- WE MUST CHANGE COURSE # | | Poll: | It's driving me nuts |
| |
| The system is broken on 11:51 - Jan 4 with 793 views | Herbivore |
| The system is broken on 11:25 - Jan 4 by nrb1985 |
Disagree fundamentally with point 1, CEO pay is discretionary in the majority and linked to performance, the example you've highlighted there is never the less unpalatable I agree.
Spot on with points 2 through 4 which could all be put under "13 years of dreadful, moronic and immoral government". Albeit, worth noting that lack of investment goes back even to Blair but has been exacerbated significantly by the current shambolic and useless govt.
As per my first post in this chain - I think the OPs ire is misguided at CEOs and should be re-directed at the absolutely abject political class we have in this country and the c-nts at the right wing newspapers that do everything to keep them there for the gain of a very small minority and the detriment of the rest of the country. |
You do realise it's possible to have ire directed in more than one place, right? | |
| |
| The system is broken on 11:52 - Jan 4 with 791 views | lowhouseblue |
| The system is broken on 11:41 - Jan 4 by nrb1985 |
I don't know what research you refer to but most if not all CEO pay comprises a fixed salary and discretionary bonuses/benefits that are usually linked to things like share price. The fixed salary is usually much much much smaller than the possible discretionary element.
We can obviously debate whether share price is the best metric to judge performance on but never the less, there is obviously a relationship between company performance and its share price in the main I'm sure you'll agree.
Unless there is another metric you might consider using? |
it's the academic research. yes you can certainly debate whether share price is the right metric - does it reflect individual contribution or is individual contribution swamped by other factors and movements in the market in either direction etc? but the more specific issue that the academic research has looked at is how exactly is the link to share price calibrated? the most common form is through some variation upon options - but how do you set the option price? the view is that it is very often set in a way that it can hardly fail to reward the ceo even for poor or bang average performance. it isn't enough just to say pay is linked in some way to share price - the incentive justification depends on exactly how it is linked? what level of performance gives a bonus and how big is the bonus. there is lots of evidence that this is generally done badly - hence the view that it's a serious failure of corporate governance. [Post edited 4 Jan 11:53]
| |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| The system is broken on 11:53 - Jan 4 with 773 views | Herbivore |
| The system is broken on 11:14 - Jan 4 by lowhouseblue |
why is the maths dreadful? |
He later suggested it's an hour out and apparently that means the message is irrelevant. | |
| |
| The system is broken on 11:53 - Jan 4 with 763 views | BlueBadger |
| The system is broken on 11:40 - Jan 4 by oldbeardy |
The Resolution Foundation produced a good report recently that sets out how the UK might best move forward from a pretty underwhelming current state of affairs - worth a read of the summary. Basically stop pretending we are a great country and start focusing on the things we actually are good at rather than what we used to be good at. And as others here have said, direct investment accordingly. |
What we're mostly good at in this country now is petty xenophobia and enriching the top with moderate level corruption.
I'm not sure that's going to fix much given we've spent most of the last decade playing to that anyway. [Post edited 4 Jan 12:09]
| |
| |
| The system is broken on 12:21 - Jan 4 with 712 views | oldbeardy |
| The system is broken on 11:53 - Jan 4 by BlueBadger |
What we're mostly good at in this country now is petty xenophobia and enriching the top with moderate level corruption.
I'm not sure that's going to fix much given we've spent most of the last decade playing to that anyway. [Post edited 4 Jan 12:09]
|
I think it makes some helpful suggestions and their analysis, by all accounts based on high quality input and research, reaches different conclusions to yours. | | | |
| The system is broken on 12:31 - Jan 4 with 674 views | longtimefan |
| The system is broken on 11:53 - Jan 4 by Herbivore |
He later suggested it's an hour out and apparently that means the message is irrelevant. |
I must admit I'm a bit dubious about the claim " £1,170 per hour - 109 times the average full-time worker". That would make the average hourly rate £10.73, which is only slightly above minimum wage and make the average earnings no more than around £22K. I thought it was around £27K.
Edit: Actually according to ONS it's nearer £35K median for full time employees.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworking [Post edited 4 Jan 12:34]
| | | |
| The system is broken on 12:38 - Jan 4 with 656 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| The system is broken on 11:06 - Jan 4 by homer_123 |
Be nice for us to have a slight change of mindset though where competence and talent are recognised and not despised. |
Good point! I guess it depends where the competence and talent lie - if it's in sacking loads of people and asset stripping, then maybe not such a good thing! |  |
| |
| The system is broken on 12:43 - Jan 4 with 650 views | ChampionsofInnsbruck |
I don't disagree with the sentiment, but at the same time as someone on the bottom I am still better off than I was from say around 1999-2005 when I really was poor, and the gulf between me and the middle class was still quite massive even then. The issue is the bulk of people who vote, don't care so long as the have a house, car and a couple of nice holidays every year. |  | | |
| The system is broken on 12:43 - Jan 4 with 650 views | Herbivore |
| The system is broken on 12:31 - Jan 4 by longtimefan |
I must admit I'm a bit dubious about the claim " £1,170 per hour - 109 times the average full-time worker". That would make the average hourly rate £10.73, which is only slightly above minimum wage and make the average earnings no more than around £22K. I thought it was around £27K.
Edit: Actually according to ONS it's nearer £35K median for full time employees.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworking [Post edited 4 Jan 12:34]
|
The hourly figure is wrong but the average remuneration package of £3.81m is 109 times greater than the median annual salary so they've gone wrong somewhere, either underestimating the average hourly rate or not including bonuses and benefits in the hourly rate so that it doesn't reflect their total remuneration package. | |
| |
| The system is broken on 13:57 - Jan 4 with 590 views | King_ding_a_lin_g |
| The system is broken on 11:14 - Jan 4 by lowhouseblue |
why is the maths dreadful? |
It's not... if the average full time employee works 63 hours/week. |  | | |
| The system is broken on 14:02 - Jan 4 with 546 views | WD19 |
| The system is broken on 11:53 - Jan 4 by Herbivore |
He later suggested it's an hour out and apparently that means the message is irrelevant. |
That's not what I said at all. You just decided to be a down-votey bellend about it.
I was....as I made clear....supportive of the underlying message. That is one of the reasons I was frustrated that it was being undermined by the wonky maths and clickbaitery of the approach. |  | | |
| The system is broken on 14:09 - Jan 4 with 522 views | DJR |
If you have the time, these are worth a read, but don't look to either of the main parties to do anything about it because they are wedded to the current economic system.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/aug/18/neoliberalism-the-idea-that-changed
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/03098168211022208
The second article begins with the following abstract.
Drawing on 25 qualitative interviews, this paper attends to and critiques neoliberalism to demonstrate how management’s enforcement of targets and the expectancy to overwork in various workplaces corrodes the relationship between managers and employees. First, the paper briefly charts how the shift from post-war Keynesian welfare state capitalism to neoliberalism in the global north placed renewed emphasis on maximising profitability, and what this meant for working methods and innovations that managers now use to make an organisation more efficient. This is often regarded as ‘management practices’. It then connects management practices to the political economy and therefore sheds further empirical light on how management practices under neoliberalism impact adversely on workers, generating psychological distress, instability, pressure and a negative working environment. The paper closes with a discussion of how managers potentially perform an ideological function, directing workers’ attention away from neoliberalism and cementing capitalist realism; the negative ideological belief that there is no alternative to the current political economy. [Post edited 4 Jan 14:12]
|  | | |
| The system is broken on 14:15 - Jan 4 with 495 views | Herbivore |
| The system is broken on 14:02 - Jan 4 by WD19 |
That's not what I said at all. You just decided to be a down-votey bellend about it.
I was....as I made clear....supportive of the underlying message. That is one of the reasons I was frustrated that it was being undermined by the wonky maths and clickbaitery of the approach. |
So when you posted this: "Why bother gerrymandering the numbers to make the outcome 1 hour worse as though that makes it more sensational!?" you weren't suggesting they were an hour out? Perhaps you should express yourself more clearly if that's not what you meant. | |
| |
| The system is broken on 14:46 - Jan 4 with 434 views | WD19 |
| The system is broken on 14:15 - Jan 4 by Herbivore |
So when you posted this: "Why bother gerrymandering the numbers to make the outcome 1 hour worse as though that makes it more sensational!?" you weren't suggesting they were an hour out? Perhaps you should express yourself more clearly if that's not what you meant. |
My point was, and is, that they skewed the maths to make the headline as sensational as possible and that it was unnecessary and unhelpful. Whether that moved the dial by 1 hour or one day I have no idea.
For example, I think they included pensions in the CEO package, but not the calculation of the average worker. Why? Doing the maths properly wouldn't have materially changed the story, so why do it. It distracts.
2 years ago this calendarised 24 hour news-fodder had the average CEO earning more than their workers by the 6th Jan. It doesn't matter if it is the 4th, 5th, 6th. Why undermine the whole point by deliberately (and we have to assume it was deliberately) gerrymandering the numbers!? | | | |
| The system is broken on 15:10 - Jan 4 with 403 views | Herbivore |
| The system is broken on 14:46 - Jan 4 by WD19 |
My point was, and is, that they skewed the maths to make the headline as sensational as possible and that it was unnecessary and unhelpful. Whether that moved the dial by 1 hour or one day I have no idea.
For example, I think they included pensions in the CEO package, but not the calculation of the average worker. Why? Doing the maths properly wouldn't have materially changed the story, so why do it. It distracts.
2 years ago this calendarised 24 hour news-fodder had the average CEO earning more than their workers by the 6th Jan. It doesn't matter if it is the 4th, 5th, 6th. Why undermine the whole point by deliberately (and we have to assume it was deliberately) gerrymandering the numbers!? |
They are only undermining the point for those who seek a reason for it to be undermined, imo. As you rightly mention, whatever day it falls on in the first week of January it's a scandal, so why be a Karen about the calculations instead of engaging with what it highlights about the gross inequality that exists in our society? | |
| |
| The system is broken on 15:28 - Jan 4 with 369 views | Buhrer |
Looks like their systems working quite well for those running things, with no way to change it from below. Best paid work is in protecting the rich and money.
Democracy only garlands the chains of their tyranny. |  | | |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
