| Farage releases a statement 08:43 - Aug 5 with 9685 views | Mullet |
Blaming the BLM stuff and harking back to it is very interesting, especially as he was one of the main voices shouting “two tier policing”
I wonder why he’s not been firing off tweets rampantly this time? Or giving interviews? Sounds like the shoe is finally about to drop on him hopefully. [Post edited 5 Aug 2024 10:31]
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| Farage releases a statement on 18:55 - Aug 5 with 1109 views | reusersfreekicks |
| Farage releases a statement on 14:41 - Aug 5 by Europablue |
I'm afraid you are so desperate to have a hate figure that you will ignore any truth within what I say.
You might have a childish goodies and badies attitude. None of us want political violence from any group. Actually, I won't speak for you. I will just say that I don't want to see political violence from any group.
I just don't think your plan of calling everyone racist and fascist is really working. We have to look at things away from the emotions of the situation and think what might actually improve the situation going forward.
People should form their own opinions about others, listening blindly to idiots on the internet is why these organized attacks have taken place in the first place. |
I am not desperate to have a hate figure and am not in need of goodies and baddies. You try to paint me as the irrational one! That's laughable when from the off you have sought to distract and rationalise. What we are seeing is a thouroughly unpleasant rise in extreme right violence and bullying. I have consistently objected, as have many others, to your varied and inconsistent attempts to explain away these horrific attacks on innocent people and the police as having some kind of social legitimacy |  | | |
| Farage releases a statement on 22:53 - Aug 5 with 975 views | Europablue |
| Farage releases a statement on 17:19 - Aug 5 by BlueBadger |
Imagine calling yourself 'Europa' and then turning out to support Nigel Farage's grifting. |
I'm sure you witty one-liner will gain you many up arrows.
One can live on the continent and be critical of the European Union.
I voted remain, but I think culturally I'm a leaver. There are good and bad things about the EU.
I used to hate Farage and laugh at him when he lost elections. I used to accept news from trusted sources like the BBC and the Telegraph without assuming that there was an agenda.
When I started looking at things more critically and seeing what terrible treatment some people were ok with Farage getting because they don't like him, it made me think. Political violence is similar to free speech in that you have to stick up for those that you don't agree with to be able to say what they want (then use your free speech to counter the argument as necessary) and particularly condemn political violence against your political enemies.
I will listen to what Farage says and consider what he actually said rather than what everyone else is saying. I never believe something just because someone told me to.
What I respect in a politician is someone who is there for their deeply held views even if they go against my beliefs. I do not respect politicians like almost all Conservatives and Labour politicians who are only motivated by staying in power. |  | | |
| Farage releases a statement on 22:55 - Aug 5 with 970 views | Europablue |
| Farage releases a statement on 17:27 - Aug 5 by eireblue |
“.. I don't know the details exactly, but I think the suspect is a legal immigrant…”
I can see the problem you have been writing so much stuff on this topic you haven’t had time to check.
If you are referring to the tragedy in Southport, it was a U.K. citizen born in Cardiff that was arrested. Hope that helps. |
Thank you for the information.
I only didn't check the details because they weren't relevant to the general point I was making. | | | |
| Farage releases a statement on 23:01 - Aug 5 with 953 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Farage releases a statement on 22:53 - Aug 5 by Europablue |
I'm sure you witty one-liner will gain you many up arrows.
One can live on the continent and be critical of the European Union.
I voted remain, but I think culturally I'm a leaver. There are good and bad things about the EU.
I used to hate Farage and laugh at him when he lost elections. I used to accept news from trusted sources like the BBC and the Telegraph without assuming that there was an agenda.
When I started looking at things more critically and seeing what terrible treatment some people were ok with Farage getting because they don't like him, it made me think. Political violence is similar to free speech in that you have to stick up for those that you don't agree with to be able to say what they want (then use your free speech to counter the argument as necessary) and particularly condemn political violence against your political enemies.
I will listen to what Farage says and consider what he actually said rather than what everyone else is saying. I never believe something just because someone told me to.
What I respect in a politician is someone who is there for their deeply held views even if they go against my beliefs. I do not respect politicians like almost all Conservatives and Labour politicians who are only motivated by staying in power. |
You will have noted then, that he is other siding, dishonestly "posing questions" based on half facts at best to foment unrest, and generally grifting. | | | |
| Farage releases a statement on 23:06 - Aug 5 with 936 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Farage releases a statement on 14:24 - Aug 5 by Europablue |
I laid out my thought about the economic and immigration problems in a previous post, so please refer to that if you want to.
I think baxterbasics made a good point about recalling parliament, so I would only support recalling Parliament if there was a material reason to do so and not just for the sake of posturing. That doesn't necessarily mean that there needs to be new legislation. It could help to have a debate acknowledging that there are two separate issues that have been mixed together my misinformation and misguided actions (misguided meaning directed in the wrong direction, not to excuse any actions that deserve heavy punishment). On the one hand, there is a tragedy that has rightly got a lot of people angry. I don't know the details exactly, but I think the suspect is a legal immigrant. On the level of national interest, it is worse when a criminal is an illegal immigrant because the government had the power for that person not to be in country in the first place. If as I believe, he was a legal immigrant, there may still be some relevant questions, but it's not much different from a citizen committing a horrific act.
On the other hand is historic terrorist attacks that were carried out by extremist Muslims and the gang abuse of young girls mostly, I think, by Pakistani Muslims and the response from the police and successive governments.
There is legitimate anger about these two things. I'm angry about them, I'd imagine that you are and everyone else posting here is angry about them.
Some people jumped to conclusions, there might have even been people maliciously directing that legitimate anger in an illegitimate direction. As a result innocent people were targeted. There is no excuse for not doing proper research, they are responsible for the actions and should be punished by the law.
The new government isn't directly responsible for these social issues, but they are directly responsible for how they respond to them. It is inflammatory to refer to everyone who thinks there is a problem as racist and far-right.
Two things are true at the same time. That horrible tragedy was highjacked and that must have made a horrific situation even worse for the families of the victims.
There is still an underlying issue with equally enforcing the law and prosecuting all groups under the law and general integration. |
"I don't know the details exactly, but I think the suspect is a legal immigrant."
The "suspect" was born here. And raised in a Christian family.
What better illustration of the dishonest, malicious misinformation being fed to and by people like you and Farage, and Yaxley Lennon. [Post edited 5 Aug 2024 23:06]
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| Farage releases a statement on 23:06 - Aug 5 with 934 views | Europablue |
| Farage releases a statement on 17:32 - Aug 5 by BlueBadger |
I don't think we should be listening to the V Real Concerns of nazis mate. [Post edited 6 Aug 2024 15:13]
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It feels like you are trying to ignore my entire point.
There are general concerns held by a lot of people who are not violent, just because violent people have those same or similar concerns it doesn't make them invalid.
Think of it along the lines of other situations.
IRA terrorists killed a lot of innocent civilians, but the cause of Irish independence or of Northern Ireland reverting back to being part of Ireland is a legitimate view whether you or I agree or disagree.
Looting and misdirected anger in American race riots did not mean that it was acceptable to beat Rodney King.
Raising a concern about how we are dealing with immigration is not that same thing as attacking a mosque.
Just because Nazis revered the family, it doesn't mean we have to hate the concept of a family.
Free your mind from thinking along a guided path and just think for yourself on each individual issue and each aspect of each issue. | | | |
| Farage releases a statement on 23:07 - Aug 5 with 934 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Farage releases a statement on 22:53 - Aug 5 by Europablue |
I'm sure you witty one-liner will gain you many up arrows.
One can live on the continent and be critical of the European Union.
I voted remain, but I think culturally I'm a leaver. There are good and bad things about the EU.
I used to hate Farage and laugh at him when he lost elections. I used to accept news from trusted sources like the BBC and the Telegraph without assuming that there was an agenda.
When I started looking at things more critically and seeing what terrible treatment some people were ok with Farage getting because they don't like him, it made me think. Political violence is similar to free speech in that you have to stick up for those that you don't agree with to be able to say what they want (then use your free speech to counter the argument as necessary) and particularly condemn political violence against your political enemies.
I will listen to what Farage says and consider what he actually said rather than what everyone else is saying. I never believe something just because someone told me to.
What I respect in a politician is someone who is there for their deeply held views even if they go against my beliefs. I do not respect politicians like almost all Conservatives and Labour politicians who are only motivated by staying in power. |
I feel a bit sad reading that. |  |
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| Farage releases a statement on 23:13 - Aug 5 with 907 views | Europablue |
| Farage releases a statement on 17:40 - Aug 5 by eireblue |
Well I am glad you will stop using the term working class in relation to this.
But I fear, you are in danger of doing the same thing again, lots of un-employed people will not have rioted, also we can see that many of the people arrested and charged are employed.
So I really don’t think you can use terms like “lots” without adequate data.
No, I think the one thing we can say, with a degree of accuracy, is a group of people throwing things and being violent to Muslims, whilst chanting racist things, really can be accurately described as far- right thugs.
It is accurate and fits with the known data, and videos, and is the most specific thing we know about these people, from the available evidence.
Also, I am minded to say, over the last ohhhh, let’s say 14 years there have been plenty of people that feel like they don’t have a stake in society.
But there haven’t been regular riots on this scale, whereby people in such a state have decide to attack a specific part of U.K. society.
No it really does seem that these have been sparked off by far right wing thugs, using wrong data, to encourage other far right wing thugs to do thuggish things.
Honestly, it does seem the term that fits most accurately. |
I totally follow your argument.
The only problem I have is with the whole right-wing categorization. Culturally Muslims are generally very conservative, so are they right-wing? Are they far right?
I hope we could all agree that being left-wing and right-wing are not necessarily bad, but we would categorize the far left and far right as extremist. | | | |
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| Farage releases a statement on 23:23 - Aug 5 with 859 views | eireblue |
| Farage releases a statement on 23:13 - Aug 5 by Europablue |
I totally follow your argument.
The only problem I have is with the whole right-wing categorization. Culturally Muslims are generally very conservative, so are they right-wing? Are they far right?
I hope we could all agree that being left-wing and right-wing are not necessarily bad, but we would categorize the far left and far right as extremist. |
Excellent, so if you follow my argument, you will now refer to the people that have been starting the riots as far right thugs. Good. |  | | |
| Farage releases a statement on 23:27 - Aug 5 with 844 views | Europablue |
| Farage releases a statement on 18:26 - Aug 5 by Kropotkin123 |
"This violence and intimidation is entirely unacceptable and will be punished to the full extent of the law. In our system we use peaceful protest as a means to let our voices be heard. We will listen to your grievances when they are presented in an appropriate manner"
I'm sorry, but it's like your post is oblivious to how the country has been run and the policies the conservatives introduced during their period of governance.
Politicians have spent over a decade listening and pursuing right-wing immigration policies. It's led to us pursuing policies like leaving the EU and all the instability that came from it.
It's time to stop listening to the right-wing and start pursuing evidence-based immigration policies and communication.
What we are seeing now is not based on immigration, it is based on racism. No one who has genuine concerns around immigration needs to be attacking people and setting fire to buildings. |
What were the right wing immigration policies? The Conservatives never really dealt with immigration. The rhetoric may have been different, but the net result looks very similar when you look at immigration statistics for the last 25 years.
I don't understand what your stance to immigration would be. Do you think there should be more immigration? Is that what a more left wing approach would be?
I think we can all agree that drownings in the channel are tragic and they are mostly a result of people smugglers taking advantage of vulnerable people. I just do not understand why asylum seekers do not stop at the first safe country they come to. France just allows channel crossings because it is convenient for them.
The instability from leaving the EU was because there wasn't a clear majority for the decision, and people who voted against Brexit did everything they could to make it a failure. If 75% voted for it, then it would have been much better. The same goes for if 75% voted remain.
You are arguing against something that I never said. "No one who has genuine concerns around immigration needs to be attacking people and setting fire to buildings." That is a starting point that anyone reasonable can agree on. | | | |
| Farage releases a statement on 23:33 - Aug 5 with 826 views | Europablue |
| Farage releases a statement on 18:34 - Aug 5 by Swansea_Blue |
He could have a point though about 2nd generation immigrants. We have conclusive proof that they can have neither the overall country's interests at heart nor those of the population. We've seen that from Sue Ellen Braverman, Kwasi Kwarteng, Priti Patel, Jimmy Dimly, Sajiid Javid (one of the least worse in fairness), Rishi Sunak, Zia Yusuf (Reform Chair) and, surprisingly, Dominic Raab. I hadn't realised or had forgotten the Raabster was a second generation immigrant (father was a Czech jew who was given sanctuary here in WWII).
But yes, spot on. If people spent as much time checking information as they did reading it and taking it at face value, we'd be in a much better place. |
I get that you are joking, and maybe it's worth a wry smile.
But you are also kind of saying that second generation immigrants need to hold your exact beliefs. Anyone who is truly anti-racist/non-xenophobe should recognize the rights of non-white people or those who are not ethnically English to hold whatever view they will. | | | |
| Farage releases a statement on 23:34 - Aug 5 with 825 views | reusersfreekicks |
| Farage releases a statement on 23:27 - Aug 5 by Europablue |
What were the right wing immigration policies? The Conservatives never really dealt with immigration. The rhetoric may have been different, but the net result looks very similar when you look at immigration statistics for the last 25 years.
I don't understand what your stance to immigration would be. Do you think there should be more immigration? Is that what a more left wing approach would be?
I think we can all agree that drownings in the channel are tragic and they are mostly a result of people smugglers taking advantage of vulnerable people. I just do not understand why asylum seekers do not stop at the first safe country they come to. France just allows channel crossings because it is convenient for them.
The instability from leaving the EU was because there wasn't a clear majority for the decision, and people who voted against Brexit did everything they could to make it a failure. If 75% voted for it, then it would have been much better. The same goes for if 75% voted remain.
You are arguing against something that I never said. "No one who has genuine concerns around immigration needs to be attacking people and setting fire to buildings." That is a starting point that anyone reasonable can agree on. |
The EU paragraph is nonsense. Brexit would always have been a catastrophe whoever tried to enact it. It made no economic sense and that is now obvious.
Even if it had been 100% in favour this would not have changed | | | |
| Farage releases a statement on 23:42 - Aug 5 with 811 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Farage releases a statement on 23:33 - Aug 5 by Europablue |
I get that you are joking, and maybe it's worth a wry smile.
But you are also kind of saying that second generation immigrants need to hold your exact beliefs. Anyone who is truly anti-racist/non-xenophobe should recognize the rights of non-white people or those who are not ethnically English to hold whatever view they will. |
Second generation immigrants can do what they want. They can even become PM. That was my point. Don’t judge people by the colour of their skin or by where they or their parents come from. Judge people by their actions. Do that and your immigration problem goes away. | |
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| Farage releases a statement on 23:44 - Aug 5 with 808 views | Europablue |
| Farage releases a statement on 18:55 - Aug 5 by reusersfreekicks |
I am not desperate to have a hate figure and am not in need of goodies and baddies. You try to paint me as the irrational one! That's laughable when from the off you have sought to distract and rationalise. What we are seeing is a thouroughly unpleasant rise in extreme right violence and bullying. I have consistently objected, as have many others, to your varied and inconsistent attempts to explain away these horrific attacks on innocent people and the police as having some kind of social legitimacy |
You sound pretty unhinged calling me a Nazi!
You purposefully ignored what I said when it is inconvenient for your argument.
My entire argument is that I'm against the actions of these people. They are not even acting on true information. I guess you agree with that.
The other part of my argument is that unless we address the underlying social issues especially, regarding immigration. This kind of thing will just keep happening again and again.
I think you would agree with me in saying that we didn't want this to happen and we certainly don't want it to happen again.
The reason I think you want a hate figure is because you can't show respect and common courtesy to those who disagree with you even a little. Violence will be the ultimate result of shutting down political opponents and not allowing public discourse. | | | |
| Farage releases a statement on 23:45 - Aug 5 with 807 views | positivity |
| Farage releases a statement on 23:34 - Aug 5 by reusersfreekicks |
The EU paragraph is nonsense. Brexit would always have been a catastrophe whoever tried to enact it. It made no economic sense and that is now obvious.
Even if it had been 100% in favour this would not have changed |
absolutely; it was a stupid idea, economically suicidal, let alone the cultural disaster.
also, the small boats problem was never big whilst we were in the eu as we had cooperation agreements with france. boris/nf et al signed that away along with so much else to appease the right-wing in his party and ukip | |
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| Farage releases a statement on 23:45 - Aug 5 with 807 views | eireblue |
| Farage releases a statement on 22:55 - Aug 5 by Europablue |
Thank you for the information.
I only didn't check the details because they weren't relevant to the general point I was making. |
Well then, best to leave any unnecessary speculation out of your posts would be my recommendation.
Stick to the thing you are trying to say, and use relevant facts, of course
And paragraphs, paragraphs really help the reader. | | | |
| Farage releases a statement on 05:03 - Aug 6 with 679 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Farage releases a statement on 23:27 - Aug 5 by Europablue |
What were the right wing immigration policies? The Conservatives never really dealt with immigration. The rhetoric may have been different, but the net result looks very similar when you look at immigration statistics for the last 25 years.
I don't understand what your stance to immigration would be. Do you think there should be more immigration? Is that what a more left wing approach would be?
I think we can all agree that drownings in the channel are tragic and they are mostly a result of people smugglers taking advantage of vulnerable people. I just do not understand why asylum seekers do not stop at the first safe country they come to. France just allows channel crossings because it is convenient for them.
The instability from leaving the EU was because there wasn't a clear majority for the decision, and people who voted against Brexit did everything they could to make it a failure. If 75% voted for it, then it would have been much better. The same goes for if 75% voted remain.
You are arguing against something that I never said. "No one who has genuine concerns around immigration needs to be attacking people and setting fire to buildings." That is a starting point that anyone reasonable can agree on. |
What were the right wing immigration policies?
In the nicest possible way, if you don't know any right-wing immigration policies from the conservative period of governance, then why are you even talking about immigration?
Three examples in brackets in the next two points.
The Conservatives never really dealt with immigration. The rhetoric may have been different, but the net result looks very similar when you look at immigration statistics for the last 25 years.
Yes, we don't need right-wing policies that fail in law (Rwanda) or distasterous economic ones to "take back our country" (Leaving the EU) to lower immigration, because they make little difference to the overall immigration numbers, and just cause issues. This is why pursuing more, with the evidence of failure, makes little sense.
I don't understand what your stance to immigration would be. Do you think there should be more immigration?
My stance is I hate the ideological nonsence that has no basis in reality - be it legal possibilities, economic consequences, industry needs, and so on. For example, we quickly realised that we need fruit-pickers (culling lower-economic applicants arbitrarily), We need nurses, and so on. We don't have enough people in this country willing or competent enough to do these jobs. As you found out, if you were willing to listen to those impacted, you can't simply cull all lower-economic immigration, and so came the climb-down.
Is that what a more left wing approach would be?
Not sure were the left stands on immigration nowadays. As I've said already, I'm for an evidence-based immigration system, which would be rejecting ideology on immigration from the left, right, and centre.
I just do not understand why asylum seekers do not stop at the first safe country they come to.
There are loads of reasons - language, communities, perceived opportunity, lies that people have told them to get their money. If you don't understand, go read about it.
France just allows channel crossings because it is convenient for them.
No, it doesn't. "The UK–France Joint Leaders’ Declaration issued in March 2023 states that France prevented 1,381 small boat crossings, carrying 33,788 people, in 2022. This equates to 42.4% of attempts to cross and 55% of small boats being intercepted by the French authorities in 2022."
Furthermore, we have paid France "more than £232 million between 2014 and the end of financial year 2022/23" for their services.
Stop regurgitating newspaper propaganda, read facts and think for yourself. Here is the source: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9681. Form your own opinion as to whether it is worth spending additional money to go after the remaining 57.6% of crossings.
The instability from leaving the EU was because there wasn't a clear majority for the decision
No, the instability was before that. David Cameron promised a vote on leaving the EU in order to secure support within his party from the more right-wing elements, and to secure an election. He saw it as an easy promise to make and with polling suggesting 54% would vote remain and 9% of people undecided (Ipsos MORI, May 2013) h didn't think it was a big risk.
The idea that it would ever get 75% either way is laughable. That our stability rested on a figure like that should immediately ring alarm bells that it was unstable from at least
You are arguing against something that I never said.
I'm aguing against mainy things you've said. Not least your idea that this "This violence and intimidation is entirely unacceptable and will be punished to the full extent of the law. In our system we use peaceful protest as a means to let our voices be heard. We will listen to your grievances when they are presented in an appropriate manner" would be an appropriate thing to say.
Final remarks
I don't intend to reply to this thread any more. So if you reply to me, fair warning (so you don't waste time), don't expect me to debate your points further, regardless of how good or bad they may be.
Please do some reading. You're asking far to many questions and making far too many unsubstantiated comments. If you still feel the same way on immigration after reading, that's fine, we all have different opinions. But at least your opinions will be more robust. If you get out of the habbit of these cookie-cutter daily mail comments like "France just allows them", which have no basis in reality, then people will respect and consider your opinion more. [Post edited 6 Aug 2024 5:11]
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| Farage releases a statement on 07:40 - Aug 6 with 592 views | Tangledupin_Blue |
| Farage releases a statement on 14:24 - Aug 5 by Europablue |
I laid out my thought about the economic and immigration problems in a previous post, so please refer to that if you want to.
I think baxterbasics made a good point about recalling parliament, so I would only support recalling Parliament if there was a material reason to do so and not just for the sake of posturing. That doesn't necessarily mean that there needs to be new legislation. It could help to have a debate acknowledging that there are two separate issues that have been mixed together my misinformation and misguided actions (misguided meaning directed in the wrong direction, not to excuse any actions that deserve heavy punishment). On the one hand, there is a tragedy that has rightly got a lot of people angry. I don't know the details exactly, but I think the suspect is a legal immigrant. On the level of national interest, it is worse when a criminal is an illegal immigrant because the government had the power for that person not to be in country in the first place. If as I believe, he was a legal immigrant, there may still be some relevant questions, but it's not much different from a citizen committing a horrific act.
On the other hand is historic terrorist attacks that were carried out by extremist Muslims and the gang abuse of young girls mostly, I think, by Pakistani Muslims and the response from the police and successive governments.
There is legitimate anger about these two things. I'm angry about them, I'd imagine that you are and everyone else posting here is angry about them.
Some people jumped to conclusions, there might have even been people maliciously directing that legitimate anger in an illegitimate direction. As a result innocent people were targeted. There is no excuse for not doing proper research, they are responsible for the actions and should be punished by the law.
The new government isn't directly responsible for these social issues, but they are directly responsible for how they respond to them. It is inflammatory to refer to everyone who thinks there is a problem as racist and far-right.
Two things are true at the same time. That horrible tragedy was highjacked and that must have made a horrific situation even worse for the families of the victims.
There is still an underlying issue with equally enforcing the law and prosecuting all groups under the law and general integration. |
Just for clarity...
The Southport suspect was born in Cardiff a child of immigrant parents and presumably has dual nationality.
In much the way that at least two of Farage's children were born in UK to an immigrant parent and have dual nationality. |  |
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| Farage releases a statement on 07:49 - Aug 6 with 566 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Farage releases a statement on 07:40 - Aug 6 by Tangledupin_Blue |
Just for clarity...
The Southport suspect was born in Cardiff a child of immigrant parents and presumably has dual nationality.
In much the way that at least two of Farage's children were born in UK to an immigrant parent and have dual nationality. |
You can prove anything with facts. [Post edited 6 Aug 2024 7:50]
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