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I mentioned recently his aerial ability over Wolfys and the below has shown it is a very important aspect of his game and one of the biggest reasons he's in the side.
We allow a lot of crosses to come into our box, plus we do concede a fair amount of set pieces from corners to freekicks so I can see why KM does find that an important attribute.
2023/24 season, Wolfy according to footy stats was in the top 71% of winning aerial duals compared to O'Shea's 98%
O'Shea will continue to start IMO because he's more aggressive / proactive / powerful defensively and is much more of a goal threat, both from set pieces and key passes. There's been a lot of noise about Archer holding him off in the second half of the Southampton game, but the weight of pass and striker play were very good during that move, as was Greaves then in pole position to tackle but he missed, sliding himself out of the play and leaving the free shot on goal. It was good covering play by Greaves before he missed, I don't mean to be too critical. Archer is the 4th fastest recorded player in the PL so far. Is O'Shea one of the fastest defenders? I know he recorded a top speed last season through his vest monitor presumably, but he doesn't look lightning quick in the flesh (not noteworthy pace in either direction for me so far).
Woolf's short passing looks to be better, both in accuracy and fluidity. If he continues to hold the upper hand here then I expect his replacement will never win over everyone. If you're replacing our academy product and want to be embraced from all quarters, you better make sure you surpass that player in every aspect of the game. I've seen positive performances and room for improvement from both so far.
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The O'Shea v Wolfy thing on 12:07 - Sep 26 with 1649 views
The O'Shea v Wolfy thing on 12:04 - Sep 26 by homer_123
That's not what people are discussing.
I don't think it is wholly wrong to assert that O'Shea has been nothing more than OK since coming in, he has some better attributes than Woolfy but also vice versa.
O'Shea is going to play, for now, as we have invested heavily on him. However, I think it is also correct to assert that, Woolfy is not far behind or even on the same level as O'Shea (depending on your viewpoint).
it was though, " i don't see an upgrade" is what has been said alot ( Not within this thread but during and after recent games)
so my point by the OP, is yes things will take time with him getting up to speed, but the stat shared shows a clear upgrade in that area of his game.
The O'Shea v Wolfy thing on 12:07 - Sep 26 by FrimleyBlue
it was though, " i don't see an upgrade" is what has been said alot ( Not within this thread but during and after recent games)
so my point by the OP, is yes things will take time with him getting up to speed, but the stat shared shows a clear upgrade in that area of his game.
But you have to look at it 'in the round'. The discussion here explains that.
You are picking 1 stat where he is 'ahead' of Woolfy, no one is disputing that. But, for example, I think Woolfy is far better at 'using the ball' playing out from the back and picking a pass.
So, for me, at the moment, when you look at the whole picture, there isn't a whole lot between them. IMHO.
Ade Akinbiyi couldn't hit a cows arse with a banjo...
This stat proves very little as there is no measure to baseline it; while O'Shea winning 9 "heading duels" sounds good, did he win 9 out of 10, or 9 out of 30.
Statistical analysis is hugely influential in football, but a lot of stats shared on social media are flawed due to the lack of background information / controls or baselines.
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The O'Shea v Wolfy thing on 12:56 - Sep 26 with 1530 views
The O'Shea v Wolfy thing on 12:46 - Sep 26 by bsw72
This stat proves very little as there is no measure to baseline it; while O'Shea winning 9 "heading duels" sounds good, did he win 9 out of 10, or 9 out of 30.
Statistical analysis is hugely influential in football, but a lot of stats shared on social media are flawed due to the lack of background information / controls or baselines.
Yes it would be better if they had the amount they have lost too.
Also, without knowing the stats, I would guess Brighton and Southampton would be teams where a lot more heading is needed compared to say Liverpool and Man City.
I'm not sure why heading is being used as the only factor and after 2 game sample, is not great either.
I don't mind stats, but you can also be fooled by stats (i'm not saying that is the case here).
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The O'Shea v Wolfy thing on 12:59 - Sep 26 with 1529 views
The O'Shea v Wolfy thing on 12:56 - Sep 26 by Vaughan8
Yes it would be better if they had the amount they have lost too.
Also, without knowing the stats, I would guess Brighton and Southampton would be teams where a lot more heading is needed compared to say Liverpool and Man City.
I'm not sure why heading is being used as the only factor and after 2 game sample, is not great either.
I don't mind stats, but you can also be fooled by stats (i'm not saying that is the case here).
It wasn't really about it being a factor, it was just when i saw plenty of " there is no upgrade" I felt his heading attributes should be applauded.
The O'Shea v Wolfy thing on 12:18 - Sep 26 by homer_123
But you have to look at it 'in the round'. The discussion here explains that.
You are picking 1 stat where he is 'ahead' of Woolfy, no one is disputing that. But, for example, I think Woolfy is far better at 'using the ball' playing out from the back and picking a pass.
So, for me, at the moment, when you look at the whole picture, there isn't a whole lot between them. IMHO.
Yeah I get that, I just think once O shea has had the same amount of training time, and game time as wolfy had with greaves and his other team mates, at that point it would be fair to be judging the two players against each other. I work out he's had 1 full weeks worth of training since he's been here. ( 2 Including this week )
I think the passing one is always going to be different as they're different types of ball players, most of wolfys passes go to his fellow CB or morsy.
The O'Shea v Wolfy thing on 13:12 - Sep 26 by FrimleyBlue
I think the passing one is always going to be different as they're different types of ball players, most of wolfys passes go to his fellow CB or morsy.
That isn't correct.
Ade Akinbiyi couldn't hit a cows arse with a banjo...
Doesn’t look like a short pass for the 2nd goal to me?
Depends on your definition doesn't it, a 10 yard pass from a freekick, straight down the middle, i thought you were gonna show a 40 yard diag assist the way you made it sound.
BTW, im not doing wolfy a disservice in regards to his passing, he's nice and crisp with them, but they are simple passes, that's absolutely fine and why we were very successful. I just don't see O shea being that sort of player so the passing qualities of the two players will always be compared incorrectly imo. Wolfy will always be the better of the two when it comes to passes, Oshea's more direct, that's not to say he's not had a ropey opening couple games ping wise, but we got a lovely glimpse of it in the opening period to Burns against Brighton and I think that's key for us in the prem to get us up the pitch quicker than previous seasons and will only get better once he's aware of our runners, their movements etc.
The O'Shea v Wolfy thing on 13:52 - Sep 26 by FrimleyBlue
Depends on your definition doesn't it, a 10 yard pass from a freekick, straight down the middle, i thought you were gonna show a 40 yard diag assist the way you made it sound.
BTW, im not doing wolfy a disservice in regards to his passing, he's nice and crisp with them, but they are simple passes, that's absolutely fine and why we were very successful. I just don't see O shea being that sort of player so the passing qualities of the two players will always be compared incorrectly imo. Wolfy will always be the better of the two when it comes to passes, Oshea's more direct, that's not to say he's not had a ropey opening couple games ping wise, but we got a lovely glimpse of it in the opening period to Burns against Brighton and I think that's key for us in the prem to get us up the pitch quicker than previous seasons and will only get better once he's aware of our runners, their movements etc.
[Post edited 26 Sep 2024 13:57]
That’s a brilliant pass, takes their centre back out of the game and creates space in behind for us to score - if you can’t recognise that and call it a ‘10 yard pass’ there’s a reason our opinions are different
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The O'Shea v Wolfy thing on 13:57 - Sep 26 with 1308 views
The O'Shea v Wolfy thing on 12:46 - Sep 26 by bsw72
This stat proves very little as there is no measure to baseline it; while O'Shea winning 9 "heading duels" sounds good, did he win 9 out of 10, or 9 out of 30.
Statistical analysis is hugely influential in football, but a lot of stats shared on social media are flawed due to the lack of background information / controls or baselines.
I think the fact that in O'Shea's case it only covers two games of football is the really limiting factor here in terms of drawing conclusions.
However, it's nice to see both centre backs in the Premier League's top 15 players for heading duels won per 90 mins, that's got to be encouraging. After all, we remain the only top flight team not to have won any kind of game this season (a few won in the Carabao that have not done so in the league), and we lost to Wimbledon on the back of two set piece deliveries (and then penalties). Knowing that the men at the back can win a header is very reassuring.
'Heading duels percentage won' would be a good stat to have for context. But the absolute number does tell us /something/ in the same way as the top scorer table does, without needing to know chance conversion percentages.
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The O'Shea v Wolfy thing on 13:58 - Sep 26 with 1300 views
That’s a brilliant pass, takes their centre back out of the game and creates space in behind for us to score - if you can’t recognise that and call it a ‘10 yard pass’ there’s a reason our opinions are different
I recognise that he's looking forwards and there's a gap to a town player and he plays a lovely ball through to him.
The O'Shea v Wolfy thing on 11:54 - Sep 26 by pointofblue
Agree though, with the final paragraph, he didn't exactly take his claim at Wimbledon. Albeit that was obviously just one game.
The Wimbledon game was just getting minutes into players legs - seemingly treated like a reserve game where each player was just told to get out there and do what you need to do for your fitness
The O'Shea v Wolfy thing on 13:57 - Sep 26 by HighgateBlue
I think the fact that in O'Shea's case it only covers two games of football is the really limiting factor here in terms of drawing conclusions.
However, it's nice to see both centre backs in the Premier League's top 15 players for heading duels won per 90 mins, that's got to be encouraging. After all, we remain the only top flight team not to have won any kind of game this season (a few won in the Carabao that have not done so in the league), and we lost to Wimbledon on the back of two set piece deliveries (and then penalties). Knowing that the men at the back can win a header is very reassuring.
'Heading duels percentage won' would be a good stat to have for context. But the absolute number does tell us /something/ in the same way as the top scorer table does, without needing to know chance conversion percentages.
According to towns own website, O'sheas won 9 out of 12 header duals, Wolfy 3 out of 6
O'shea 14 out of 18 tackles won, wolfy 4 out of 9
Duels, O'shea 14 won, wolfy 4
Wofly has a higher amount of clearences which makes sense when you think of the amount of attacks man city had.
I dunno, I like O'shea, i just think he's not a passer like wolfy so because of this any other mistake he makes is seen as a downgrade when wolfys available despite statistically O'shea shining in the defensive areas.
The O'Shea v Wolfy thing on 11:56 - Sep 26 by FrimleyBlue
I just find the expectation of O'shea walking in and showing that he's twice the player of wolfy immediately quite baffling.
Wolfy had a solid few games, its not a suprise, he had a pre season and pre season games with minutes alongside Greaves.
O'Shea joined back end of August, international break, minimal training and game time, comes in and playing with new teammates.
I don't really see what people were expecting, O Shea to wait until next season before he gets picked?
I think because people throught that re Greaves and Burgess, and then Greaves played and blew people away they were expecting the same to happen in that position
The O'Shea v Wolfy thing on 14:05 - Sep 26 by itfcjoe
I think because people throught that re Greaves and Burgess, and then Greaves played and blew people away they were expecting the same to happen in that position
Yeah I get that, I just think and I don't mean any disrespect to either Burgess or Greaves here, but when Edmundson came in for Burgess, you missed Burgess but not a massive amount, compared to when we missed Wolfy you kinda felt that loss a bit more imo, so Greaves had imo a slightly lower bar to come into and perform against to be seen as an immediate upgrade, That's not taking anything away from Greaves either as he's been brilliant and as said recently probably the best cb we've had in many many years
Of course for KM he does indeed now have in reality 2 rather solid LCBs, 2 solid rcbs and Tuanzebe who can cover if needed. So it's a positive place to be in
The O'Shea v Wolfy thing on 14:05 - Sep 26 by FrimleyBlue
According to towns own website, O'sheas won 9 out of 12 header duals, Wolfy 3 out of 6
O'shea 14 out of 18 tackles won, wolfy 4 out of 9
Duels, O'shea 14 won, wolfy 4
Wofly has a higher amount of clearences which makes sense when you think of the amount of attacks man city had.
I dunno, I like O'shea, i just think he's not a passer like wolfy so because of this any other mistake he makes is seen as a downgrade when wolfys available despite statistically O'shea shining in the defensive areas.
Regarding mistakes - Woolfenden was generally hung, drawn and quartered whenever he made an error on here. Yet O'Shea, as you mention Greaves, and even Davis, seem to be let off when they do something similar. There seems to be a greater expectation on him from certain posters who are now giving leeway to O'Shea and co. That is perhaps where some of the agitation is coming from, at least on my part.
The O'Shea v Wolfy thing on 13:57 - Sep 26 by HighgateBlue
I think the fact that in O'Shea's case it only covers two games of football is the really limiting factor here in terms of drawing conclusions.
However, it's nice to see both centre backs in the Premier League's top 15 players for heading duels won per 90 mins, that's got to be encouraging. After all, we remain the only top flight team not to have won any kind of game this season (a few won in the Carabao that have not done so in the league), and we lost to Wimbledon on the back of two set piece deliveries (and then penalties). Knowing that the men at the back can win a header is very reassuring.
'Heading duels percentage won' would be a good stat to have for context. But the absolute number does tell us /something/ in the same way as the top scorer table does, without needing to know chance conversion percentages.
75% vs 50% according to one of the main sites, from a tiny sample. 2/3 of Luke's games were really tough, compared to 1/2 for Dara. I don't think the numbers are helpful consequently but below is a snapshot for this season (don't know why the same site provides more info for one player than the other*).
O'Shea
Woolfenden
*Woolf hasn't made a tackle yet, which is why this stat isn't visible on his summary page.
[Post edited 26 Sep 2024 14:42]
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The O'Shea v Wolfy thing on 14:18 - Sep 26 with 1212 views
The O'Shea v Wolfy thing on 14:05 - Sep 26 by itfcjoe
I think because people throught that re Greaves and Burgess, and then Greaves played and blew people away they were expecting the same to happen in that position
I think we should be delighted we have two excellent options in that RCB role. Not sure there is much between them. Like you I really like Woolfy and think he's been criminally underrated by several on here. I am sure he will have a proper part to play this season and expect he will start some games.
Question people should really be asking is whether O'Shea is an upgrade on Edmundson, which is obviously a yes.
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