| Booing the knee from itfc fans? 18:10 - Oct 20 with 27697 views | Mullet |
Was this particularly widespread/loud? This clip seems to pick up one fella or so. Obviously, anyone doing it is an ignorant prick but I’d hope it’s totally isolated. |  |
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| Booing the knee from itfc fans? on 15:24 - Oct 23 with 1559 views | braveblue |
Never heard a thing. |  | | |
| Booing the knee from itfc fans? on 15:44 - Oct 23 with 1505 views | Nutkins_Return |
| Booing the knee from itfc fans? on 11:29 - Oct 23 by Europablue |
Thank you for being generous to me and taking me at my word.
I might be sheltered, but from my experience there is so much social stigma against being labelled racist that it is a gross insult to call someone racist or to insinuate that they are racist. I have to be charitable to people who could be just like me in my 20s, very sensitive to being told what to do or feeling like you are being told what to do, say, or feel and acting out without fully considering how you come across.
I also agree with you that there are definitely some people who boo the kneeling under false pretenses and are using that as cover to express their distaste for anti-racism campaigns.
I've been to hundreds of matches at Portman Road from the early 90s and I have never experienced (or been aware of) any racist abuse. I have never heard any booing of the kick it out campaigns. I never had any issue with those campaigns until they imported an American symbol. Even then, I care enough to comment on a forum, but no more.
I have heard racist jokes at school and insensitive comments growing up, but that never bled into football, and some football supporters are some of the most obnoxious people you can imagine.
I have certainly heard things that would be considered homophobic and misogynistic, and not just the odd comments, there used to be popular chants and people even made fun of Justin Fashinu committing suicide. |
As a completely neutral statement (i.e. please don't take this negatively) but I'm utterly amazed, curious and dumbfounded at the idea of placing so much importance on the 'symbolism of kneeling' and forming such a hard fast and strong opinion on the few seconds of kneeling with good intention and not linked to the aforementioned symbolism (which I I believe you acknowledged yourself).
I think you would likely stand head and shoulders above anyone in the country and possibly the world on taking that 'symbolism of the knee' objection to any scenario even a good one. I shall never consider tying my shoelace in quite the same way :)
Each to their own and as long as you are not booing I suppose. | |
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| Booing the knee from itfc fans? on 10:53 - Oct 25 with 1305 views | Europablue |
| Booing the knee from itfc fans? on 13:07 - Oct 23 by leitrimblue |
Thanks for your detailed reply and sorry for my late reply. (Suddenly had to run off and do some work yesterday and it's taking longer then expected to resolve).
I don't wish to put words into your mouth, but I did find your reply a little confusing. Am I right in thinking then that your main concerns with kneeling is that to you it purely symbolises 'submission and subservience'?
Or perhaps more accurately that kneeling represents submission and subservience in English culture?
I can't quite work out ( probably my fault) if your saying you also find the kneeling in church and that subservience to god highly offensive or if you find the taking the knee at football matches disrespectful to Christians?
To be honest I'm really struggling to share your importance and the offence taken of kneeling in English culture. Though I do appreciate the length you have gone to in attempting to explain yerself even if I still don't completely get it. |
No worries about how long it takes to reply or even if you don't reply. I found myself spending too much time on this thread and there is a lot of other stuff to do. It is a perfect example of sunken cost fallacy! In the end it's better not to even express an opinion and that is what people who just call people names would probably want and I'm not going to be forced to bow to them.
Maybe it's a result of being bullied when I was a child, but I have an anti-victim standpoint in that I won't allow myself to be victimized or be compelled to do or say something that is not true to me. I'm willing to engage in discussion and organically change my point of view based on my own reasoning.
I think my sense of Englishness is closely entwinned with my own sense of self, so sometimes I have to really think if something is my own personal habit or outlook, or if it is an English thing. I'm also very conservative (small c), and I tend towards being very careful about changing culture or habits to make sure we don't loose the very positive aspects of our culture. I want to be convinced before I agree to something. I know some people are more wired to be progressive and want to change things quickly to realize the benefits earlier and fuller. It's probably better to be somewhere in the middle.
I'm only culturally Christian. I don't believe in all that stuff. I certainly don't see kneeling at a football match as in any way belittling to Christians. I believe in serving, but not being subservient. I serve my family, but it is with my consent. I don't like something being imposed with no right to voice your disapproval. That is why I support people's right to boo kneeling even if I think it is wrong or even counterproductive.
My main point on the English culture is that BLM and everything that went with it came from America and even though we have very similar cultures or at least we are very familiar with American culture, we are not the same. There is a lot of cultural baggage that comes with just adopting something foreign without adapting it. We already had the kick it out campaign. In my opinion, it would have been better to build on that rather than just copy and paste and American movement.
I'm still very angry about the lockdowns and it's difficult to disassociate the empty stadiums with the kneeling, just all these enforced changes that altered the way we used to do things without careful care and consideration. Everything is far too political about the kneeling. Sport used to be a respite from politics and society, it's actually at the forefront of egalitarianism, because if you are good enough nothing else matters. The other huge problem with the BLM protests was there was no clear inciting incident (in our country) or goal and therefore it was always a problem of how we would transition away from doing it, or even if we could.
The situation has changed quite a lot since the kneeling started and it has now been normalized to the extent that most people just accept it. You could probably argue that English culture has now evolved. The key aspect of English culture I will fight to preserve is the right to dissent and disagreement and not having taboos that we can't discuss. It is only ever difficult for you to support freedom of speech and expression when you disagree with what people are saying or doing. | | | |
| Booing the knee from itfc fans? on 11:10 - Oct 25 with 1255 views | CrockerITFC |
| Booing the knee from itfc fans? on 08:44 - Oct 22 by Europablue |
So many things in your response are wrong, and it is arrogant of you to say that only black people have a say.
First racism is not just about black people, secondly the game isn't for one race to dictate to another race what to do (that is what it sounds like you are saying).
Why on earth would you not want to be considerate of English culture and heritage concerning attitudes to kneeling?
Finally, this is just a forum where we are stating our opinions. "it's not your call to make" can be used towards anyone who is not involved at the high level of professional sport. |
"First racism is not just about black people"
Quite and as there's so much injustice in the world, perhaps it's therefore a good idea to draw attention to it...that's exactly what this gesture does.
Don't forget the weekend in question was also No Room for Racism weekend. So booing it is totally sends out the wrong signal! |  | | |
| Booing the knee from itfc fans? on 11:10 - Oct 25 with 1254 views | Europablue |
| Booing the knee from itfc fans? on 15:44 - Oct 23 by Nutkins_Return |
As a completely neutral statement (i.e. please don't take this negatively) but I'm utterly amazed, curious and dumbfounded at the idea of placing so much importance on the 'symbolism of kneeling' and forming such a hard fast and strong opinion on the few seconds of kneeling with good intention and not linked to the aforementioned symbolism (which I I believe you acknowledged yourself).
I think you would likely stand head and shoulders above anyone in the country and possibly the world on taking that 'symbolism of the knee' objection to any scenario even a good one. I shall never consider tying my shoelace in quite the same way :)
Each to their own and as long as you are not booing I suppose. |
The forum has distorted how important this issue is to me. As soon as I started responding and continued to do so, it made it sound like I care way more than I do. I can't say it shocked me, but people either insinuating that I am racist or straight out accusing me of racism and lumping me in with banana throwers and racial abusers is incredibly disrespectful and I personally felt that it needed addressing. I have no idea how many people who boo against the kneeling are hardcore racists, but I know it is not all of them, and I like to believe that the majority are against the political and cultural negative associations of kneeling. I see how even casual racism has become so culturally toxic, that I just don't think people are as racist as you think. You could be right, and people just use the grey area of booing as cover. I may also be projecting how I feel in my heart (I just want people to be judged on their character and behaviour, without forcing people to lie) onto these other people who could be me if I were younger and railing against authority imposition. We can certainly disagree on what we think about that, and as I think you said I may be quite sheltered and you might be unfortunate with how prominent racism has been in your life.
In the end I appreciate people on the forum who give people the benefit of the doubt and who are generous about the characters of others until they prove themselves otherwise. | | | |
| Booing the knee from itfc fans? on 11:11 - Oct 25 with 1253 views | SE1blue |
| Booing the knee from itfc fans? on 10:53 - Oct 25 by Europablue |
No worries about how long it takes to reply or even if you don't reply. I found myself spending too much time on this thread and there is a lot of other stuff to do. It is a perfect example of sunken cost fallacy! In the end it's better not to even express an opinion and that is what people who just call people names would probably want and I'm not going to be forced to bow to them.
Maybe it's a result of being bullied when I was a child, but I have an anti-victim standpoint in that I won't allow myself to be victimized or be compelled to do or say something that is not true to me. I'm willing to engage in discussion and organically change my point of view based on my own reasoning.
I think my sense of Englishness is closely entwinned with my own sense of self, so sometimes I have to really think if something is my own personal habit or outlook, or if it is an English thing. I'm also very conservative (small c), and I tend towards being very careful about changing culture or habits to make sure we don't loose the very positive aspects of our culture. I want to be convinced before I agree to something. I know some people are more wired to be progressive and want to change things quickly to realize the benefits earlier and fuller. It's probably better to be somewhere in the middle.
I'm only culturally Christian. I don't believe in all that stuff. I certainly don't see kneeling at a football match as in any way belittling to Christians. I believe in serving, but not being subservient. I serve my family, but it is with my consent. I don't like something being imposed with no right to voice your disapproval. That is why I support people's right to boo kneeling even if I think it is wrong or even counterproductive.
My main point on the English culture is that BLM and everything that went with it came from America and even though we have very similar cultures or at least we are very familiar with American culture, we are not the same. There is a lot of cultural baggage that comes with just adopting something foreign without adapting it. We already had the kick it out campaign. In my opinion, it would have been better to build on that rather than just copy and paste and American movement.
I'm still very angry about the lockdowns and it's difficult to disassociate the empty stadiums with the kneeling, just all these enforced changes that altered the way we used to do things without careful care and consideration. Everything is far too political about the kneeling. Sport used to be a respite from politics and society, it's actually at the forefront of egalitarianism, because if you are good enough nothing else matters. The other huge problem with the BLM protests was there was no clear inciting incident (in our country) or goal and therefore it was always a problem of how we would transition away from doing it, or even if we could.
The situation has changed quite a lot since the kneeling started and it has now been normalized to the extent that most people just accept it. You could probably argue that English culture has now evolved. The key aspect of English culture I will fight to preserve is the right to dissent and disagreement and not having taboos that we can't discuss. It is only ever difficult for you to support freedom of speech and expression when you disagree with what people are saying or doing. |
Your response is entirely about how it makes you feel and relates to your personal life experiences.
If you take a step outside of you for a moment and consider how taking the knee feels to those doing it and what it means to them, I think you might begin to understand it.
But if you keep making this about you, you never will. |  |
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| Booing the knee from itfc fans? on 11:21 - Oct 25 with 1214 views | CrockerITFC |
| Booing the knee from itfc fans? on 10:53 - Oct 25 by Europablue |
No worries about how long it takes to reply or even if you don't reply. I found myself spending too much time on this thread and there is a lot of other stuff to do. It is a perfect example of sunken cost fallacy! In the end it's better not to even express an opinion and that is what people who just call people names would probably want and I'm not going to be forced to bow to them.
Maybe it's a result of being bullied when I was a child, but I have an anti-victim standpoint in that I won't allow myself to be victimized or be compelled to do or say something that is not true to me. I'm willing to engage in discussion and organically change my point of view based on my own reasoning.
I think my sense of Englishness is closely entwinned with my own sense of self, so sometimes I have to really think if something is my own personal habit or outlook, or if it is an English thing. I'm also very conservative (small c), and I tend towards being very careful about changing culture or habits to make sure we don't loose the very positive aspects of our culture. I want to be convinced before I agree to something. I know some people are more wired to be progressive and want to change things quickly to realize the benefits earlier and fuller. It's probably better to be somewhere in the middle.
I'm only culturally Christian. I don't believe in all that stuff. I certainly don't see kneeling at a football match as in any way belittling to Christians. I believe in serving, but not being subservient. I serve my family, but it is with my consent. I don't like something being imposed with no right to voice your disapproval. That is why I support people's right to boo kneeling even if I think it is wrong or even counterproductive.
My main point on the English culture is that BLM and everything that went with it came from America and even though we have very similar cultures or at least we are very familiar with American culture, we are not the same. There is a lot of cultural baggage that comes with just adopting something foreign without adapting it. We already had the kick it out campaign. In my opinion, it would have been better to build on that rather than just copy and paste and American movement.
I'm still very angry about the lockdowns and it's difficult to disassociate the empty stadiums with the kneeling, just all these enforced changes that altered the way we used to do things without careful care and consideration. Everything is far too political about the kneeling. Sport used to be a respite from politics and society, it's actually at the forefront of egalitarianism, because if you are good enough nothing else matters. The other huge problem with the BLM protests was there was no clear inciting incident (in our country) or goal and therefore it was always a problem of how we would transition away from doing it, or even if we could.
The situation has changed quite a lot since the kneeling started and it has now been normalized to the extent that most people just accept it. You could probably argue that English culture has now evolved. The key aspect of English culture I will fight to preserve is the right to dissent and disagreement and not having taboos that we can't discuss. It is only ever difficult for you to support freedom of speech and expression when you disagree with what people are saying or doing. |
Considering how anti-bullying you are you should recognise that a lot of marginalised people don't have a voice. Footballers and sports professionals on the other hand do have a voice and they have a lot of free time. I for one applaud when sports stars use their considerable weight in the public domain for good.
And just to highlight this point, I'm sure you have absolutely no qualms about Ipswich players going to Ipswich Town trust events and doing charity appearances for people living with disabilities or kids in hospital. So some gestures are more acceptable than others. It's just a coincidence that the gesture you're opposed to happens to be about race, right? | | | |
| Booing the knee from itfc fans? on 11:35 - Oct 25 with 1185 views | CrockerITFC |
Also, one last point. Why do people always bring up the BLM movement and the US whenever there's a convo about the kneeling. Sure the gesture originated in the US but the kneeling going on here in the UK before football games is a gesture against racism.
People act like symbols can't ever evolve and develop a new meaning over time, least we forget the swastika used to be an ancient Hindu symbol for peace...nowadays it's safe to say no-one associates that symbol with peace. [Post edited 25 Oct 2024 11:35]
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| Booing the knee from itfc fans? on 11:55 - Oct 25 with 1137 views | Mullet |
| Booing the knee from itfc fans? on 10:53 - Oct 25 by Europablue |
No worries about how long it takes to reply or even if you don't reply. I found myself spending too much time on this thread and there is a lot of other stuff to do. It is a perfect example of sunken cost fallacy! In the end it's better not to even express an opinion and that is what people who just call people names would probably want and I'm not going to be forced to bow to them.
Maybe it's a result of being bullied when I was a child, but I have an anti-victim standpoint in that I won't allow myself to be victimized or be compelled to do or say something that is not true to me. I'm willing to engage in discussion and organically change my point of view based on my own reasoning.
I think my sense of Englishness is closely entwinned with my own sense of self, so sometimes I have to really think if something is my own personal habit or outlook, or if it is an English thing. I'm also very conservative (small c), and I tend towards being very careful about changing culture or habits to make sure we don't loose the very positive aspects of our culture. I want to be convinced before I agree to something. I know some people are more wired to be progressive and want to change things quickly to realize the benefits earlier and fuller. It's probably better to be somewhere in the middle.
I'm only culturally Christian. I don't believe in all that stuff. I certainly don't see kneeling at a football match as in any way belittling to Christians. I believe in serving, but not being subservient. I serve my family, but it is with my consent. I don't like something being imposed with no right to voice your disapproval. That is why I support people's right to boo kneeling even if I think it is wrong or even counterproductive.
My main point on the English culture is that BLM and everything that went with it came from America and even though we have very similar cultures or at least we are very familiar with American culture, we are not the same. There is a lot of cultural baggage that comes with just adopting something foreign without adapting it. We already had the kick it out campaign. In my opinion, it would have been better to build on that rather than just copy and paste and American movement.
I'm still very angry about the lockdowns and it's difficult to disassociate the empty stadiums with the kneeling, just all these enforced changes that altered the way we used to do things without careful care and consideration. Everything is far too political about the kneeling. Sport used to be a respite from politics and society, it's actually at the forefront of egalitarianism, because if you are good enough nothing else matters. The other huge problem with the BLM protests was there was no clear inciting incident (in our country) or goal and therefore it was always a problem of how we would transition away from doing it, or even if we could.
The situation has changed quite a lot since the kneeling started and it has now been normalized to the extent that most people just accept it. You could probably argue that English culture has now evolved. The key aspect of English culture I will fight to preserve is the right to dissent and disagreement and not having taboos that we can't discuss. It is only ever difficult for you to support freedom of speech and expression when you disagree with what people are saying or doing. |
Sport has never been a respite from politics- as far back as the Ancient Greeks and every culture on earth.
You’ve expended a hell of a lot words to regurgitate falsehoods, nonsense about culture and tried to distance yourself as far from your original and habitual posting on the topic. Let alone the Gloria’s of no longer living here and lecturing us all on our culture now.
Why is that? | |
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| Booing the knee from itfc fans? on 11:56 - Oct 25 with 1134 views | Mullet |
| Booing the knee from itfc fans? on 11:35 - Oct 25 by CrockerITFC |
Also, one last point. Why do people always bring up the BLM movement and the US whenever there's a convo about the kneeling. Sure the gesture originated in the US but the kneeling going on here in the UK before football games is a gesture against racism.
People act like symbols can't ever evolve and develop a new meaning over time, least we forget the swastika used to be an ancient Hindu symbol for peace...nowadays it's safe to say no-one associates that symbol with peace. [Post edited 25 Oct 2024 11:35]
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Mostly because they’ve been spoon fed it by (social) media and are too thick and lazy to do more eh a vomit it back up when having a teary rage about something like this. That’s the real import from America harming us, you see it on pretty much every post about anything remotely debate worthy. | |
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| Booing the knee from itfc fans? on 21:13 - Oct 25 with 973 views | Cafe_Newman |
| Booing the knee from itfc fans? on 11:35 - Oct 25 by CrockerITFC |
Also, one last point. Why do people always bring up the BLM movement and the US whenever there's a convo about the kneeling. Sure the gesture originated in the US but the kneeling going on here in the UK before football games is a gesture against racism.
People act like symbols can't ever evolve and develop a new meaning over time, least we forget the swastika used to be an ancient Hindu symbol for peace...nowadays it's safe to say no-one associates that symbol with peace. [Post edited 25 Oct 2024 11:35]
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No, the swastika didn't use "to be an ancient Hindu symbol for peace". It is still used by Hindus as a symbol of prosperity and good luck. Go to India today and you'll see it everywhere, especially in temples and stratched in the earth or drawn with colourful dyes outside people's front doors. Yes, the symbol was appropriated by the Nazis but it is currently regaining popular use among Hindus, Buddists and Jains.
People act like symbols can't ever evolve and return to their original meaning over time. [Post edited 25 Oct 2024 21:17]
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| Booing the knee from itfc fans? on 10:01 - Oct 26 with 844 views | CrockerITFC |
| Booing the knee from itfc fans? on 21:13 - Oct 25 by Cafe_Newman |
No, the swastika didn't use "to be an ancient Hindu symbol for peace". It is still used by Hindus as a symbol of prosperity and good luck. Go to India today and you'll see it everywhere, especially in temples and stratched in the earth or drawn with colourful dyes outside people's front doors. Yes, the symbol was appropriated by the Nazis but it is currently regaining popular use among Hindus, Buddists and Jains.
People act like symbols can't ever evolve and return to their original meaning over time. [Post edited 25 Oct 2024 21:17]
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Thank you for replying and for the clarification! You have perfectly illustrated my point about how different symbols and gestures can have different meanings in different regions (perhaps inadvertently!)
Have a nice day! :) | | | |
| Booing the knee from itfc fans? on 10:29 - Oct 26 with 804 views | Cafe_Newman |
| Booing the knee from itfc fans? on 10:01 - Oct 26 by CrockerITFC |
Thank you for replying and for the clarification! You have perfectly illustrated my point about how different symbols and gestures can have different meanings in different regions (perhaps inadvertently!)
Have a nice day! :) |
Good point. So I sympathise with those non-racists who don't want to "do the knee" because they attach another meaning to that specific action. I would feel uncomfortable seeing groups of people waving swastikas in the name of wanting good luck and prosperity. It sounds like you would too. | | | |
| Booing the knee from itfc fans? on 12:26 - Oct 26 with 735 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Booing the knee from itfc fans? on 10:29 - Oct 26 by Cafe_Newman |
Good point. So I sympathise with those non-racists who don't want to "do the knee" because they attach another meaning to that specific action. I would feel uncomfortable seeing groups of people waving swastikas in the name of wanting good luck and prosperity. It sounds like you would too. |
But none of them have actually expressed a vaguely rational reason for it. Including the convoluted stretch of a reason offered in this very thread! | | | |
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