| Trump....all you need to know. 06:58 - Jan 21 with 23656 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Trump also signed an executive order temporarily delaying the enforcement of a federal ban on TikTok for at least 75 days. “I guess I have a warm spot for TikTok that I didn’t have originally,” Trump said at the White House. |  |
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| Trump....all you need to know. on 14:35 - Jan 23 with 1840 views | Herbivore |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 14:11 - Jan 23 by lowhouseblue |
if you think the ONS a questionable source providing wonky statistics then that's your problem.
the first step in rebuilding trust in politics and avoiding farage as pm is for the current government to very substantially reduce net immigration before the next election. all the evidence shows that is a priority for a majority of voters. is that clear enough?
which former poster are you - just so that i know where the aggression is coming from. [Post edited 23 Jan 14:20]
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It doesn't sound to me like you want there to be an open, honest, and evidence based discussion about immigration. What you want is simply for it to be reduced in line with the populist politicians like Farage.
It may be true that immigration at current levels is not sustainable, but engagement with the issue of immigration should involve more than just cutting it, surely? Should it not also involve a discussion about why levels of immigration rose so high under a government that was outwardly using strong anti-immigration rhetoric? Our economy is flat lining and we have an ageing population and decreasing birth rate. How do wee increase productivity and fill labour shortages without working age immigrants coming to the country in fairly large numbers?
It feels like you aren't actually that interested in structural issues or a reasoned debate, you just want mainstream politicians to follow the populists. I'm not convinced that's a very good idea, personally.
It's also worth noting that concerns about immigration fluctuate. You don't have to go back very many years to see a majority of the public expressing positive views about immigration. What we know is that in tough economic times - such as the cost of living crisis post-pandemic and post-Ukraine war - attitudes towards 'others' harden, often aided by the rhetoric of populists offering easy answers and seeking to distract from the fact that plenty of their mates profit in tough economic times. Do we just ignore all that and not debate that either? |  |
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| Trump....all you need to know. on 14:55 - Jan 23 with 1795 views | lowhouseblue |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 14:35 - Jan 23 by Herbivore |
It doesn't sound to me like you want there to be an open, honest, and evidence based discussion about immigration. What you want is simply for it to be reduced in line with the populist politicians like Farage.
It may be true that immigration at current levels is not sustainable, but engagement with the issue of immigration should involve more than just cutting it, surely? Should it not also involve a discussion about why levels of immigration rose so high under a government that was outwardly using strong anti-immigration rhetoric? Our economy is flat lining and we have an ageing population and decreasing birth rate. How do wee increase productivity and fill labour shortages without working age immigrants coming to the country in fairly large numbers?
It feels like you aren't actually that interested in structural issues or a reasoned debate, you just want mainstream politicians to follow the populists. I'm not convinced that's a very good idea, personally.
It's also worth noting that concerns about immigration fluctuate. You don't have to go back very many years to see a majority of the public expressing positive views about immigration. What we know is that in tough economic times - such as the cost of living crisis post-pandemic and post-Ukraine war - attitudes towards 'others' harden, often aided by the rhetoric of populists offering easy answers and seeking to distract from the fact that plenty of their mates profit in tough economic times. Do we just ignore all that and not debate that either? |
oh joy, you're both back now.
i've previously posted a lot about the figures - and i agree with you that the issue is both the total level, which is now absolutely unprecedented, and the mix of reasons.
yes, we do need economically active migrants - and the mix of migrants we received pre-brexit was ideal for that. they were predominantly highly skilled, qualified, young / working age, economically active. as a result the economic participation was high and all the evidence is that they were significantly net payers into government revenues. but the pattern post brexit is very different - now the total numbers are much higher, fewer are here to work, many more are unskilled, the number of dependents is much higher, a very small proportion are here to work in the nhs or care sector etc (a common claim), the level of economic participation is much lower, the number who are not working or studying etc is higher, and the evidence over the last few years is that they represent a net draw down of government funds.
you are absolutely right that concerns about immigration fluctuate. but that doesn't occur randomly. a significant majority were positive about immigration when the numbers were lower, people could see the benefit of adding workers, and community integration was occurring. with the current mass immigration (3 million net in 4 years - ONS data) none of that is still true and attitudes have shifted as a result. when you are talking about net 3 million in a short period, ignoring whatever number is correct for the illegal overstayers, that is a huge impact on lots of local communities.
it really has all been debated on here in your absence. i actually agree with a lot of what you say. where we disagree i think is that for me a large majority of voters have genuine and valid concerns about the current mass immigration and populists like farage have picked up on that very genuine discontent. i want main stream politicians to listen to the voters. where as you seem to think that the populists have just invented it all. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Trump....all you need to know. on 15:02 - Jan 23 with 1763 views | StokieBlue |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 14:55 - Jan 23 by lowhouseblue |
oh joy, you're both back now.
i've previously posted a lot about the figures - and i agree with you that the issue is both the total level, which is now absolutely unprecedented, and the mix of reasons.
yes, we do need economically active migrants - and the mix of migrants we received pre-brexit was ideal for that. they were predominantly highly skilled, qualified, young / working age, economically active. as a result the economic participation was high and all the evidence is that they were significantly net payers into government revenues. but the pattern post brexit is very different - now the total numbers are much higher, fewer are here to work, many more are unskilled, the number of dependents is much higher, a very small proportion are here to work in the nhs or care sector etc (a common claim), the level of economic participation is much lower, the number who are not working or studying etc is higher, and the evidence over the last few years is that they represent a net draw down of government funds.
you are absolutely right that concerns about immigration fluctuate. but that doesn't occur randomly. a significant majority were positive about immigration when the numbers were lower, people could see the benefit of adding workers, and community integration was occurring. with the current mass immigration (3 million net in 4 years - ONS data) none of that is still true and attitudes have shifted as a result. when you are talking about net 3 million in a short period, ignoring whatever number is correct for the illegal overstayers, that is a huge impact on lots of local communities.
it really has all been debated on here in your absence. i actually agree with a lot of what you say. where we disagree i think is that for me a large majority of voters have genuine and valid concerns about the current mass immigration and populists like farage have picked up on that very genuine discontent. i want main stream politicians to listen to the voters. where as you seem to think that the populists have just invented it all. |
Could you outline some of these genuine and valid concerns?
Have people like Farage picked up on discontent as you state or have they caused it along with social media by peddling falsehoods which they can then circle back and re-enforce?
SB |  | | |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 15:13 - Jan 23 with 1729 views | lowhouseblue |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 15:02 - Jan 23 by StokieBlue |
Could you outline some of these genuine and valid concerns?
Have people like Farage picked up on discontent as you state or have they caused it along with social media by peddling falsehoods which they can then circle back and re-enforce?
SB |
how do you think 3 million additional people can be absorbed over a short period? do you think the uk housing crisis is a myth or that the 3 million didn't need houses? when first time buyers were reporting a lack of houses was there units sufficient to house 3 million people hidden away in every locality? do they not need gp appointments or attend a&e. we live in a country where essential services such as those are stretched to breaking point and at the same time we've added 3 million people. perhaps the gps just make everyone wait a week for fun and they really have lots of empty slots. i'm certain that the impact is different in different places. but the idea that voters are stupid swallowers of falsehoods is just a lame excuse so as to ignore people whose experience is different to your own. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Trump....all you need to know. on 15:22 - Jan 23 with 1695 views | StokieBlue |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 15:13 - Jan 23 by lowhouseblue |
how do you think 3 million additional people can be absorbed over a short period? do you think the uk housing crisis is a myth or that the 3 million didn't need houses? when first time buyers were reporting a lack of houses was there units sufficient to house 3 million people hidden away in every locality? do they not need gp appointments or attend a&e. we live in a country where essential services such as those are stretched to breaking point and at the same time we've added 3 million people. perhaps the gps just make everyone wait a week for fun and they really have lots of empty slots. i'm certain that the impact is different in different places. but the idea that voters are stupid swallowers of falsehoods is just a lame excuse so as to ignore people whose experience is different to your own. |
I've not got the time to respond to this in the manner it requires at the moment but I will do later if time allows.
SB | | | |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 15:24 - Jan 23 with 1683 views | Herbivore |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 14:55 - Jan 23 by lowhouseblue |
oh joy, you're both back now.
i've previously posted a lot about the figures - and i agree with you that the issue is both the total level, which is now absolutely unprecedented, and the mix of reasons.
yes, we do need economically active migrants - and the mix of migrants we received pre-brexit was ideal for that. they were predominantly highly skilled, qualified, young / working age, economically active. as a result the economic participation was high and all the evidence is that they were significantly net payers into government revenues. but the pattern post brexit is very different - now the total numbers are much higher, fewer are here to work, many more are unskilled, the number of dependents is much higher, a very small proportion are here to work in the nhs or care sector etc (a common claim), the level of economic participation is much lower, the number who are not working or studying etc is higher, and the evidence over the last few years is that they represent a net draw down of government funds.
you are absolutely right that concerns about immigration fluctuate. but that doesn't occur randomly. a significant majority were positive about immigration when the numbers were lower, people could see the benefit of adding workers, and community integration was occurring. with the current mass immigration (3 million net in 4 years - ONS data) none of that is still true and attitudes have shifted as a result. when you are talking about net 3 million in a short period, ignoring whatever number is correct for the illegal overstayers, that is a huge impact on lots of local communities.
it really has all been debated on here in your absence. i actually agree with a lot of what you say. where we disagree i think is that for me a large majority of voters have genuine and valid concerns about the current mass immigration and populists like farage have picked up on that very genuine discontent. i want main stream politicians to listen to the voters. where as you seem to think that the populists have just invented it all. |
Oh joy, you're still here.
Farage hasn't only been talking about immigration for 3 years though, has he? He was talking about it when it was WAY down the list of voters' priorities. He was talking about it when migration had clear net benefits in terms of the economy and when public attitudes to migration were largely positive. Blaming immigrants for any and all of the country's ills is pretty much his only trick. It's not exactly the case that he's giving a voice to the voiceless, and it's not like the mainstream political parties are willing to disagree with him fundamentally on immigration anymore either.
I just don't buy that the appropriate response is to take an even harder line on immigration without having a proper, grown up, and evidence based debate about the pros and cons of immigration, what constitutes a sustainable level of immigration, and how we balance our economic needs with our humanitarian responsibilities. None of that happens if we just pander to base populist rhetoric and take a cut immigration at all costs approach. | |
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| Trump....all you need to know. on 15:35 - Jan 23 with 1647 views | lowhouseblue |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 15:24 - Jan 23 by Herbivore |
Oh joy, you're still here.
Farage hasn't only been talking about immigration for 3 years though, has he? He was talking about it when it was WAY down the list of voters' priorities. He was talking about it when migration had clear net benefits in terms of the economy and when public attitudes to migration were largely positive. Blaming immigrants for any and all of the country's ills is pretty much his only trick. It's not exactly the case that he's giving a voice to the voiceless, and it's not like the mainstream political parties are willing to disagree with him fundamentally on immigration anymore either.
I just don't buy that the appropriate response is to take an even harder line on immigration without having a proper, grown up, and evidence based debate about the pros and cons of immigration, what constitutes a sustainable level of immigration, and how we balance our economic needs with our humanitarian responsibilities. None of that happens if we just pander to base populist rhetoric and take a cut immigration at all costs approach. |
i'm not in any way defending farage. i want to avoid pm farage. yes there has always been a minority opposed to migration and for a long time people like farage only appealed to them on this issue (clearly on brexit his appeal was wider). but those worried about migration is now a big majority.
absolutely, pre-brexit the economic effect of migration was overwhelmingly positive. the uk also has a long history of successful gradual social integration.
i've posted a long list of the ways that the current mass immigration is different from what went before it. yes we have to honour our humanitarian responsibilities - but that's a tiny proportion of the 3 million in 4 years. the two thirds of the electorate who think immigration is too high haven't reached that view because they've been tricked by populists or because they're incipient racists. the left / centrists (quickly) needs to learn that listening to voters isn't pandering to populists. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Trump....all you need to know. on 15:48 - Jan 23 with 1594 views | Herbivore |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 15:35 - Jan 23 by lowhouseblue |
i'm not in any way defending farage. i want to avoid pm farage. yes there has always been a minority opposed to migration and for a long time people like farage only appealed to them on this issue (clearly on brexit his appeal was wider). but those worried about migration is now a big majority.
absolutely, pre-brexit the economic effect of migration was overwhelmingly positive. the uk also has a long history of successful gradual social integration.
i've posted a long list of the ways that the current mass immigration is different from what went before it. yes we have to honour our humanitarian responsibilities - but that's a tiny proportion of the 3 million in 4 years. the two thirds of the electorate who think immigration is too high haven't reached that view because they've been tricked by populists or because they're incipient racists. the left / centrists (quickly) needs to learn that listening to voters isn't pandering to populists. |
But I'm not sure there's much evidence they aren't being listened to, given that both Labour and the Tories promised to reduce immigration in the run up to the election? Sadly, they both also jumped aboard the 'stop the boats' rhetoric despite, as you say, that accounting for a very small proportion of immigration. And if they are wanting to stop the boats on humanitarian grounds I'd be all for it, particularly with a sensible solution that involves us offering safe alternatives.
But what is largely missing in the public discourse is that kind of nuanced debate and a discussion of immigration, pros as well as cons, that is based on evidence and not emotive populism. It seems you think the opposite, that public discourse is ignoring or is fully pro immigration and thus not taking account of public opinion. That's not what I'm seeing. | |
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| Trump....all you need to know. on 15:57 - Jan 23 with 1560 views | lowhouseblue |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 15:48 - Jan 23 by Herbivore |
But I'm not sure there's much evidence they aren't being listened to, given that both Labour and the Tories promised to reduce immigration in the run up to the election? Sadly, they both also jumped aboard the 'stop the boats' rhetoric despite, as you say, that accounting for a very small proportion of immigration. And if they are wanting to stop the boats on humanitarian grounds I'd be all for it, particularly with a sensible solution that involves us offering safe alternatives.
But what is largely missing in the public discourse is that kind of nuanced debate and a discussion of immigration, pros as well as cons, that is based on evidence and not emotive populism. It seems you think the opposite, that public discourse is ignoring or is fully pro immigration and thus not taking account of public opinion. That's not what I'm seeing. |
the boats are a different issue. numerically it's neither here not there - politically it's obviously more charged. i agree that our prime concern in responding to the boats should be humanitarian.
i guess my point is that the tories gave us mass migration on an unprecedented scale with potentially huge economic and social consequences - it is clear that the public doesn't support it but they have never been given an opportunity to decide. yes the current government is committed to reducing it. but huge changes like this - driven by policy shifts - are corrosive of trust in politics. people feel that it has been imposed against their will. loss of trust in politics and a sense that control is being exercised unaccountably is dangerous - unless the current government can deliver on its promises in this area i genuinely fear we are heading towards farage. the us really ought to focus our attention. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Trump....all you need to know. on 16:06 - Jan 23 with 1531 views | Herbivore |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 15:57 - Jan 23 by lowhouseblue |
the boats are a different issue. numerically it's neither here not there - politically it's obviously more charged. i agree that our prime concern in responding to the boats should be humanitarian.
i guess my point is that the tories gave us mass migration on an unprecedented scale with potentially huge economic and social consequences - it is clear that the public doesn't support it but they have never been given an opportunity to decide. yes the current government is committed to reducing it. but huge changes like this - driven by policy shifts - are corrosive of trust in politics. people feel that it has been imposed against their will. loss of trust in politics and a sense that control is being exercised unaccountably is dangerous - unless the current government can deliver on its promises in this area i genuinely fear we are heading towards farage. the us really ought to focus our attention. |
I think a bigger issue was that the Tories allowed record levels of migration while simultaneously engaging in Faragesque rhetoric about immigration. So we've not only got an erosion of trust because they said one thing and did something entirely different, we've also got a public who are being stoked into a rage by politicians in the mainstream as well as on the populist outskirts. That is a huge problem. That is not to say that concerns about immigration aren't real and widespread, but anti-immigration rhetoric does nothing to help the situation.
It's worth noting a vast majority of people (80%) also have real worries about inequality, but we don't see the same stoking up of animosity towards the wealthy or towards those who perpetuate inequality as we do towards immigrants or those who support the immigration system. I wonder why? | |
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| Trump....all you need to know. on 16:17 - Jan 23 with 1504 views | lowhouseblue |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 16:06 - Jan 23 by Herbivore |
I think a bigger issue was that the Tories allowed record levels of migration while simultaneously engaging in Faragesque rhetoric about immigration. So we've not only got an erosion of trust because they said one thing and did something entirely different, we've also got a public who are being stoked into a rage by politicians in the mainstream as well as on the populist outskirts. That is a huge problem. That is not to say that concerns about immigration aren't real and widespread, but anti-immigration rhetoric does nothing to help the situation.
It's worth noting a vast majority of people (80%) also have real worries about inequality, but we don't see the same stoking up of animosity towards the wealthy or towards those who perpetuate inequality as we do towards immigrants or those who support the immigration system. I wonder why? |
yeah, but a similar proportion oppose tax rises so things are a bit more nuanced there.
"public who are being stoked into a rage by politicians in the mainstream as well as on the populist outskirts" as i said several posts ago this is the point on which we really disagree. my reading of the public mood is that the concern about this issue is genuine and manipulation free. there are undoubtedly people at the margins who get tipped towards more extreme views by the rhetoric deployed by farage or musk etc, but my feeling is that with most people there's quite a calm and balanced view that things are not working as they want. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Trump....all you need to know. on 16:19 - Jan 23 with 1498 views | Herbivore |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 16:17 - Jan 23 by lowhouseblue |
yeah, but a similar proportion oppose tax rises so things are a bit more nuanced there.
"public who are being stoked into a rage by politicians in the mainstream as well as on the populist outskirts" as i said several posts ago this is the point on which we really disagree. my reading of the public mood is that the concern about this issue is genuine and manipulation free. there are undoubtedly people at the margins who get tipped towards more extreme views by the rhetoric deployed by farage or musk etc, but my feeling is that with most people there's quite a calm and balanced view that things are not working as they want. |
Think we'll have to agree to disagree. | |
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| Trump....all you need to know. on 16:43 - Jan 23 with 1432 views | leitrimblue |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 11:01 - Jan 23 by lowhouseblue |
the first thing we need to do is have an honest and open discussion of immigration and recognise that it is a top issue for many voters. it needs to be a discussion which isn't shut down by accusations of racism or that raising the issue is pandering to the far right. it needs to treat the level of immigration as something that is decided through the democratic process, controlled by voters, and not something that, as many people believe, is imposed on them regardless of what they think. if there is one issue that makes many people feel that have no control over their communities it is this.
it needs to recognise that by a very large majority most people in the uk now think current immigration is unsustainably high. it needs to recognise the experience of people who think that - and not dismiss them and belittle them.
i've previously posted the ONS statistics which show that net immigration to the uk in the last 4 years was 3 million people. (interestingly, given the extreme focus on the issue there, immigration into the usa (a country 5 times larger) in the same period was 10 million). what i hadn't seen before was these estimates of illegal migrants in the uk (ie those out staying visas) at a further 1 million.:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/01/22/one-in-12-in-london-is-an-illega |
I don't wish to criticise, as at least you are attempting to debate and consider the issues that may be leading the working class to consider voting for Farage ( though can't help thinking that Farage may well have just as much support amongst the white middle classes)
I'm just far from convinced that the only concern of the working class ( I know that's a incredibly sweeping term) is immigration.
I would suggest that a lack of financial equality and the fact that Labour as failed to represent the working class, leaving many feeling they are unrepresented (leaving the door wide open for chancers like Farage) are just as important issues as immigration. But are barely discussed compared to immigration |  | | |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 16:52 - Jan 23 with 1411 views | Herbivore |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 16:43 - Jan 23 by leitrimblue |
I don't wish to criticise, as at least you are attempting to debate and consider the issues that may be leading the working class to consider voting for Farage ( though can't help thinking that Farage may well have just as much support amongst the white middle classes)
I'm just far from convinced that the only concern of the working class ( I know that's a incredibly sweeping term) is immigration.
I would suggest that a lack of financial equality and the fact that Labour as failed to represent the working class, leaving many feeling they are unrepresented (leaving the door wide open for chancers like Farage) are just as important issues as immigration. But are barely discussed compared to immigration |
I do wonder whether as many people would be as exercised about immigration if they'd seen their standard of living improving, public services being in good health, and their cost of living being affordable. I understand lowie's point that immigration may contribute to some of these issues, particularly the potential strain on public services, but these issues are not primarily or even mainly the result of immigration. Things were going south well before the incredibly high immigration figures of the last few years. We know from history that people then look to blame 'others' as it provides a simple answer to complex problems and can lead to quite horrific consequences. That's why I can appreciate lowie and I agree on a fair bit, but fundamentally disagree on some other important parts of this debate. | |
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| Trump....all you need to know. on 16:59 - Jan 23 with 1376 views | DJR |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 16:43 - Jan 23 by leitrimblue |
I don't wish to criticise, as at least you are attempting to debate and consider the issues that may be leading the working class to consider voting for Farage ( though can't help thinking that Farage may well have just as much support amongst the white middle classes)
I'm just far from convinced that the only concern of the working class ( I know that's a incredibly sweeping term) is immigration.
I would suggest that a lack of financial equality and the fact that Labour as failed to represent the working class, leaving many feeling they are unrepresented (leaving the door wide open for chancers like Farage) are just as important issues as immigration. But are barely discussed compared to immigration |
On a similar vein, this excellent article from Bernie Sanders indicates how Trump's concentration on trigger issues like immigration means he ignores many of the things that are of relevance to ordinary Americans.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/jan/23/bernie-sanders-trump-inaug
"What really struck me, however, is not what he said, which was not surprising given his general rhetoric – but what he didn’t say. The simple truth is that Donald Trump gave a major speech, the first speech of his second presidency, and ignored almost every significant issue facing the working families of this country.
How crazy is that?" [Post edited 23 Jan 17:01]
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| Trump....all you need to know. on 17:08 - Jan 23 with 1347 views | lowhouseblue |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 16:43 - Jan 23 by leitrimblue |
I don't wish to criticise, as at least you are attempting to debate and consider the issues that may be leading the working class to consider voting for Farage ( though can't help thinking that Farage may well have just as much support amongst the white middle classes)
I'm just far from convinced that the only concern of the working class ( I know that's a incredibly sweeping term) is immigration.
I would suggest that a lack of financial equality and the fact that Labour as failed to represent the working class, leaving many feeling they are unrepresented (leaving the door wide open for chancers like Farage) are just as important issues as immigration. But are barely discussed compared to immigration |
you and herbivore (below) must be right that there is much more going on than just immigration. if public services were perfect, houses were plentiful and incomes were growing then the reaction may well be very different. but we are where we are. my interest is how do we stop people like farage and avoid ending up where the us and, increasingly, much of europe is. and i do think that it is more than economics - it is an increasing erosion of political trust. lots of people don't believe they have been listened to and they increasingly think there is a dominant political establishment that doesn't represent their interests. immigration stands out as a topic where the centrists are out of touch and give lots of people the impression of not caring. i think the us election has had a big effect on me and the fact that so many blue collar voters essentially felt the washington democrats were a self-serving out of touch elite (the bbc's justin webb is very good on this). | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Trump....all you need to know. on 17:14 - Jan 23 with 1312 views | leitrimblue |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 16:52 - Jan 23 by Herbivore |
I do wonder whether as many people would be as exercised about immigration if they'd seen their standard of living improving, public services being in good health, and their cost of living being affordable. I understand lowie's point that immigration may contribute to some of these issues, particularly the potential strain on public services, but these issues are not primarily or even mainly the result of immigration. Things were going south well before the incredibly high immigration figures of the last few years. We know from history that people then look to blame 'others' as it provides a simple answer to complex problems and can lead to quite horrific consequences. That's why I can appreciate lowie and I agree on a fair bit, but fundamentally disagree on some other important parts of this debate. |
I'm pretty sure if there had been a perceivable increase in the standard of living and the quality of public services etc immigration would not be as big a subject as it may be for some now.
To me solely blaming immigration rather then the actions of the last government ( and many before) that have failed to deal with the growing financial equality in the UK is a large part of the problem.
How many millions in the UK live in poverty? But you barely hear a politician mention it. | | | |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 17:34 - Jan 23 with 1266 views | Herbivore |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 17:08 - Jan 23 by lowhouseblue |
you and herbivore (below) must be right that there is much more going on than just immigration. if public services were perfect, houses were plentiful and incomes were growing then the reaction may well be very different. but we are where we are. my interest is how do we stop people like farage and avoid ending up where the us and, increasingly, much of europe is. and i do think that it is more than economics - it is an increasing erosion of political trust. lots of people don't believe they have been listened to and they increasingly think there is a dominant political establishment that doesn't represent their interests. immigration stands out as a topic where the centrists are out of touch and give lots of people the impression of not caring. i think the us election has had a big effect on me and the fact that so many blue collar voters essentially felt the washington democrats were a self-serving out of touch elite (the bbc's justin webb is very good on this). |
The problem is that those voters have voted for a genuinely self-serving elite instead, and it's the populists who have helped to ensure that trust in political institutions is eroded through making outlandish promises they can't keep and throwing out baseless claims about their opponents. Do you counter that by adopting similar tactics, or at least by pivoting to the agenda the populists have set? Or do you counter it by trying to offer a genuine alternative, both an alternative narrative and a different form of politics. It seems to me we've spent a lot of time doing the former rather than the latter and you aren't likely to beat the populists on their home turf. | |
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| Trump....all you need to know. on 17:36 - Jan 23 with 1257 views | leitrimblue |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 17:08 - Jan 23 by lowhouseblue |
you and herbivore (below) must be right that there is much more going on than just immigration. if public services were perfect, houses were plentiful and incomes were growing then the reaction may well be very different. but we are where we are. my interest is how do we stop people like farage and avoid ending up where the us and, increasingly, much of europe is. and i do think that it is more than economics - it is an increasing erosion of political trust. lots of people don't believe they have been listened to and they increasingly think there is a dominant political establishment that doesn't represent their interests. immigration stands out as a topic where the centrists are out of touch and give lots of people the impression of not caring. i think the us election has had a big effect on me and the fact that so many blue collar voters essentially felt the washington democrats were a self-serving out of touch elite (the bbc's justin webb is very good on this). |
I guess I'm partially influenced by the concerns of my own family. Both my parents and a lot of my family (and friends) live on Haverhills Chalkstone Estate. It's pretty working class, but apart from the other year when the mother was giving out about 'all the Portuguese working in the peanut factory' immigration doesn't appear to be something that's high on their agenda
Might just be the place is so rundown even illegal immigrants think they can do better then live there 
But the poverty and enormous inequality in the country is something they go on about regularly.
I do though completely agree with your 2nd point about the erosion of political trust and he issue of large swathes of the population not feeling listened to or represented.
I would put some of the blame for this at the feet of the Labour party. Where in the US blue collar workers may well feel that the Democrats are self serving and outta touch in the UK many in working class areas no longer feel represented by Labour | | | |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 17:40 - Jan 23 with 1220 views | lowhouseblue |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 17:34 - Jan 23 by Herbivore |
The problem is that those voters have voted for a genuinely self-serving elite instead, and it's the populists who have helped to ensure that trust in political institutions is eroded through making outlandish promises they can't keep and throwing out baseless claims about their opponents. Do you counter that by adopting similar tactics, or at least by pivoting to the agenda the populists have set? Or do you counter it by trying to offer a genuine alternative, both an alternative narrative and a different form of politics. It seems to me we've spent a lot of time doing the former rather than the latter and you aren't likely to beat the populists on their home turf. |
again, as i keep saying, the populists are picking up on and exploiting widespread concern amongst working class voters. i want politicians to listen to those voters. assigning all the impetus here to "the agenda of the populists" denies working class voters of their agency and also presents them as easily manipulated and gullible - which in truth just adds to the sense that the self-serving elite is neither interested in them or respects them. we are just back to the point on which we have already agreed that we disagree. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Trump....all you need to know. on 17:55 - Jan 23 with 1144 views | Herbivore |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 17:40 - Jan 23 by lowhouseblue |
again, as i keep saying, the populists are picking up on and exploiting widespread concern amongst working class voters. i want politicians to listen to those voters. assigning all the impetus here to "the agenda of the populists" denies working class voters of their agency and also presents them as easily manipulated and gullible - which in truth just adds to the sense that the self-serving elite is neither interested in them or respects them. we are just back to the point on which we have already agreed that we disagree. |
Yes, I do disagree with your framing here and the way you're presenting the issue, but I think we're unlikely to change each other's minds on this one so we'll revert to agreeing to disagree. | |
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| Trump....all you need to know. on 18:03 - Jan 23 with 1106 views | Europablue |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 14:05 - Jan 23 by eireblue |
You weren’t around during the Brexit debates.
Plenty of people pre-Brexit made the point that Brexit wasn’t going to control the borders, but just change the type of immigration from free movement of labour from people that may pop over for a few years, to more permanent immigration.
It was incumbent on people promoting Brexit to be honest.
They weren’t. |
I might have voted for Brexit on principle, but I voted remain because of practicalities and out of realism. I didn't have any faith in the leaders following through with Brexit that could be successful.
Brexit doesn't have a huge effect on people living in the UK, but it has a huge effect on people living in the EU. |  | | |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 18:11 - Jan 23 with 1065 views | Europablue |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 14:35 - Jan 23 by Herbivore |
It doesn't sound to me like you want there to be an open, honest, and evidence based discussion about immigration. What you want is simply for it to be reduced in line with the populist politicians like Farage.
It may be true that immigration at current levels is not sustainable, but engagement with the issue of immigration should involve more than just cutting it, surely? Should it not also involve a discussion about why levels of immigration rose so high under a government that was outwardly using strong anti-immigration rhetoric? Our economy is flat lining and we have an ageing population and decreasing birth rate. How do wee increase productivity and fill labour shortages without working age immigrants coming to the country in fairly large numbers?
It feels like you aren't actually that interested in structural issues or a reasoned debate, you just want mainstream politicians to follow the populists. I'm not convinced that's a very good idea, personally.
It's also worth noting that concerns about immigration fluctuate. You don't have to go back very many years to see a majority of the public expressing positive views about immigration. What we know is that in tough economic times - such as the cost of living crisis post-pandemic and post-Ukraine war - attitudes towards 'others' harden, often aided by the rhetoric of populists offering easy answers and seeking to distract from the fact that plenty of their mates profit in tough economic times. Do we just ignore all that and not debate that either? |
It is crazy to frame immigration as bad or good. You'd have to be an extremist to declare it either way.
Immigration is only as good as the people who come and the way they are allowed/made to settle.
We should all agree that in theory illegal immigration should be zero.
We have to agree on whether we have a culture worth preserving.
Then the debate begins about the volume and type of immigration. Even if we agree on this we have to agree on how to fund and carry out the necessary infrastructure for all these extra people.
I personally think the long term solution for a country like Japan is robots rather than immigration. | | | |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 18:16 - Jan 23 with 1045 views | Europablue |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 15:24 - Jan 23 by Herbivore |
Oh joy, you're still here.
Farage hasn't only been talking about immigration for 3 years though, has he? He was talking about it when it was WAY down the list of voters' priorities. He was talking about it when migration had clear net benefits in terms of the economy and when public attitudes to migration were largely positive. Blaming immigrants for any and all of the country's ills is pretty much his only trick. It's not exactly the case that he's giving a voice to the voiceless, and it's not like the mainstream political parties are willing to disagree with him fundamentally on immigration anymore either.
I just don't buy that the appropriate response is to take an even harder line on immigration without having a proper, grown up, and evidence based debate about the pros and cons of immigration, what constitutes a sustainable level of immigration, and how we balance our economic needs with our humanitarian responsibilities. None of that happens if we just pander to base populist rhetoric and take a cut immigration at all costs approach. |
It literally is a case of cut net immigration or boost building to unrealistic levels along with a historically large sum for infrastructure.
Irrespective of whether you like the type of person coming in, the fact that the sheer number is too large too quickly is an obvious concern. | | | |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 18:18 - Jan 23 with 1037 views | Europablue |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 15:48 - Jan 23 by Herbivore |
But I'm not sure there's much evidence they aren't being listened to, given that both Labour and the Tories promised to reduce immigration in the run up to the election? Sadly, they both also jumped aboard the 'stop the boats' rhetoric despite, as you say, that accounting for a very small proportion of immigration. And if they are wanting to stop the boats on humanitarian grounds I'd be all for it, particularly with a sensible solution that involves us offering safe alternatives.
But what is largely missing in the public discourse is that kind of nuanced debate and a discussion of immigration, pros as well as cons, that is based on evidence and not emotive populism. It seems you think the opposite, that public discourse is ignoring or is fully pro immigration and thus not taking account of public opinion. That's not what I'm seeing. |
Isn't the safe alternative to getting on a flimsy boat from France, to not get on the flimsy boat from France? | | | |
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