| Trump....all you need to know. 06:58 - Jan 21 with 23702 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Trump also signed an executive order temporarily delaying the enforcement of a federal ban on TikTok for at least 75 days. “I guess I have a warm spot for TikTok that I didn’t have originally,” Trump said at the White House. |  |
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| Trump....all you need to know. on 18:22 - Jan 23 with 1450 views | Europablue |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 16:06 - Jan 23 by Herbivore |
I think a bigger issue was that the Tories allowed record levels of migration while simultaneously engaging in Faragesque rhetoric about immigration. So we've not only got an erosion of trust because they said one thing and did something entirely different, we've also got a public who are being stoked into a rage by politicians in the mainstream as well as on the populist outskirts. That is a huge problem. That is not to say that concerns about immigration aren't real and widespread, but anti-immigration rhetoric does nothing to help the situation.
It's worth noting a vast majority of people (80%) also have real worries about inequality, but we don't see the same stoking up of animosity towards the wealthy or towards those who perpetuate inequality as we do towards immigrants or those who support the immigration system. I wonder why? |
Could it be that immigration is making us poorer and rich people pay the vast majority of the tax?
You are clearly talking about racism, but do you think it racist to want to preserve the character of your country? Can't we demand that people coming to our country share our values? Of course they can also enrich us with their positive cultural influences. |  | | |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 18:22 - Jan 23 with 1458 views | Herbivore |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 18:03 - Jan 23 by Europablue |
I might have voted for Brexit on principle, but I voted remain because of practicalities and out of realism. I didn't have any faith in the leaders following through with Brexit that could be successful.
Brexit doesn't have a huge effect on people living in the UK, but it has a huge effect on people living in the EU. |
Brexit doesn't have a huge effect on people living in the UK? Apart, of course, from the economic harm it's done, the restrictions on our ability to live and work in other European countries, and the deep societal divisions and poisoning of political discourse it's caused or exacerbated. I guess if we ignore all that, there's really no difference. |  |
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| Trump....all you need to know. on 18:27 - Jan 23 with 1431 views | DJR |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 18:22 - Jan 23 by Herbivore |
Brexit doesn't have a huge effect on people living in the UK? Apart, of course, from the economic harm it's done, the restrictions on our ability to live and work in other European countries, and the deep societal divisions and poisoning of political discourse it's caused or exacerbated. I guess if we ignore all that, there's really no difference. |
Don't forget studying!
Helping my son get a visa for Spain was a complete and utter nightmare, and one of the most difficult things I have ever done. And I'm a lawyer with some knowledge of Spanish and Spanish administration, as well as a Spanish bank account. [Post edited 23 Jan 18:32]
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| Trump....all you need to know. on 18:27 - Jan 23 with 1430 views | positivity |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 18:22 - Jan 23 by Herbivore |
Brexit doesn't have a huge effect on people living in the UK? Apart, of course, from the economic harm it's done, the restrictions on our ability to live and work in other European countries, and the deep societal divisions and poisoning of political discourse it's caused or exacerbated. I guess if we ignore all that, there's really no difference. |
best to ignore this europa loon.
he's an anti-immigrant who's so keen on britain that he emigrated away from it, he's got no idea on modern british society! | |
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| Trump....all you need to know. on 18:27 - Jan 23 with 1422 views | Herbivore |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 18:22 - Jan 23 by Europablue |
Could it be that immigration is making us poorer and rich people pay the vast majority of the tax?
You are clearly talking about racism, but do you think it racist to want to preserve the character of your country? Can't we demand that people coming to our country share our values? Of course they can also enrich us with their positive cultural influences. |
Sorry mate, I'm not a dog so I can't hear that whistle. | |
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| Trump....all you need to know. on 19:11 - Jan 23 with 1357 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 15:48 - Jan 23 by Herbivore |
But I'm not sure there's much evidence they aren't being listened to, given that both Labour and the Tories promised to reduce immigration in the run up to the election? Sadly, they both also jumped aboard the 'stop the boats' rhetoric despite, as you say, that accounting for a very small proportion of immigration. And if they are wanting to stop the boats on humanitarian grounds I'd be all for it, particularly with a sensible solution that involves us offering safe alternatives.
But what is largely missing in the public discourse is that kind of nuanced debate and a discussion of immigration, pros as well as cons, that is based on evidence and not emotive populism. It seems you think the opposite, that public discourse is ignoring or is fully pro immigration and thus not taking account of public opinion. That's not what I'm seeing. |
This. The argument about not listening is bizarre. Its almost all thats been covered in large sections of the press for years now, almost all that Braverman, Badenoch et al ever talk about, and was a major subject talked about by labour very recently when the figures came through.
Seems like apologetics for populist bigots. | | | |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 19:33 - Jan 23 with 1309 views | Herbivore |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 19:11 - Jan 23 by redrickstuhaart |
This. The argument about not listening is bizarre. Its almost all thats been covered in large sections of the press for years now, almost all that Braverman, Badenoch et al ever talk about, and was a major subject talked about by labour very recently when the figures came through.
Seems like apologetics for populist bigots. |
In the spirit of being understanding of Lowie, I think he would say that although there has been tough talk on immigration, the numbers have gone up and up. And that's broken trust in politicians and makes it seem that they don't really care about immigration.
Now, my own worry is on how that rhetoric has developed over recent years to the extent that mainstream political parties are using the language of the old UKIP much of the time. It's hugely poisoned the well and there's no sensible, reasoned, evidence based debate about immigration in most circles. It's all very reactionary.
But I do understand his point that actual action on immigration might be a way to appease the public and hamstring Farage. My worry is that is overly optimistic and Farage will continue with the same demonising rhetoric even if we do see reductions in numbers. So long as people see people around them who look and sound different, populists can continue pushing their anti-immigration tropes. If we are going to try and bring numbers down it needs to be accompanied by a different tone of discussion and debate around immigration so that we don't keep reverting to othering people in response to complex socio-economic problems. | |
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| Trump....all you need to know. on 20:20 - Jan 23 with 1252 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 18:03 - Jan 23 by Europablue |
I might have voted for Brexit on principle, but I voted remain because of practicalities and out of realism. I didn't have any faith in the leaders following through with Brexit that could be successful.
Brexit doesn't have a huge effect on people living in the UK, but it has a huge effect on people living in the EU. |
I’ll correct that for you. Brexit hasn’t had a huge effect on you. Because you’re not aware of the impacts, it doesn’t mean it hasn’t had an effect. It cost me one job, indirectly cost me my next one and I lost about 300 colleagues thanks to that idiocy. Plus £millions per year lost for projects. That’s just the impact on me and my last workplace. There are loads of people and organisations adversely affected in one way or another. |  |
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| Trump....all you need to know. on 20:32 - Jan 23 with 1233 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 19:33 - Jan 23 by Herbivore |
In the spirit of being understanding of Lowie, I think he would say that although there has been tough talk on immigration, the numbers have gone up and up. And that's broken trust in politicians and makes it seem that they don't really care about immigration.
Now, my own worry is on how that rhetoric has developed over recent years to the extent that mainstream political parties are using the language of the old UKIP much of the time. It's hugely poisoned the well and there's no sensible, reasoned, evidence based debate about immigration in most circles. It's all very reactionary.
But I do understand his point that actual action on immigration might be a way to appease the public and hamstring Farage. My worry is that is overly optimistic and Farage will continue with the same demonising rhetoric even if we do see reductions in numbers. So long as people see people around them who look and sound different, populists can continue pushing their anti-immigration tropes. If we are going to try and bring numbers down it needs to be accompanied by a different tone of discussion and debate around immigration so that we don't keep reverting to othering people in response to complex socio-economic problems. |
The national conversation about immigration is a mess. Nearly half the immigration is made up over overseas students coming here each year. That’s good, especially since our government has deliberately frozen home student fees for years. Attracting overseas students has been the only thing keeping universities going. It’s one of the few areas we genuinely are amongst the best globally, but everyone from politicians to the public wants to kill it.
Half of the remaining immigration is lobbied for by companies - again, it seems people want our companies to be less effective and competitive.
The head banging, right wing press and populists have won the battle though unfortunately. Foreigners are the enemy we’ve been given to distract us from the real reasons inequality is growing and why people can’t get a GP appointment. | |
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| Trump....all you need to know. on 20:42 - Jan 23 with 1190 views | lowhouseblue |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 20:32 - Jan 23 by Swansea_Blue |
The national conversation about immigration is a mess. Nearly half the immigration is made up over overseas students coming here each year. That’s good, especially since our government has deliberately frozen home student fees for years. Attracting overseas students has been the only thing keeping universities going. It’s one of the few areas we genuinely are amongst the best globally, but everyone from politicians to the public wants to kill it.
Half of the remaining immigration is lobbied for by companies - again, it seems people want our companies to be less effective and competitive.
The head banging, right wing press and populists have won the battle though unfortunately. Foreigners are the enemy we’ve been given to distract us from the real reasons inequality is growing and why people can’t get a GP appointment. |
students don't figure in NET migration (the 3 million figure). arrivals are matched by departures when they graduate. ONS data shows that only 1/3rd of migration is for employment reasons and that includes dependents who make up about one half of that third. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Trump....all you need to know. on 20:43 - Jan 23 with 1180 views | Herbivore |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 20:32 - Jan 23 by Swansea_Blue |
The national conversation about immigration is a mess. Nearly half the immigration is made up over overseas students coming here each year. That’s good, especially since our government has deliberately frozen home student fees for years. Attracting overseas students has been the only thing keeping universities going. It’s one of the few areas we genuinely are amongst the best globally, but everyone from politicians to the public wants to kill it.
Half of the remaining immigration is lobbied for by companies - again, it seems people want our companies to be less effective and competitive.
The head banging, right wing press and populists have won the battle though unfortunately. Foreigners are the enemy we’ve been given to distract us from the real reasons inequality is growing and why people can’t get a GP appointment. |
Yeah, the student numbers thing is a good point. Higher education has been one of our few success stories in the UK in recent decades but funding has effectively ben frozen for a decade and only international student income has propped the sector up. Now that's under as track, the sector is in real trouble. | |
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| Trump....all you need to know. on 21:26 - Jan 23 with 1109 views | Europablue |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 16:52 - Jan 23 by Herbivore |
I do wonder whether as many people would be as exercised about immigration if they'd seen their standard of living improving, public services being in good health, and their cost of living being affordable. I understand lowie's point that immigration may contribute to some of these issues, particularly the potential strain on public services, but these issues are not primarily or even mainly the result of immigration. Things were going south well before the incredibly high immigration figures of the last few years. We know from history that people then look to blame 'others' as it provides a simple answer to complex problems and can lead to quite horrific consequences. That's why I can appreciate lowie and I agree on a fair bit, but fundamentally disagree on some other important parts of this debate. |
I think the part of Lowie's analysis that you should take particular note of, is that immigration changed after Brexit in a way that has not been good for the public finances or social cohesion. | | | |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 21:31 - Jan 23 with 1106 views | Europablue |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 17:08 - Jan 23 by lowhouseblue |
you and herbivore (below) must be right that there is much more going on than just immigration. if public services were perfect, houses were plentiful and incomes were growing then the reaction may well be very different. but we are where we are. my interest is how do we stop people like farage and avoid ending up where the us and, increasingly, much of europe is. and i do think that it is more than economics - it is an increasing erosion of political trust. lots of people don't believe they have been listened to and they increasingly think there is a dominant political establishment that doesn't represent their interests. immigration stands out as a topic where the centrists are out of touch and give lots of people the impression of not caring. i think the us election has had a big effect on me and the fact that so many blue collar voters essentially felt the washington democrats were a self-serving out of touch elite (the bbc's justin webb is very good on this). |
The contempt that the political class have towards the common people was summed up so well by that hot mic incident that Gordon Brown suffered when he called a normal woman with normal concerns something like an awful woman.
The ruling class just react by labelling people racist, and that has worked as a deflective tactic, but at the same time eroded trust in politicians because they all think that they are better than hardworking and struggling people. | | | |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 21:35 - Jan 23 with 1101 views | Europablue |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 17:14 - Jan 23 by leitrimblue |
I'm pretty sure if there had been a perceivable increase in the standard of living and the quality of public services etc immigration would not be as big a subject as it may be for some now.
To me solely blaming immigration rather then the actions of the last government ( and many before) that have failed to deal with the growing financial equality in the UK is a large part of the problem.
How many millions in the UK live in poverty? But you barely hear a politician mention it. |
Do you not think that the increase in immigration has negatively affected living standards and public services? Paired with very little infrastructure investment high immigration is a recipe for lowered living standards. Accommodation is ridiculously expensive these days and it's all about supply and demand.
The simple fact is that poor governance with minimal immigration is far better than poor governance with excessive immigration. | | | |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 21:39 - Jan 23 with 1098 views | Europablue |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 17:34 - Jan 23 by Herbivore |
The problem is that those voters have voted for a genuinely self-serving elite instead, and it's the populists who have helped to ensure that trust in political institutions is eroded through making outlandish promises they can't keep and throwing out baseless claims about their opponents. Do you counter that by adopting similar tactics, or at least by pivoting to the agenda the populists have set? Or do you counter it by trying to offer a genuine alternative, both an alternative narrative and a different form of politics. It seems to me we've spent a lot of time doing the former rather than the latter and you aren't likely to beat the populists on their home turf. |
The governing class lost more trust during Covid than any other time. There was no opposition to the measures as all parties were in lock step.
For now the populists are quite attractive because at least they are offering people to listen to their concerns. It would be very easy to counteract them, you just can't be too scared of offending people. | | | |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 21:48 - Jan 23 with 1075 views | Europablue |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 18:22 - Jan 23 by Herbivore |
Brexit doesn't have a huge effect on people living in the UK? Apart, of course, from the economic harm it's done, the restrictions on our ability to live and work in other European countries, and the deep societal divisions and poisoning of political discourse it's caused or exacerbated. I guess if we ignore all that, there's really no difference. |
In comparison to British people living in Europe, no it hardly has an effect. Most people living in the UK do not live and work in Europe.
The "deep societal divisions and poisoning of political discourse" were caused by the debate and subsequent divide. The whole problem was caused by successive governments believing they know best and not giving the people a say. Even if the ruling elites do not agree with the people, they have to go along with their instructions.
No referendum settled by such a fine margin was ever going to have a positive outcome. | | | |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 21:49 - Jan 23 with 1080 views | Swailsey |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 15:29 - Jan 22 by LeifingLaVidaLoca |
Seeing as we are having an old timers reunion… Good to see you back Herbie.
SM x |
Herbie’s back! Yay!!! |  |
| Who said: "Colin Healy made Cesc Fabregas look like Colin Healy"? | We miss you TLA |
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| Trump....all you need to know. on 21:52 - Jan 23 with 1059 views | Europablue |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 18:27 - Jan 23 by Herbivore |
Sorry mate, I'm not a dog so I can't hear that whistle. |
Sorry mate, your gas lighting doesn't work unless you try being at least a little bit subtle. | | | |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 21:54 - Jan 23 with 1055 views | Europablue |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 18:27 - Jan 23 by positivity |
best to ignore this europa loon.
he's an anti-immigrant who's so keen on britain that he emigrated away from it, he's got no idea on modern british society! |
This is exactly what Lowie was talking about. As soon as someone suggests that we might want to have sensible immigration, they are an anti-immigrant racist.
You are just feeding the populists that you claim to hate. If you get Farage, you will have earnt him. | | | |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 21:58 - Jan 23 with 1048 views | Europablue |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 20:20 - Jan 23 by Swansea_Blue |
I’ll correct that for you. Brexit hasn’t had a huge effect on you. Because you’re not aware of the impacts, it doesn’t mean it hasn’t had an effect. It cost me one job, indirectly cost me my next one and I lost about 300 colleagues thanks to that idiocy. Plus £millions per year lost for projects. That’s just the impact on me and my last workplace. There are loads of people and organisations adversely affected in one way or another. |
I'll correct you on that, because you don't know me and you don't know my situation and I actually have suffered from Brexit.
My point wasn't about your case, and I'm sorry to hear that.
The average British person will not suffer as much as an average British person living in the EU and who has family in the EU. | | | |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 22:00 - Jan 23 with 1052 views | Herbivore |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 21:52 - Jan 23 by Europablue |
Sorry mate, your gas lighting doesn't work unless you try being at least a little bit subtle. |
I don't think you know what gaslighting means. I know what dog whistling means and I know exactly what you're doing with your contributions. | |
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| Trump....all you need to know. on 22:17 - Jan 23 with 1005 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 21:26 - Jan 23 by Europablue |
I think the part of Lowie's analysis that you should take particular note of, is that immigration changed after Brexit in a way that has not been good for the public finances or social cohesion. |
That’s what people wanted though. They literally voted for a decrease in EU immigration which was well known to have a positive economic impact for an increase in non-EU immigration which was known to be less beneficial. And people are still not accounting for students, the numbers of which have risen dramatically and are a large part of the story although they’re transient. | |
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| Trump....all you need to know. on 22:20 - Jan 23 with 991 views | lowhouseblue |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 22:17 - Jan 23 by Swansea_Blue |
That’s what people wanted though. They literally voted for a decrease in EU immigration which was well known to have a positive economic impact for an increase in non-EU immigration which was known to be less beneficial. And people are still not accounting for students, the numbers of which have risen dramatically and are a large part of the story although they’re transient. |
again students do not enter into the net migration figures - the 3 million over 4 years. students arrive for their first and the same number approx leaves because they've graduated. flows v. stocks. the ins net out against the outs.
i agree about brexit - i voted remain. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Trump....all you need to know. on 22:57 - Jan 23 with 905 views | reusersfreekicks |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 21:54 - Jan 23 by Europablue |
This is exactly what Lowie was talking about. As soon as someone suggests that we might want to have sensible immigration, they are an anti-immigrant racist.
You are just feeding the populists that you claim to hate. If you get Farage, you will have earnt him. |
Probably said that more for your acting as an apologist for Trump and Farage for a number of months now. You said the main problem you had with Trump was that he was rude.
Never mind his efforts to overturn democracy, his criminal acts, his demonising of immigrants, his compulsive lying and his desire for an undemocratic oligarchy.
Also defending Farage's dog whistling after the Southport murders.
Herbie has been away for a while so has probably missed your highlights.
The rest of us can see through your faux intellectualism |  | | |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 10:36 - Jan 27 with 561 views | Europablue |
| Trump....all you need to know. on 22:00 - Jan 23 by Herbivore |
I don't think you know what gaslighting means. I know what dog whistling means and I know exactly what you're doing with your contributions. |
A person who thinks he knows what is going on is a very dangerous thing.
Anyone posing an opposing opinion to yours can easily be put in the "dog whistling" category for you even though that it probably not their intention.
"I don't think you know what gaslighting means" is exactly what someone would say if they were gaslighting me. | | | |
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