| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? 16:20 - Feb 10 with 9077 views | TresBonne |
Interested in a debate over this purely because I have just met the former CEO of a gambling company at a talk he did, and I was a little shocked at how blaise he was about problem gambling and the issues surrounding his line of work.
His main argument really, and he couldn't let on too much over this because it was an 'ethics' talk (which I thought quite ironic in itself!), was that it is more the fault of the punter in the majority of cases and they should be taking more accountability for getting themselves there in the first place.
I just wonder what other people's opinions are on this? To be honest, I left the talk feeling a little sick over it. I didn't like the arrogance, smugness that he had. [Post edited 10 Feb 16:21]
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| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 21:40 - Feb 10 with 1979 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 20:53 - Feb 10 by Dubtractor |
I don't have an issue with gambling per se, although I don't gamble myself, but the extent to which it is advertised at us any time we go to football, listen to sport radio, or watch sport on the telly is mental. There is no way it should be allowed to that extent, and to just class it all as 'fun' is a massively one sided look at it.
I get that it is a subject very close to your heart, both personally and professionally, but I think it is a little naïve to think its just a bit of fun when it is such a big money industry now. I can understand why you'd push back on some of the stuff Mullet has compared it to, but I have some sympathy with his general point, even if the examples are a bit extreme! |
I absolutely agree about it needing to be regulated more. Tv adverts etc. No arguments here.
I am however in no way the same to a ‘smack dealer’ and he’s frankly out of order for doubling down on it. |  |
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| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 21:43 - Feb 10 with 1970 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 21:38 - Feb 10 by Bigalhunter |
I assume all these companies that swamp every ad break during each and every sport event on Sky, TNT and Eurosport are the main problem? Just seen four in a row during the break in the snooker (don’t judge me, I’m babysitting the grandkids)
Mr Vegas
Ladbrokes and their ‘Gaffa of an Accra’
Paddy Power
32 Red
As someone who only ever places occasional bets on things I don’t want to happen, I’m just interested. |
Eurosport being a sports only channel and it being after 8pm will mean almost every ad is gambling for what it’s worth.
Ladbrokes and Paddy Power are major firms. The other two minor. Then there are minor casino firms that are proper dodgy that advertise in circuits like WhatsApp as ‘not being in GameStop’ so those companies are definitely scum. None of these are UK licensed though and wouldn’t be on tv advertising for example.
Edit - for what it’s worth I also am watching the snooker. I have a rollup on a Cheltenham horse with Mark Allen, Zhang Anda, Tom Ford and John Higgins. 7/2 on the four players going on to the Cheltenham horse if I can get to that stage. Moody has been excellent for most of this but his decision making at times being abit naive may cost him. He’s had a good season though and staying on the tour is all he needed to do this year and that’s almost job done for him [Post edited 10 Feb 21:45]
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| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 21:43 - Feb 10 with 1968 views | Dubtractor |
| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 21:40 - Feb 10 by The_Romford_Blue |
I absolutely agree about it needing to be regulated more. Tv adverts etc. No arguments here.
I am however in no way the same to a ‘smack dealer’ and he’s frankly out of order for doubling down on it. |
Would you say it's more like being a weed dealer?
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| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 22:14 - Feb 10 with 1904 views | Mullet |
| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 21:40 - Feb 10 by The_Romford_Blue |
I absolutely agree about it needing to be regulated more. Tv adverts etc. No arguments here.
I am however in no way the same to a ‘smack dealer’ and he’s frankly out of order for doubling down on it. |
Doubling down is not the same as not completely changing my mind because you say so. The fact you both try and downplay and defend the social harm gambling does, whilst saying it needs regulating. That shows exactly what I’m talking about.
It’s an industry that exploits vulnerable people normalises addictive behaviours. The cultural change of gambling now it’s on our phones and everywhere is a massive social ill.
Go to a game now and watch how many young lads are checking odds and scores all game because it’s so prevalent and always to access. When you had to go to a kiosk before or after a game, or physically place bets in a shop, match day gambling was a different beast.
The invasive nature of it and fact it props up so much to do with football now is sickening to me. If you’re fine with it, that’s fair enough but if you assume that everyone else should be too you’re going to carry on being upset. This thread highlights exactly how corrupt the industry is without really going too deep after all. |  |
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| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 22:26 - Feb 10 with 1885 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 22:14 - Feb 10 by Mullet |
Doubling down is not the same as not completely changing my mind because you say so. The fact you both try and downplay and defend the social harm gambling does, whilst saying it needs regulating. That shows exactly what I’m talking about.
It’s an industry that exploits vulnerable people normalises addictive behaviours. The cultural change of gambling now it’s on our phones and everywhere is a massive social ill.
Go to a game now and watch how many young lads are checking odds and scores all game because it’s so prevalent and always to access. When you had to go to a kiosk before or after a game, or physically place bets in a shop, match day gambling was a different beast.
The invasive nature of it and fact it props up so much to do with football now is sickening to me. If you’re fine with it, that’s fair enough but if you assume that everyone else should be too you’re going to carry on being upset. This thread highlights exactly how corrupt the industry is without really going too deep after all. |
It is doubling down. I challenged you on whether I’m the same as a heroine dealer and you’ve continued that stance. Therefore you are being a kn0b. I’m not sure why.
In fact, it’s a ridiculous and pretty disgusting comparison. I work with something involving addiction so therefore automatically am the same as a smack dealer? Would you like me to make a horrifically offensive comparison involving your job? Not that I’d do that - because I’m not a kn0b. Considering we’ve met in real life, I’m astounded you have decided to be quite as personal.
Ironically on here I’be always said I’d have slots shut down, no unlicensed gambling firms allowed, maximum stakes on machines decreased (as has happened) and many other safer gambling things. I think you’ve come across poorly on this thread. I’ll leave it there. | |
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| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 23:05 - Feb 10 with 1823 views | StokieBlue |
| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 19:41 - Feb 10 by The_Romford_Blue |
Can only speak for my firm but we’d limit punters who are winning big rather than close. Or limit things that they are gaining from that are added extras such as best odds guaranteed.
As for the stuff regarding gambling issues, we do a huge amount of stuff to protect customers from harm. At some point though, they do also need to take some accountability.
If they’ve got £100 left in the world and are putting it into our site, is that on us? I’m not sure it is. |
This seems like a position of cognitive dissonance. Happy to take the last of someone's money but not happy to let someone take yours.
The fact that successful winners are limited shows how the industry attempts to cap one side of the scales whilst exploiting the other.
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| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 23:19 - Feb 10 with 1793 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 23:05 - Feb 10 by StokieBlue |
This seems like a position of cognitive dissonance. Happy to take the last of someone's money but not happy to let someone take yours.
The fact that successful winners are limited shows how the industry attempts to cap one side of the scales whilst exploiting the other.
SB |
The exploiting stuff isn’t us though. That’s the small casino firms who are usually unlicensed.
If we knew it was the punters last £100, they wouldn’t be allowed to deposit.
We wouldn’t always limit punters who were winning - that’s a rare situation. If they’re winning a lot, we’d check as to why (but I’m good at my job so most of the time it’s me winning). If we can see they’re using specific technology and are arbing, that’s be limited. That’s just the way it is. It’s the same as someone using a robot to buy tickets for concerts. Eventually ticketmaster limit the person to how and what they can buy. It’s no different here.
As a punter, I myself am restricted with half a dozen bookies. William hill lay me less that £1 on greyhound bets. Betway my max bet on anything is £6. There’s plenty of other accounts. Betfair exchange etc. [Post edited 10 Feb 23:21]
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| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 23:23 - Feb 10 with 1772 views | StokieBlue |
| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 23:19 - Feb 10 by The_Romford_Blue |
The exploiting stuff isn’t us though. That’s the small casino firms who are usually unlicensed.
If we knew it was the punters last £100, they wouldn’t be allowed to deposit.
We wouldn’t always limit punters who were winning - that’s a rare situation. If they’re winning a lot, we’d check as to why (but I’m good at my job so most of the time it’s me winning). If we can see they’re using specific technology and are arbing, that’s be limited. That’s just the way it is. It’s the same as someone using a robot to buy tickets for concerts. Eventually ticketmaster limit the person to how and what they can buy. It’s no different here.
As a punter, I myself am restricted with half a dozen bookies. William hill lay me less that £1 on greyhound bets. Betway my max bet on anything is £6. There’s plenty of other accounts. Betfair exchange etc. [Post edited 10 Feb 23:21]
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OK - thanks for the clarification.
For the middle paragraph though, you're essentially saying that you can use an algorithm but punters can't. I'm not sure your example is correct though, Ticketmaster don't make money out of people using an algorithm so it's fair enough to ban others using them - that's not the case for your industry.
The fact that your restricted with other bookies doesn't change my point - I think that's wrong as well and you shouldn't be.
SB [Post edited 10 Feb 23:25]
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| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 23:56 - Feb 10 with 1698 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 23:23 - Feb 10 by StokieBlue |
OK - thanks for the clarification.
For the middle paragraph though, you're essentially saying that you can use an algorithm but punters can't. I'm not sure your example is correct though, Ticketmaster don't make money out of people using an algorithm so it's fair enough to ban others using them - that's not the case for your industry.
The fact that your restricted with other bookies doesn't change my point - I think that's wrong as well and you shouldn't be.
SB [Post edited 10 Feb 23:25]
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I’m not sure what you mean about me using an algorithm? I don’t use anything other than form study, percentage maths and my own opinion in order to create the odds. There’s no secret computer doing the work for me | |
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| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 04:08 - Feb 11 with 1616 views | Benters |
| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 22:26 - Feb 10 by The_Romford_Blue |
It is doubling down. I challenged you on whether I’m the same as a heroine dealer and you’ve continued that stance. Therefore you are being a kn0b. I’m not sure why.
In fact, it’s a ridiculous and pretty disgusting comparison. I work with something involving addiction so therefore automatically am the same as a smack dealer? Would you like me to make a horrifically offensive comparison involving your job? Not that I’d do that - because I’m not a kn0b. Considering we’ve met in real life, I’m astounded you have decided to be quite as personal.
Ironically on here I’be always said I’d have slots shut down, no unlicensed gambling firms allowed, maximum stakes on machines decreased (as has happened) and many other safer gambling things. I think you’ve come across poorly on this thread. I’ll leave it there. |
‘A fool and his money are easily parted’ I can see why someone would enjoy going to Cheltenham for the races etc,even though it’s not my cup of tea so to speak.
I think if you enjoy it gambling that is,what was the advert ‘when the fun stops,stop’ or something like that?
I must admit it used to wind me up people checking on line watching the footie,I thought they were mostly looking at the other scores,it didn’t even occur to me until Mullet said it they were checking their bets. |  |
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| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 07:32 - Feb 11 with 1511 views | StokieBlue |
| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 23:56 - Feb 10 by The_Romford_Blue |
I’m not sure what you mean about me using an algorithm? I don’t use anything other than form study, percentage maths and my own opinion in order to create the odds. There’s no secret computer doing the work for me |
I meant the industry in general, the wider "you". I don't know what your specific job entailed until you gave more background in this latest post.
I assume many companies do use algorithms and to be honest I am surprised there isn't at least a checking algo which confirms the price you've set is between some know bounds based on some form of consensus range.
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| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 11:38 - Feb 11 with 1433 views | tractorboy1978 |
| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 20:14 - Feb 10 by The_Romford_Blue |
I’ve worked in the industry for 6 years now. In 2 shops and now make the odds for a firm with tens of thousands of customers.
So yes I obviously have seen gambling addiction first hand. Customers with any signs of gambling issues are called up. We will also require checks made on finances so they can only lose what they can afford. And any sign of gambling issue and they’re taken off all marketing emails etc.
Only once someone in the responsible gambling team has spoke to them first hand AND we’ve seen further proof that they’re losing an acceptable amount to what themselves and the gambling commission agree to, will we then let them continue betting.
To suggest people like myself are no better than loan sharks or predators or heroin dealers is both completely unfair and also somewhat misinformed. There’s a massive difference between professional firms such as ours and those shoddy casino sites registered overseas doing all they can to target those truly vulnerable. To tar us all in with the same brush isn’t right. |
Out of interest, how do they identify customers with signs of gambling issues? Volume of bets in a certain period of time? And by what metric do they judge what is an acceptable amount to be losing? |  | | |
| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 12:26 - Feb 11 with 1398 views | J2BLUE |
| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 04:08 - Feb 11 by Benters |
‘A fool and his money are easily parted’ I can see why someone would enjoy going to Cheltenham for the races etc,even though it’s not my cup of tea so to speak.
I think if you enjoy it gambling that is,what was the advert ‘when the fun stops,stop’ or something like that?
I must admit it used to wind me up people checking on line watching the footie,I thought they were mostly looking at the other scores,it didn’t even occur to me until Mullet said it they were checking their bets. |
I think if you enjoy it gambling that is,what was the advert ‘when the fun stops,stop’ or something like that?
What relevance is this? Many people enjoy Cheltenham for the betting. Without betting there wouldn't be too much interest. People can have a bet without having a problem. |  |
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| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 13:02 - Feb 11 with 1325 views | portmanking |
There's a very simple solution to evading bookies and that's by simply using betting exchanges instead. There, you can find value odds and your scale is only limited by the liquidity available on the other side of the book.
It baffles me that the Betfair Exchange isn't the go-to platform for every sports bettor.
So often I've had mates win on the National or something at 6/1 and I've said I got on at 10/1 at the Exchange. They're irritated for a second, but never once think to explore why that's the case and that the Exchange is just a fairer place for bettors and layers alike. [Post edited 11 Feb 13:03]
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| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 13:46 - Feb 11 with 1276 views | Mullet |
| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 22:26 - Feb 10 by The_Romford_Blue |
It is doubling down. I challenged you on whether I’m the same as a heroine dealer and you’ve continued that stance. Therefore you are being a kn0b. I’m not sure why.
In fact, it’s a ridiculous and pretty disgusting comparison. I work with something involving addiction so therefore automatically am the same as a smack dealer? Would you like me to make a horrifically offensive comparison involving your job? Not that I’d do that - because I’m not a kn0b. Considering we’ve met in real life, I’m astounded you have decided to be quite as personal.
Ironically on here I’be always said I’d have slots shut down, no unlicensed gambling firms allowed, maximum stakes on machines decreased (as has happened) and many other safer gambling things. I think you’ve come across poorly on this thread. I’ll leave it there. |
Given that I wasn’t talking about you initially but you seem to have turned the whole thread about you, then yeah, I think it’s a sh1t industry and it’s wrong to work in it. Your defence of the harm it does is pretty laughable.
You started gambling underage and have carried on immersing yourself in it, so it’s no surprise you see nothing outside what suits your views. But if you want to throw around insults because you don’t like hearing it, why should I care if you only want to pay lip service to or minimise the harm it does?
If it upsets you that people think so poorly of gambling maybe you need to look inside and question that, not just comfort yourself with “well there’s worse out there” because it doesn’t sound like it’s us on here that need convincing. | |
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| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 14:39 - Feb 11 with 1223 views | J2BLUE |
| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 13:02 - Feb 11 by portmanking |
There's a very simple solution to evading bookies and that's by simply using betting exchanges instead. There, you can find value odds and your scale is only limited by the liquidity available on the other side of the book.
It baffles me that the Betfair Exchange isn't the go-to platform for every sports bettor.
So often I've had mates win on the National or something at 6/1 and I've said I got on at 10/1 at the Exchange. They're irritated for a second, but never once think to explore why that's the case and that the Exchange is just a fairer place for bettors and layers alike. [Post edited 11 Feb 13:03]
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They have a big reduction in the number of markets though. They are also terrified of getting fined and now take affordability checks to the extreme. I've seen people depositing £500 being asked to prove where their savings came from. In one case someone was asked to prove they had inherited money years previously.
With that said I am increasingly a fan of Betdaq. They really seem open to listening to their users about what options are on the site. | |
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| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 14:49 - Feb 11 with 1191 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 13:46 - Feb 11 by Mullet |
Given that I wasn’t talking about you initially but you seem to have turned the whole thread about you, then yeah, I think it’s a sh1t industry and it’s wrong to work in it. Your defence of the harm it does is pretty laughable.
You started gambling underage and have carried on immersing yourself in it, so it’s no surprise you see nothing outside what suits your views. But if you want to throw around insults because you don’t like hearing it, why should I care if you only want to pay lip service to or minimise the harm it does?
If it upsets you that people think so poorly of gambling maybe you need to look inside and question that, not just comfort yourself with “well there’s worse out there” because it doesn’t sound like it’s us on here that need convincing. |
Turned this whole thread about me? I was literally named in the thread 12 hours before I’d even replied.
And you’re the only one who’s referred to anyone who’s involved in betting as a smack dealer. It’s offensive just because I work with something harmful. You work with children, it’s like me saying you’re automatically a nonce then. It’s obviously not the case. It’s an outlandish stupid thing to say. Just like your gambling = drug dealer/scumbag comment. Except I wouldn’t say that because I’m not a moron whereas you’ve decided to be a moron. I work in an industry you don’t like. That’s literally it. You used to be alright. What went wrong?
And also when have I defended the harm it does? I’ve said for years it can cause devastation. But it can also provide joy and enjoyment for hundreds of millions of others. It’s in no way comparable to a smack dealer. And I have a huge issue with your suggestion that I’m the same. | |
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| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 14:50 - Feb 11 with 1185 views | J2BLUE |
| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 13:46 - Feb 11 by Mullet |
Given that I wasn’t talking about you initially but you seem to have turned the whole thread about you, then yeah, I think it’s a sh1t industry and it’s wrong to work in it. Your defence of the harm it does is pretty laughable.
You started gambling underage and have carried on immersing yourself in it, so it’s no surprise you see nothing outside what suits your views. But if you want to throw around insults because you don’t like hearing it, why should I care if you only want to pay lip service to or minimise the harm it does?
If it upsets you that people think so poorly of gambling maybe you need to look inside and question that, not just comfort yourself with “well there’s worse out there” because it doesn’t sound like it’s us on here that need convincing. |
With respect, your comments were over the top in my opinion. I don't think he's pushing back because he can't face truth. He's pushing back because the comparison is ridiculous.
What other people think of gambling is up to them. | |
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| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 14:54 - Feb 11 with 1167 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 14:50 - Feb 11 by J2BLUE |
With respect, your comments were over the top in my opinion. I don't think he's pushing back because he can't face truth. He's pushing back because the comparison is ridiculous.
What other people think of gambling is up to them. |
Exactly that. I have absolutely no issue with people who are against gambling. My mum is one.
I have just tried to use another extreme comparison now to see how he likes it. It might make him understand how unfair it is. I work as an odds compiler for a major UK firm who fulfil every single responsible gambling requirement (and more) but because I work there I’m a scumbag and the equivalent of a heroin dealer? It’s a disgraceful comparison and the more he doubles down, the more it pisses me off.
He’s a moron. | |
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| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 15:39 - Feb 11 with 1056 views | hype313 |
The sooner it goes the way of Cigarettes the better.
Ban all advertising and whack a 80% tax on all bets. |  |
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| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 16:11 - Feb 11 with 998 views | DanTheMan |
I'd have to dig out the book I read this in (fairly sure it was Butler to the World) but wasn't that all caused by loads of betting companies working out they could flock to Gibraltar to avoid all kinds of regulations and then to bring back all the tax we essentially had to entice them by liberalising it as you've said. |  |
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| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 17:16 - Feb 11 with 925 views | DJR |
| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 16:11 - Feb 11 by DanTheMan |
I'd have to dig out the book I read this in (fairly sure it was Butler to the World) but wasn't that all caused by loads of betting companies working out they could flock to Gibraltar to avoid all kinds of regulations and then to bring back all the tax we essentially had to entice them by liberalising it as you've said. |
I may be wrong but I am not sure that is right at least at the time the 2005 Act was enacted, although the 2005 Act did regulate online betting..
This from a 2011 report from the Culture, Media and Sports Act.
"While the [2005] Act permitted UK-based companies to offer online gambling services and continued to allow non-UK providers to target UK consumers, only the UK-based providers were made subject to regulation by the Gambling Commission. The decision to regulate online gambling at the point-of-supply rather than the point-of-consumption and to allow non-UK regulated providers to operate into the UK was widely criticised. This together with significant tax increases had led to migration of online providers offshore. There was broad consensus that the 2005 Act has, thus far, failed to produce a future-proofed regulatory structure for the remote and offshore online gambling industry."
And in 2014, the 2005 Act was amended so that an overseas-based operator who makes remote gambling facilities available on the internet will need to obtain an operating licence from the Commission if their website is used in Great Britain and the operator knows, or should know, that the facilities are being used or are likely to be used in Great Britain. If the overseas operator wants to avoid having to obtain a licence, they will need to take action to prevent consumers using their website here.
But I am happy to be corrected, and maybe we are talking at cross purposes. [Post edited 11 Feb 17:20]
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| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 17:16 - Feb 11 with 921 views | StNeotsBlue |
| Gambling harms - punter vs bookmaker, who's at fault? on 15:39 - Feb 11 by hype313 |
The sooner it goes the way of Cigarettes the better.
Ban all advertising and whack a 80% tax on all bets. |
Why punish everyone? The vast majority can enjoy a bet without it becoming a problem, I'd add I'm speaking as someone who has a very close family member for whom gambling was a very problematic issue. |  | | |
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