| £10k fine for this on 16:58 - Feb 20 with 1553 views | NedPlimpton |
| £10k fine for this on 16:41 - Feb 20 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Speculation on my part. But I certainly think it may be the case. |
You called Ryorry for speculating yet you've done exactly the same
Are you suggesting that Hermoso wouldn't have felt that it was a non-consensual act or felt violated if she hadn't been "influenced"? |  | |  |
| £10k fine for this on 17:03 - Feb 20 with 1563 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| £10k fine for this on 16:58 - Feb 20 by NedPlimpton |
You called Ryorry for speculating yet you've done exactly the same
Are you suggesting that Hermoso wouldn't have felt that it was a non-consensual act or felt violated if she hadn't been "influenced"? |
Yes, and I admitted to speculating too.
Its OK to speculate, this is a forum, not a court of law.
I pointed out that she was speculating, and said I was happy to be corrected if she had the info.
I do think its possible that she may well have not viewed it in that way initially, yes. It would be Ok if she didnt feel it was a violation, and of course its also 100% OK for her to seek charges if she did feel violated. I just think she may have been pressured into seeking charges.
Only she will ever know. |  |
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| £10k fine for this on 17:08 - Feb 20 with 1510 views | BarcaBlue |
| £10k fine for this on 17:03 - Feb 20 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Yes, and I admitted to speculating too.
Its OK to speculate, this is a forum, not a court of law.
I pointed out that she was speculating, and said I was happy to be corrected if she had the info.
I do think its possible that she may well have not viewed it in that way initially, yes. It would be Ok if she didnt feel it was a violation, and of course its also 100% OK for her to seek charges if she did feel violated. I just think she may have been pressured into seeking charges.
Only she will ever know. |
So rather than seeing her as the victim here you are possibly acusing her of lying? |  | | |
| £10k fine for this on 17:11 - Feb 20 with 1503 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| £10k fine for this on 17:08 - Feb 20 by BarcaBlue |
So rather than seeing her as the victim here you are possibly acusing her of lying? |
I think she may have been pressured into seeking charges.
She was clearly the victim of an inappropriate action made by the Rubiales, but yes I think she may have been pressured to bring charges.
As you said yourself, its OK to disagree. | |
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| £10k fine for this on 17:37 - Feb 20 with 1470 views | NedPlimpton |
| £10k fine for this on 17:11 - Feb 20 by Marshalls_Mullet |
I think she may have been pressured into seeking charges.
She was clearly the victim of an inappropriate action made by the Rubiales, but yes I think she may have been pressured to bring charges.
As you said yourself, its OK to disagree. |
Sorry, but I don't think it is ok to speculate on what a victim of sexual assault's motivations are for calling it out
This sort of attitude is on par with victim blaming and if the rest of the public held that view it would only serve to discourage people from bringing cases forward | | | |
| £10k fine for this on 17:41 - Feb 20 with 1471 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| £10k fine for this on 17:37 - Feb 20 by NedPlimpton |
Sorry, but I don't think it is ok to speculate on what a victim of sexual assault's motivations are for calling it out
This sort of attitude is on par with victim blaming and if the rest of the public held that view it would only serve to discourage people from bringing cases forward |
You are entitled to your view.
I have my views, you have yours. Thats OK.
I appreciate you and a few others would like me to just agree with you, but thats not going to happen. Differing view points are OK.
I feel sorry for Phil and Gav, this thread is literally disappearing off the page! 😂😂
If you, Mullet, Ryorry or BarcaBlue feel the need to carry on the coversation, do feel free to send me a private message, but I think we know each others positions on this.
The great thing about this forum, is the ability to chat to other people and have a healthy discussion.
Peace out. | |
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| £10k fine for this on 17:48 - Feb 20 with 1411 views | FrimleyBlue |
| £10k fine for this on 17:11 - Feb 20 by Marshalls_Mullet |
I think she may have been pressured into seeking charges.
She was clearly the victim of an inappropriate action made by the Rubiales, but yes I think she may have been pressured to bring charges.
As you said yourself, its OK to disagree. |
Considering most of her team were laughing with her until 1 member apparently said it was wrong and serious. Then she felt she had no where to lay in the corner of the dressing room and cry.
Sorry its massively overblown. He shouldn't have done it. Likewise any person that touches anyone else no matter the occasion. He should have apologised she accepted and laughed it off and that would be the end of it.
Absolutely no reason to take that further imo. The other stuff absolutely. But he's been acquitted of those anyway. So we are literally talking about a celebrationary kiss being taken a sign of sexual assault. It's ridiculous.
Inappropriate absolutely. Not appropriate in his position definitely but sexual assault. Come on. |  |
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| £10k fine for this on 17:51 - Feb 20 with 1409 views | NedPlimpton |
| £10k fine for this on 17:41 - Feb 20 by Marshalls_Mullet |
You are entitled to your view.
I have my views, you have yours. Thats OK.
I appreciate you and a few others would like me to just agree with you, but thats not going to happen. Differing view points are OK.
I feel sorry for Phil and Gav, this thread is literally disappearing off the page! 😂😂
If you, Mullet, Ryorry or BarcaBlue feel the need to carry on the coversation, do feel free to send me a private message, but I think we know each others positions on this.
The great thing about this forum, is the ability to chat to other people and have a healthy discussion.
Peace out. |
Interesting style of engaging in a conversation
Completely make something up and then constantly remind everyone that it's ok to disagree with you before bowing out without allowing your opinion to stand up to any scrutiny
Fair play | | | |
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| £10k fine for this on 17:54 - Feb 20 with 1452 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| £10k fine for this on 17:51 - Feb 20 by NedPlimpton |
Interesting style of engaging in a conversation
Completely make something up and then constantly remind everyone that it's ok to disagree with you before bowing out without allowing your opinion to stand up to any scrutiny
Fair play |
👍👍
Drop me a DM if you like.
We know each others view point, and I don't think pages and pages of forum is going to bring us to a middle ground. Its just common sense. | |
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| £10k fine for this on 18:06 - Feb 20 with 1363 views | MK1 |
The bloke is a dick. He should have just apologized, then this wouldn't have been the story it was. He thought the Spanish FA & public would back him, which was arrogant at best. A bigger fine and 200 hours litter picking around Madrid would be as about as hard as you could go on this one. I hope that it makes men more aware of what is and isn't acceptable, then maybe some good has come from it. |  |
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| £10k fine for this on 18:50 - Feb 20 with 1285 views | Cafe_Newman |
| £10k fine for this on 16:44 - Feb 20 by Ryorry |
Downvoted for the stupid personal comment.
"suggests to me that Rubiales is paying a price for what other men have done to women before this event."
No I don't think tht's fair - thankfully the 21st century is grdually becoming more enlightened, & what Rubiales did was manifestly recognised by the vast majority as unacceptable & wrong, so he's quite rightly been punished for that, despite a few men still choosing to not listen to how women feel. |
I agree that Rubiales' actions were totally inappropriate and he certainly deserved to lose his position over his actions. I doubt there's anyone who'd disagree with that.
I asked you why you'd downvoted me and "what true self have I shown in my question?"
You said "Swanners put it very well, please read his reply."
Now you are saying that it's not fair that Rubiales appears to be paying a price for the actions of other men who had abused women in the past - yet that was the implication Swansea was making in his "very well put" comment. That makes no sense at all.
So I'll ask you again: a) Why did you downvote my question to the OP and b) What true self have I shown in my question? [Post edited 20 Feb 18:59]
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| £10k fine for this on 18:57 - Feb 20 with 1266 views | Swansea_Blue |
| £10k fine for this on 16:33 - Feb 20 by Cafe_Newman |
Swansea's comment "Against the backdrop of women being abused, sexualised, stalked and whatnot by weird, pushy or aggressive blokes, it’s a whole different thing" suggests to me that Rubiales is paying a price for what other men have done to women before this event. I think that's awful.
Do you think that's fair or should I ask Swansea for your answer? |
You’ve completely twisted what I said. I didn’t say he’s paying the price for other men’s actions at all. He’s paying the price for his own actions (irrespective of how lenient or not he’s been treated). He brought this on himself. Men are less likely to see those actions as a problem because they don’t understand how women feel about things like this. |  |
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| £10k fine for this on 19:13 - Feb 20 with 1235 views | Cafe_Newman |
| £10k fine for this on 18:57 - Feb 20 by Swansea_Blue |
You’ve completely twisted what I said. I didn’t say he’s paying the price for other men’s actions at all. He’s paying the price for his own actions (irrespective of how lenient or not he’s been treated). He brought this on himself. Men are less likely to see those actions as a problem because they don’t understand how women feel about things like this. |
I'm certainly not TRYING to twist what you said and I apologise if that's what I have done.
The only twisting I've intentionally done is to see your comment as an answer to my question to Ryorry. I did that because Ryorry refered me to your comment when I asked why she had downvoted my question and how, in asking that question, I had "shown myself". I have no quibble with your comment but I'm still struggling to understand how it answers my question to Ryorry. Can you shed any light on that? | | | |
| £10k fine for this on 19:20 - Feb 20 with 1215 views | Ryorry |
| £10k fine for this on 18:50 - Feb 20 by Cafe_Newman |
I agree that Rubiales' actions were totally inappropriate and he certainly deserved to lose his position over his actions. I doubt there's anyone who'd disagree with that.
I asked you why you'd downvoted me and "what true self have I shown in my question?"
You said "Swanners put it very well, please read his reply."
Now you are saying that it's not fair that Rubiales appears to be paying a price for the actions of other men who had abused women in the past - yet that was the implication Swansea was making in his "very well put" comment. That makes no sense at all.
So I'll ask you again: a) Why did you downvote my question to the OP and b) What true self have I shown in my question? [Post edited 20 Feb 18:59]
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1. "Now you are saying that it's not fair that Rubiales appears to be paying a price for the actions of other men who had abused women in the past. That makes no sense at all."
I said no such thing.
You posted
"Swansea's comment "Against the backdrop of women being abused, sexualised, stalked and whatnot by weird, pushy or aggressive blokes, it’s a whole different thing"
suggests to me that Rubiales is paying a price for what other men have done to women before this event. I think that's awful.
Do you think that's fair or should I ask Swansea for your answer?"
I replied "No I don't think that's fair - thankfully the 21st century is grdually becoming more enlightened, & what Rubiales did was manifestly recognised by the vast majority as unacceptable & wrong, so he's quite rightly been punished for that, despite a few men still choosing to not listen to how women feel."
I thought it was clear that I was saying I thought *your* comment was not fair. I was *not* saying that I thought Rubiales was in any way paying for centurie of history.
2. Swanners is more eloquent than me & put it better than I could at a point in the afternoon when I was short of time. I totally agree/d with him in particular when he said
"This is probably the main point. Viewed from a male perspective, it wasn’t a massive issue. Most blokes wouldn’t be particularly bothered if the roles were reversed. I expect some would have been delighted!
Against the backdrop of women being abused, sexualised, stalked and whatnot by weird, pushy or aggressive blokes, it’s a whole different thing."
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Generally, this forum has come on light years in terms of sexism, racism, homophobia etc. in the past 25 years - credit to Admins & the majority of users for that; clearly, however, it still has some way to go.
I can assure you that having some older man in a position of power suddenly slobber you, uninvited, full mouth on mouth in front of millions of people live on TV would be nauseating, embarrassing & humiliating. Perhaps you and a couple of others on this thread, if you don't have the imagination to comprehend that, could at least listen to and learn from women who've experienced it. |  |
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| £10k fine for this on 19:24 - Feb 20 with 1203 views | Swansea_Blue |
| £10k fine for this on 19:13 - Feb 20 by Cafe_Newman |
I'm certainly not TRYING to twist what you said and I apologise if that's what I have done.
The only twisting I've intentionally done is to see your comment as an answer to my question to Ryorry. I did that because Ryorry refered me to your comment when I asked why she had downvoted my question and how, in asking that question, I had "shown myself". I have no quibble with your comment but I'm still struggling to understand how it answers my question to Ryorry. Can you shed any light on that? |
My point was on how people are responding to this, rather than on how Rubiales has been treated which is the different angle of your question. I don’t know whether that helps. I was a bit abrupt reading that back, but didn’t mean to be, apologies.
I suspect (but obviously don’t know) that charges wouldn’t have been brought if it had been the other way round. | |
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| £10k fine for this on 19:27 - Feb 20 with 1202 views | Cafe_Newman |
| £10k fine for this on 19:20 - Feb 20 by Ryorry |
1. "Now you are saying that it's not fair that Rubiales appears to be paying a price for the actions of other men who had abused women in the past. That makes no sense at all."
I said no such thing.
You posted
"Swansea's comment "Against the backdrop of women being abused, sexualised, stalked and whatnot by weird, pushy or aggressive blokes, it’s a whole different thing"
suggests to me that Rubiales is paying a price for what other men have done to women before this event. I think that's awful.
Do you think that's fair or should I ask Swansea for your answer?"
I replied "No I don't think that's fair - thankfully the 21st century is grdually becoming more enlightened, & what Rubiales did was manifestly recognised by the vast majority as unacceptable & wrong, so he's quite rightly been punished for that, despite a few men still choosing to not listen to how women feel."
I thought it was clear that I was saying I thought *your* comment was not fair. I was *not* saying that I thought Rubiales was in any way paying for centurie of history.
2. Swanners is more eloquent than me & put it better than I could at a point in the afternoon when I was short of time. I totally agree/d with him in particular when he said
"This is probably the main point. Viewed from a male perspective, it wasn’t a massive issue. Most blokes wouldn’t be particularly bothered if the roles were reversed. I expect some would have been delighted!
Against the backdrop of women being abused, sexualised, stalked and whatnot by weird, pushy or aggressive blokes, it’s a whole different thing."
////////////////////
Generally, this forum has come on light years in terms of sexism, racism, homophobia etc. in the past 25 years - credit to Admins & the majority of users for that; clearly, however, it still has some way to go.
I can assure you that having some older man in a position of power suddenly slobber you, uninvited, full mouth on mouth in front of millions of people live on TV would be nauseating, embarrassing & humiliating. Perhaps you and a couple of others on this thread, if you don't have the imagination to comprehend that, could at least listen to and learn from women who've experienced it. |
Okay, a clear misunderstanding. Thanks for explaining that.
Can we go back now to my original question, because irrespective of Swansea's eloquence, his comment does not explain why you downvoted my original question to Mullet?
EDIT: AGAIN, I stress that Rubiales' disgusting, full-mouth slobbering was wrong and I never once implied that it wasn't. And I downvoted your comment because of your obvious and distasteful suggestion that I don't comprehend that. [Post edited 20 Feb 19:33]
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| £10k fine for this on 19:45 - Feb 20 with 1178 views | Cafe_Newman |
| £10k fine for this on 19:24 - Feb 20 by Swansea_Blue |
My point was on how people are responding to this, rather than on how Rubiales has been treated which is the different angle of your question. I don’t know whether that helps. I was a bit abrupt reading that back, but didn’t mean to be, apologies.
I suspect (but obviously don’t know) that charges wouldn’t have been brought if it had been the other way round. |
Thank you.
I also agree that charges probably wouldn't have been brought against Hermoso if it had been the other way round.
I posed the question only because I thought it was an interesting addition to the thread as there are a lot of factors at play here which I thought might make an interesting debate. They are:
Rubiales is in a position of power and also older than Hermoso - are these aggravating factors in this clear example of abuse?
If Rubiales was younger than Hermoso, would his actions be viewed in the same way?
Hermoso is a gay woman, Rubiales is a straight man. Is that an aggravating factor?
In these modern times of greater equality, is it not perfectly reasonable to at least ask the question that if the roles were reversed, should the punishment not be the same? | | | |
| £10k fine for this on 21:35 - Feb 20 with 1099 views | Ryorry |
| £10k fine for this on 19:27 - Feb 20 by Cafe_Newman |
Okay, a clear misunderstanding. Thanks for explaining that.
Can we go back now to my original question, because irrespective of Swansea's eloquence, his comment does not explain why you downvoted my original question to Mullet?
EDIT: AGAIN, I stress that Rubiales' disgusting, full-mouth slobbering was wrong and I never once implied that it wasn't. And I downvoted your comment because of your obvious and distasteful suggestion that I don't comprehend that. [Post edited 20 Feb 19:33]
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I downvoted your comment because, as Swansea said, you viewed it “from a male perspective”; and showed no preparedness to even consider it from a female point of view.
I admit to getting wound up by this because I’ve had seven decades now of experiencing this from some men, and I’m absolutely sick of it.
Many thanks to the guys on here who do understand, even more so if they’ve gone out of their way to listen and become better informed. | |
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| £10k fine for this on 22:06 - Feb 20 with 1045 views | Cafe_Newman |
| £10k fine for this on 21:35 - Feb 20 by Ryorry |
I downvoted your comment because, as Swansea said, you viewed it “from a male perspective”; and showed no preparedness to even consider it from a female point of view.
I admit to getting wound up by this because I’ve had seven decades now of experiencing this from some men, and I’m absolutely sick of it.
Many thanks to the guys on here who do understand, even more so if they’ve gone out of their way to listen and become better informed. |
Swansea's comment, as far as I can tell, was NOT about me or my question. Swansea can correct me if I'm wrong.
My question, "Would you consider it a lenient punishment if Hermoso had kissed Rubiales without consent and he had taken her to court?"can only be viewed as a neutral question.
I am all about equality between men and women and my posting history on this site, let alone this very thread, supports that. Furthermore, I take issue with the fact that you have on numerous occasions in this thread implied that my views about women are dated at best.
Yes, you do appear to be wound up over this issue. I genuinely sympathise with your 7 decades worth of "experience" in this area, but in this instance it has shaped your opinions to such a degree that you have seen sexism or inequality in a totally neutral comment of mine. [Post edited 20 Feb 22:07]
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| £10k fine for this on 23:26 - Feb 20 with 971 views | Ryorry |
| £10k fine for this on 22:06 - Feb 20 by Cafe_Newman |
Swansea's comment, as far as I can tell, was NOT about me or my question. Swansea can correct me if I'm wrong.
My question, "Would you consider it a lenient punishment if Hermoso had kissed Rubiales without consent and he had taken her to court?"can only be viewed as a neutral question.
I am all about equality between men and women and my posting history on this site, let alone this very thread, supports that. Furthermore, I take issue with the fact that you have on numerous occasions in this thread implied that my views about women are dated at best.
Yes, you do appear to be wound up over this issue. I genuinely sympathise with your 7 decades worth of "experience" in this area, but in this instance it has shaped your opinions to such a degree that you have seen sexism or inequality in a totally neutral comment of mine. [Post edited 20 Feb 22:07]
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"My question, "Would you consider it a lenient punishment if Hermoso had kissed Rubiales without consent and he had taken her to court?"can only be viewed as a neutral question."
Your calling it a "neutral question" just reveals your ignorance again I'm afraid - because your doing so ignores all the context & lived experience that myself & a few others have previously referred to. You can't 'both sides' some things. I don't think you'd tell a black person protesting against racism that "all lives matter", would you? [Post edited 20 Feb 23:30]
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| £10k fine for this on 00:39 - Feb 21 with 925 views | Clapham_Junction |
| £10k fine for this on 15:56 - Feb 20 by Ryorry |
There speaks a man who understands nothing about what women have gone through over centuries - a good example of why she was right to speak out & take her legitimate grievance through the judicial system. |
Absolute shame on those who downvoted the sole female voice on this thread. Disgusting. |  | | |
| £10k fine for this on 07:27 - Feb 21 with 784 views | Cafe_Newman |
| £10k fine for this on 23:26 - Feb 20 by Ryorry |
"My question, "Would you consider it a lenient punishment if Hermoso had kissed Rubiales without consent and he had taken her to court?"can only be viewed as a neutral question."
Your calling it a "neutral question" just reveals your ignorance again I'm afraid - because your doing so ignores all the context & lived experience that myself & a few others have previously referred to. You can't 'both sides' some things. I don't think you'd tell a black person protesting against racism that "all lives matter", would you? [Post edited 20 Feb 23:30]
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I asked a question, I didn't give an opinion. You can think all you like that my question was opinion-loaded, but it wasn't.
Think what sort of world you are promoting where people feel they can't ask questions for fear of wrongly being branded sexist, racist, dissenting or whatever.
It's not the sort of world I want to live in because it leads to authoritarianism - I would have thought your 70 years of life would have taught you that. | | | |
| £10k fine for this on 07:30 - Feb 21 with 777 views | Cafe_Newman |
| £10k fine for this on 00:39 - Feb 21 by Clapham_Junction |
Absolute shame on those who downvoted the sole female voice on this thread. Disgusting. |
That is very dangerous thinking. | | | |
| £10k fine for this on 09:12 - Feb 21 with 703 views | rickw |
It seems a wierd set-up in Spain, it seems like the football authorities have no power to punish players. The same happens with racism issues they have to hope the courts press charges otherwise nothing happens. |  |
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| £10k fine for this on 10:04 - Feb 21 with 673 views | Ryorry |
| £10k fine for this on 07:30 - Feb 21 by Cafe_Newman |
That is very dangerous thinking. |
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