| Migrant "crime crisis" 15:19 - Mar 11 with 14732 views | NeedhamChris |
Trying to focus on the data itself rather than the narrative - but as a pretty left-wing person in general I do find the data itself to be rather concerning.
Any data buffs around who can offer some reassurance that this is misguided somehow? Otherwise - feels like there's a need for a more open and honest conversation.
EDIT: would have been helpful to share the study (disclaimer: the narrative is biased and anti-immigration - but the data mentioned is what I'm more interested in)
https://www.migrationcentral.co.uk/p/over-100000-foreign-national-convictions [Post edited 11 Mar 15:26]
|  |
| |  |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 08:52 - Mar 12 with 1860 views | Herbivore |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 08:44 - Mar 12 by Swansea_Blue |
Having worked with a high proportion of immigrants in universities and before that worked widely overseas, it annoys the hell out of me that we let chancers like Farage and these supposed ‘think tanks’ dictate the conversation. I’ve always found immigrants to be people just like us. Some are good, some a pain in the arse, some funny, some miserable, some charitable some evil. Nationality doesn’t determine someone’s character. |
Quite. There's also a reason that those who have been more exposed to immigration tend to have more positive views about it, while those who have less exposure to it are often the ones most concerned about it. I know Farage is deathly afraid of having Romanian neighbours but I doubt that's ever going to be a likely scenario for him. The road I live on is pretty diverse and I'm here for it. |  |
| |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 09:07 - Mar 12 with 1809 views | blueasfook |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 07:38 - Mar 12 by Herbivore |
You might want to look into the issue of Albanians being trafficked into the UK by criminal gangs and forced to then pay them back for passage by being part of criminal enterprises. There was a documentary (on the BBC I think) a while ago about it. British people can also be vulnerable to exploitation but they are far less likely to be trafficked into criminal enterprises in the same way.
I hope you don't interpret this suggestion as bullying, I mean it's not like I'm following someone around the forum having pops at them out of nowhere while their dad is dying. |
That's a bit of a low blow Herbers. I think most if not all have offered their sympathies to Dollers, and to be honest from what I saw Dollers was just a much a participant in said row. In fact, Hambo did ask BOTH to leave it. |  |
| |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 09:09 - Mar 12 with 1770 views | lowhouseblue |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 08:44 - Mar 12 by Swansea_Blue |
Having worked with a high proportion of immigrants in universities and before that worked widely overseas, it annoys the hell out of me that we let chancers like Farage and these supposed ‘think tanks’ dictate the conversation. I’ve always found immigrants to be people just like us. Some are good, some a pain in the arse, some funny, some miserable, some charitable some evil. Nationality doesn’t determine someone’s character. |
it's not, and never should be, a debate about individuals. it's a debate about an absolutely key public policy decision which has potentially society changing consequences. when have people in the uk ever supported or voted for a policy of uncontrolled mass migration? but that is what we have had with net migration of 3 million in 4 years. i keep posting that number because historically it is completely unprecedented, and in a country with a huge housing crisis and all public infrastructure stretched to breaking point it is a mind bogglingly astonishing number. but the response of a very vocal minority on here is always to run distraction. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 09:11 - Mar 12 with 1788 views | PassionNotAnger |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 09:07 - Mar 12 by blueasfook |
That's a bit of a low blow Herbers. I think most if not all have offered their sympathies to Dollers, and to be honest from what I saw Dollers was just a much a participant in said row. In fact, Hambo did ask BOTH to leave it. |
He's not talking about the time where Glassers left but current events where a contributor on this thread keeps on following around Dollers and digging.
Still, not like you to get the the wrong end of the stick and jump into a thread where you have otherwise offered absolutely nothing (and still not commenting on the topic) to try and defend on of your mates.
Keep on trolling! | | | |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 09:17 - Mar 12 with 1733 views | blueasfook |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 09:11 - Mar 12 by PassionNotAnger |
He's not talking about the time where Glassers left but current events where a contributor on this thread keeps on following around Dollers and digging.
Still, not like you to get the the wrong end of the stick and jump into a thread where you have otherwise offered absolutely nothing (and still not commenting on the topic) to try and defend on of your mates.
Keep on trolling! |
I know exactly the threads he is talking about thanks. Thanks for your pointless input. | |
| |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 09:21 - Mar 12 with 1702 views | PassionNotAnger |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 09:17 - Mar 12 by blueasfook |
I know exactly the threads he is talking about thanks. Thanks for your pointless input. |
Yeah of course you do!
No need to run around trying to stick up for Glasgow anymore though x | | | |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 09:24 - Mar 12 with 1681 views | blueasfook |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 09:21 - Mar 12 by PassionNotAnger |
Yeah of course you do!
No need to run around trying to stick up for Glasgow anymore though x |
Who even mentioned GB? It seems it's you who has the obsession with him. I'll pass on that you're thinking of him. x | |
| |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 09:36 - Mar 12 with 1601 views | Herbivore |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 09:07 - Mar 12 by blueasfook |
That's a bit of a low blow Herbers. I think most if not all have offered their sympathies to Dollers, and to be honest from what I saw Dollers was just a much a participant in said row. In fact, Hambo did ask BOTH to leave it. |
Not really a low blow, they've not even denied my description of their behaviour. I think it was reasonable to call out said behaviour when they were pontificating about the conduct of other posters, who hadn't done anything remotely as bad as their behaviour. | |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 09:41 - Mar 12 with 1523 views | lowhouseblue |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 22:17 - Mar 11 by lowhouseblue |
but in terms of actual evidence you can't ignore the fact that immigration is now at an utterly unprecedented level. it is happening at a time when we have a housing crisis. it's impossible to pretend that an additional 3 million people in 4 years doesn't contribute to that. that's the sort of experience that shapes a lot of public opinion on this.
this is an interesting website - % of social housing tenants born outside of the uk by locality. zoom into areas where more than 2/3rds of social housing tenants were born outside of the uk and understand why lots of the public object to what is happening.
https://migrationfacts.com/ |
i posted this link having checked that the site was using legitimate ons data. what i hadn't realised was that if you click on the ons link at the bottom right it takes you to the original data. i also hadn't realised that it is 2021 data - so it actually pre-dates all that has happened since then. again for those who don't understand why it is such a big issue for so many voters - and who play the line that it's only those rural tories who complain - look at all the localities where two thirds of social housing is occupied by people born outside the uk. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 09:47 - Mar 12 with 1495 views | NeedhamChris |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 09:36 - Mar 12 by Herbivore |
Not really a low blow, they've not even denied my description of their behaviour. I think it was reasonable to call out said behaviour when they were pontificating about the conduct of other posters, who hadn't done anything remotely as bad as their behaviour. |
You know what you're doing - but how low you go is up to you.
I can't defend myself without a view point that could also be taken as criticising Dollers - and I don't think that's respectful either given his sitation. You won't find me having a pop at him on any thread he's not actually involved in - so you can stay in the gutter on your own on this one.
There's no benefit to anyone to keep tugging on this thread in this exchange - so maybe let's show a bit of respect. | |
| |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 10:08 - Mar 12 with 1403 views | DJR |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 22:42 - Mar 11 by lowhouseblue |
but the people who travel are not going to be representative of their home population. they are likely to be disproportionately male, single and young - that's the demographic with the highest propensity to commit crime. also once here they are likely to lack the social, family and other networks which at home act to promote respect for the law. also since brexit migrants to the uk are much more likely yo be unskilled, without qualifications, and not economically active. it's not about comparing different countries to see which has a 'culture of criminality' - it's more about the demographics of the groups who are arriving. |
You've mentioned before that post-Brexit migrants are likely to be unskilled, without qualifications but I haven't responded before.
In my view, it would be counter-intuitive for a system (free movement) with no limitations on the skills/role to lead to higher skilled workers than the current system of visas (with designated categories and minimum income requirements).
Putting it another way, a Pole could before Brexit come to the UK to work in McDonalds or as a waiter in restaurant, but I imagine that is impossible now.
This 2023 article from the FT appears to bear this out.
https://www.ft.com/content/27e77f3b-b50d-47f9-b5b2-278019f8e0f6
It is paywalled but below is the headline and an extract.
Britain after Brexit: The surprising surge in skilled migrants
Together, the numbers overturn the assumption that post-Brexit Britain would have lower levels of immigration overall. Instead, a system of free movement for Europeans and hurdles to migration for most others has been replaced by one in which skilled workers globally can gain entry with slightly lower barriers than before, but at a higher cost. Excluded from the system are lower-paid jobs, a big shock for sectors such as logistics and manufacturing that had previously hired freely from the EU, and are now struggling most with hiring. |  | | |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 10:11 - Mar 12 with 1377 views | PassionNotAnger |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 09:24 - Mar 12 by blueasfook |
Who even mentioned GB? It seems it's you who has the obsession with him. I'll pass on that you're thinking of him. x |
Well if you weren't referring to GB when you posted this:
"That's a bit of a low blow Herbers. I think most if not all have offered their sympathies to Dollers, and to be honest from what I saw Dollers was just a much a participant in said row. In fact, Hambo did ask BOTH to leave it."
Who were you referring to? And which thread did Phil ask them both to leave it? | | | |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 10:20 - Mar 12 with 1337 views | Herbivore |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 09:47 - Mar 12 by NeedhamChris |
You know what you're doing - but how low you go is up to you.
I can't defend myself without a view point that could also be taken as criticising Dollers - and I don't think that's respectful either given his sitation. You won't find me having a pop at him on any thread he's not actually involved in - so you can stay in the gutter on your own on this one.
There's no benefit to anyone to keep tugging on this thread in this exchange - so maybe let's show a bit of respect. |
I'm all out of irony meters at this point. You do you, hun. | |
| |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 10:20 - Mar 12 with 1336 views | NeedhamChris |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 10:11 - Mar 12 by PassionNotAnger |
Well if you weren't referring to GB when you posted this:
"That's a bit of a low blow Herbers. I think most if not all have offered their sympathies to Dollers, and to be honest from what I saw Dollers was just a much a participant in said row. In fact, Hambo did ask BOTH to leave it."
Who were you referring to? And which thread did Phil ask them both to leave it? |
He was referring to me and Dollers, not GB and Dollers. So you're way off.
In the spirit of this thread and the answers I've been given - I think you need to go off and do your own research if you're interested. Not sure why you need to rubberneck on previous disagreements. | |
| |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 10:22 - Mar 12 with 1309 views | Herbivore |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 09:24 - Mar 12 by blueasfook |
Who even mentioned GB? It seems it's you who has the obsession with him. I'll pass on that you're thinking of him. x |
Give Glassers my best, I hope he's doing well. | |
| |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 10:28 - Mar 12 with 1254 views | DJR |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 09:41 - Mar 12 by lowhouseblue |
i posted this link having checked that the site was using legitimate ons data. what i hadn't realised was that if you click on the ons link at the bottom right it takes you to the original data. i also hadn't realised that it is 2021 data - so it actually pre-dates all that has happened since then. again for those who don't understand why it is such a big issue for so many voters - and who play the line that it's only those rural tories who complain - look at all the localities where two thirds of social housing is occupied by people born outside the uk. |
That's a slightly curious website because that appears to be the only information on the website and there appears to be no indication as to who is responsible for migrationfacts.com.
As it is I was born outside the UK, and came here in 1960, so would count in these figures if I were in social housing. Indeed, presumably it includes many who have been here for many years if not decades, given I can't imagine that many recent immigrants to the UK would qualify for social housing given the various restrictions placed on them.
Incidentally, the 2021 Census also reveals that 16.8% of the population of England and Wales was born outside the UK, a figure not wholly out of line the 19.2% figure, the larger figure perhaps explained by the fact that some immigrant communities as a whole are not particularly prosperous, although this can change over time as communities become more settled.
Of course, I am more than happy for there to be a rational debate on legal migration, but I am not sure that the various scare tactics employed by those on the right are particularly conducive to this. [Post edited 12 Mar 10:35]
| | | |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 10:31 - Mar 12 with 1237 views | blueasfook |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 10:20 - Mar 12 by NeedhamChris |
He was referring to me and Dollers, not GB and Dollers. So you're way off.
In the spirit of this thread and the answers I've been given - I think you need to go off and do your own research if you're interested. Not sure why you need to rubberneck on previous disagreements. |
He's clearly just jumped in here looking for a fight. Pathetic really. | |
| |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 10:54 - Mar 12 with 1097 views | lowhouseblue |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 10:28 - Mar 12 by DJR |
That's a slightly curious website because that appears to be the only information on the website and there appears to be no indication as to who is responsible for migrationfacts.com.
As it is I was born outside the UK, and came here in 1960, so would count in these figures if I were in social housing. Indeed, presumably it includes many who have been here for many years if not decades, given I can't imagine that many recent immigrants to the UK would qualify for social housing given the various restrictions placed on them.
Incidentally, the 2021 Census also reveals that 16.8% of the population of England and Wales was born outside the UK, a figure not wholly out of line the 19.2% figure, the larger figure perhaps explained by the fact that some immigrant communities as a whole are not particularly prosperous, although this can change over time as communities become more settled.
Of course, I am more than happy for there to be a rational debate on legal migration, but I am not sure that the various scare tactics employed by those on the right are particularly conducive to this. [Post edited 12 Mar 10:35]
|
to be clear, what the website is showing, using the same ons data as you have now quoted, is the impact of migration on housing in particular localities. if you were born in a locality where 70% + of social housing had a tenant born outside the uk in 2021 then your own chances of accessing social housing must now be pretty low. even more so 4 years later i would guess. in terms of understanding why most of the uk public oppose the current unannounced policy of mass immigration that is a significant factor. which is the point i was trying to make. no one denies that we have a housing crisis in the uk, but various posters seem to believe that you can have net migration of 3 million in 4 years and the housing crisis is unaffected by that. it's hard to have a rational debate against that level of outright denial. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 11:32 - Mar 12 with 1017 views | DJR |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 10:54 - Mar 12 by lowhouseblue |
to be clear, what the website is showing, using the same ons data as you have now quoted, is the impact of migration on housing in particular localities. if you were born in a locality where 70% + of social housing had a tenant born outside the uk in 2021 then your own chances of accessing social housing must now be pretty low. even more so 4 years later i would guess. in terms of understanding why most of the uk public oppose the current unannounced policy of mass immigration that is a significant factor. which is the point i was trying to make. no one denies that we have a housing crisis in the uk, but various posters seem to believe that you can have net migration of 3 million in 4 years and the housing crisis is unaffected by that. it's hard to have a rational debate against that level of outright denial. |
I wasn't denying anything, although it is the case that steps have already been taken which are impacting on immigration, but I still think the focus on criminality and the small boats whips up emotions which are not conducive to rational debate.
As it is, I think a major factor (if as appears to be the case Johnson in effect wanted immigration to rise because he had no objection to more skilled immigration) is the failure to plan for population increases.
https://www.itv.com/news/update/2016-06-19/johnson-i-am-pro-immigration-and-supp
Don't forget that it was the MacMillan government which built vast amounts of council housing, and in those days new towns were another way of solving the housing crisis.
https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/society/housing/64146/could-harold-macmillan- [Post edited 12 Mar 11:36]
| | | |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 11:34 - Mar 12 with 1006 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 10:54 - Mar 12 by lowhouseblue |
to be clear, what the website is showing, using the same ons data as you have now quoted, is the impact of migration on housing in particular localities. if you were born in a locality where 70% + of social housing had a tenant born outside the uk in 2021 then your own chances of accessing social housing must now be pretty low. even more so 4 years later i would guess. in terms of understanding why most of the uk public oppose the current unannounced policy of mass immigration that is a significant factor. which is the point i was trying to make. no one denies that we have a housing crisis in the uk, but various posters seem to believe that you can have net migration of 3 million in 4 years and the housing crisis is unaffected by that. it's hard to have a rational debate against that level of outright denial. |
The website is simply displaying data to show that their preconceived view is justified.
They have lumped together the figures over an extended period. What May have been of more interest/ value would be to show each year’s figures separately so any trend could be identified.
Presumably to have done so would have not have supporters the narrative. |  |
| |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 14:18 - Mar 12 with 829 views | blueasfook |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 09:11 - Mar 12 by PassionNotAnger |
He's not talking about the time where Glassers left but current events where a contributor on this thread keeps on following around Dollers and digging.
Still, not like you to get the the wrong end of the stick and jump into a thread where you have otherwise offered absolutely nothing (and still not commenting on the topic) to try and defend on of your mates.
Keep on trolling! |
Oof - abuse reported?
It's OK, it was aimed at me so Phil won't do anything about it. I doubt you'll even get a PM. | |
| |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 14:35 - Mar 12 with 773 views | positivity |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 14:18 - Mar 12 by blueasfook |
Oof - abuse reported?
It's OK, it was aimed at me so Phil won't do anything about it. I doubt you'll even get a PM. |
calling a self-identifying troll, a troll is hardly abuse, some people are so sensitive! | |
| |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 14:40 - Mar 12 with 746 views | blueasfook |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 14:35 - Mar 12 by positivity |
calling a self-identifying troll, a troll is hardly abuse, some people are so sensitive! |
I think you can go on my div list. Getting fed up of you. Cheerio. | |
| |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 14:42 - Mar 12 with 721 views | positivity |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 14:40 - Mar 12 by blueasfook |
I think you can go on my div list. Getting fed up of you. Cheerio. |
"don't take everything so seriously"!!
expect you'll report this one as abuse too! | |
| |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 14:46 - Mar 12 with 696 views | NeedhamChris |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 14:18 - Mar 12 by blueasfook |
Oof - abuse reported?
It's OK, it was aimed at me so Phil won't do anything about it. I doubt you'll even get a PM. |
You would hope that it is noted how this thread has been derailed, and who by. | |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
