| Migrant "crime crisis" 15:19 - Mar 11 with 14728 views | NeedhamChris |
Trying to focus on the data itself rather than the narrative - but as a pretty left-wing person in general I do find the data itself to be rather concerning.
Any data buffs around who can offer some reassurance that this is misguided somehow? Otherwise - feels like there's a need for a more open and honest conversation.
EDIT: would have been helpful to share the study (disclaimer: the narrative is biased and anti-immigration - but the data mentioned is what I'm more interested in)
https://www.migrationcentral.co.uk/p/over-100000-foreign-national-convictions [Post edited 11 Mar 15:26]
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| Migrant "crime crisis" on 14:50 - Mar 12 with 2280 views | positivity |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 14:46 - Mar 12 by NeedhamChris |
You would hope that it is noted how this thread has been derailed, and who by. |
true, it was derailed by the poster who put up blatant right-wing propaganda and a "just asking questions" accompanying post.
as usual fookers and bloots tried to stir things up and one of their mates reported an anodyne comment as abuse. standard twtd! | |
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| Migrant "crime crisis" on 14:53 - Mar 12 with 2252 views | J2BLUE |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 14:50 - Mar 12 by positivity |
true, it was derailed by the poster who put up blatant right-wing propaganda and a "just asking questions" accompanying post.
as usual fookers and bloots tried to stir things up and one of their mates reported an anodyne comment as abuse. standard twtd! |
That's certainly one interpretation. |  |
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| Migrant "crime crisis" on 14:58 - Mar 12 with 2216 views | positivity |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 14:53 - Mar 12 by J2BLUE |
That's certainly one interpretation. |
yes, am sure others will attempt to spin it as a perfectly valid unbiased source presented in a rigorous scientifically-balanced manner! | |
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| Migrant "crime crisis" on 15:07 - Mar 12 with 2171 views | J2BLUE |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 14:58 - Mar 12 by positivity |
yes, am sure others will attempt to spin it as a perfectly valid unbiased source presented in a rigorous scientifically-balanced manner! |
Has anyone done that? | |
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| Migrant "crime crisis" on 15:10 - Mar 12 with 2140 views | positivity |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 15:07 - Mar 12 by J2BLUE |
Has anyone done that? |
give them a chance they've only had 20 minutes!
hopefully by you highlighting it, then they won't be so daft... | |
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| Migrant "crime crisis" on 15:12 - Mar 12 with 2118 views | NeedhamChris |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 14:58 - Mar 12 by positivity |
yes, am sure others will attempt to spin it as a perfectly valid unbiased source presented in a rigorous scientifically-balanced manner! |
I literally put a disclaimer in the OP about the narrative being biased - others have been more thorough in their review of the source (which I think is fair enough), but no-one is has suggested taking it as gospel.
You are rather highlighting the point that I was making though - despite some posters here saying that discussions around immigration are welcome and not shut down at all - you're now implying I'm deliberately trying to spread right-wing propaganda.
Noted though that you find asking questions such a threatening thing to do - I thought we supported free speech on the left. | |
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| Migrant "crime crisis" on 15:18 - Mar 12 with 2082 views | positivity |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 15:12 - Mar 12 by NeedhamChris |
I literally put a disclaimer in the OP about the narrative being biased - others have been more thorough in their review of the source (which I think is fair enough), but no-one is has suggested taking it as gospel.
You are rather highlighting the point that I was making though - despite some posters here saying that discussions around immigration are welcome and not shut down at all - you're now implying I'm deliberately trying to spread right-wing propaganda.
Noted though that you find asking questions such a threatening thing to do - I thought we supported free speech on the left. |
by highlighting this nonsense you are (hopefully unwittingly) following the steve bannon playbook of "flooding the zone with s**t"
they keep on putting more and more lies, plays on truths and half-truths into the ether to distract from bigger lies, and to take attention away from truthful, balanced and scientific viewpoints. devalue everything to the same status of "fake news" [Post edited 12 Mar 15:19]
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| Migrant "crime crisis" on 15:29 - Mar 12 with 1985 views | lowhouseblue |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 11:34 - Mar 12 by Pinewoodblue |
The website is simply displaying data to show that their preconceived view is justified.
They have lumped together the figures over an extended period. What May have been of more interest/ value would be to show each year’s figures separately so any trend could be identified.
Presumably to have done so would have not have supporters the narrative. |
"They have lumped together the figures over an extended period. What May have been of more interest/ value would be to show each year’s figures separately so any trend could be identified."
what?? the website is using data from the 2021 census. the link in the bottom right hand corner takes you directly to the ons census data. are you looking at a different website/ |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Migrant "crime crisis" on 15:50 - Mar 12 with 1939 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 15:29 - Mar 12 by lowhouseblue |
"They have lumped together the figures over an extended period. What May have been of more interest/ value would be to show each year’s figures separately so any trend could be identified."
what?? the website is using data from the 2021 census. the link in the bottom right hand corner takes you directly to the ons census data. are you looking at a different website/ |
You need to go to Specsavers. The article begins............Between 2021 and 2023 there were 104,000 foreign national convictions in England and Wales - including tens of thousands of sexual offences, violent crime, and drug offences. |  |
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| Migrant "crime crisis" on 15:55 - Mar 12 with 1912 views | NeedhamChris |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 15:50 - Mar 12 by Pinewoodblue |
You need to go to Specsavers. The article begins............Between 2021 and 2023 there were 104,000 foreign national convictions in England and Wales - including tens of thousands of sexual offences, violent crime, and drug offences. |
No he doesn't - you haven't read the conversation you're replying to.
https://migrationfacts.com/ is the website Low house is talking about. | |
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| Migrant "crime crisis" on 16:20 - Mar 12 with 1826 views | lowhouseblue |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 15:50 - Mar 12 by Pinewoodblue |
You need to go to Specsavers. The article begins............Between 2021 and 2023 there were 104,000 foreign national convictions in England and Wales - including tens of thousands of sexual offences, violent crime, and drug offences. |
so why did you reply to me when i was in discussion with djr about a different website?? you need to follow the discussion before jumping in with both feet. reading the post you were replying to - which was about housing - would also provide a clue. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Migrant "crime crisis" on 17:47 - Mar 12 with 1736 views | Trequartista |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 19:53 - Mar 11 by StokieBlue |
That article is just citing the conclusions of the article on the opening post.
It literally says it in the article. It's not an independent analysis or any form of verification.
SB [Post edited 11 Mar 19:59]
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I was replying to someone who couldn't see it was from an foi request. The foi request reference is in the express article and not in the op. |  |
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| Migrant "crime crisis" on 19:41 - Mar 12 with 1632 views | CoachRob |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 10:28 - Mar 12 by DJR |
That's a slightly curious website because that appears to be the only information on the website and there appears to be no indication as to who is responsible for migrationfacts.com.
As it is I was born outside the UK, and came here in 1960, so would count in these figures if I were in social housing. Indeed, presumably it includes many who have been here for many years if not decades, given I can't imagine that many recent immigrants to the UK would qualify for social housing given the various restrictions placed on them.
Incidentally, the 2021 Census also reveals that 16.8% of the population of England and Wales was born outside the UK, a figure not wholly out of line the 19.2% figure, the larger figure perhaps explained by the fact that some immigrant communities as a whole are not particularly prosperous, although this can change over time as communities become more settled.
Of course, I am more than happy for there to be a rational debate on legal migration, but I am not sure that the various scare tactics employed by those on the right are particularly conducive to this. [Post edited 12 Mar 10:35]
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The coat of arms is similar to Oriel College, Oxford but none the wiser on who has authored this map. I agree it is curious as I volunteer at a food bank and people often talk about empty social housing units. One chap from Mauritius (been here decades) said his sheltered housing block had twelve units out of seventy empty (some have been empty for over a year).
I completely agree with you regarding the tactics around these debates. At the Global Systems Institute we had a public discussion around climate change and invited people from across the political spectrum (JSO/XR to Reform/Tory/Labour). These debates usually start with people coming out swinging, however, the use of interdisciplinary skilled facilitators can make a real difference to how people engage. TWTD is definitely not the place for these types of debates as all the acrimonious stuff takes over. The actual evidence provided is thin to say the least. |  | | |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 20:28 - Mar 12 with 1562 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 10:08 - Mar 12 by DJR |
You've mentioned before that post-Brexit migrants are likely to be unskilled, without qualifications but I haven't responded before.
In my view, it would be counter-intuitive for a system (free movement) with no limitations on the skills/role to lead to higher skilled workers than the current system of visas (with designated categories and minimum income requirements).
Putting it another way, a Pole could before Brexit come to the UK to work in McDonalds or as a waiter in restaurant, but I imagine that is impossible now.
This 2023 article from the FT appears to bear this out.
https://www.ft.com/content/27e77f3b-b50d-47f9-b5b2-278019f8e0f6
It is paywalled but below is the headline and an extract.
Britain after Brexit: The surprising surge in skilled migrants
Together, the numbers overturn the assumption that post-Brexit Britain would have lower levels of immigration overall. Instead, a system of free movement for Europeans and hurdles to migration for most others has been replaced by one in which skilled workers globally can gain entry with slightly lower barriers than before, but at a higher cost. Excluded from the system are lower-paid jobs, a big shock for sectors such as logistics and manufacturing that had previously hired freely from the EU, and are now struggling most with hiring. |
I suspect you’re wasting your time. The person you’re replying to won’t even acknowledge that a large %age of immigrants are people we want, not just through the current working visa arrangements that you mention but also because there’s been an explosion in overseas student arrivals*, because we compete in a global education market place (and that’s a good thing, in case anyone’s in doubt!). Overseas student fees have helped support our universities during a period of constrained domestic funding and helped elevate the global status of UK universities.
*that’s tailing off now due to visa changes relating to dependants that kicked in in 2024, causing huge financial problems across the sector and leading to mass job losses and experienced people leaving (me included). [Post edited 12 Mar 20:43]
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| Migrant "crime crisis" on 20:57 - Mar 12 with 1492 views | lowhouseblue |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 20:28 - Mar 12 by Swansea_Blue |
I suspect you’re wasting your time. The person you’re replying to won’t even acknowledge that a large %age of immigrants are people we want, not just through the current working visa arrangements that you mention but also because there’s been an explosion in overseas student arrivals*, because we compete in a global education market place (and that’s a good thing, in case anyone’s in doubt!). Overseas student fees have helped support our universities during a period of constrained domestic funding and helped elevate the global status of UK universities.
*that’s tailing off now due to visa changes relating to dependants that kicked in in 2024, causing huge financial problems across the sector and leading to mass job losses and experienced people leaving (me included). [Post edited 12 Mar 20:43]
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the ons quarterly reports show that a minority of migrants have come to work. of those who have come to work the number going into the nhs or the care sector is even smaller. if migration only involved skilled workers and no one else the numbers would be small and there would be little dispute that it was an entirely positive thing.
as i have explained many times, and you don't seem able to grasp, international students do not impact on NET migration. that is because the number arriving to start a course is cancelled out by the number completing a course. the two net out. NET migration of 3million over 4 years is not explained by international students. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Migrant "crime crisis" on 21:30 - Mar 12 with 1412 views | NeedhamChris |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 20:28 - Mar 12 by Swansea_Blue |
I suspect you’re wasting your time. The person you’re replying to won’t even acknowledge that a large %age of immigrants are people we want, not just through the current working visa arrangements that you mention but also because there’s been an explosion in overseas student arrivals*, because we compete in a global education market place (and that’s a good thing, in case anyone’s in doubt!). Overseas student fees have helped support our universities during a period of constrained domestic funding and helped elevate the global status of UK universities.
*that’s tailing off now due to visa changes relating to dependants that kicked in in 2024, causing huge financial problems across the sector and leading to mass job losses and experienced people leaving (me included). [Post edited 12 Mar 20:43]
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That's a little disingenuous - I don't think anyone has said that all immigrants are not welcomed.
Your point on international students is fair but also a bit simplistic. It assumes that . As you will well know - there are growing issues with a) quality of international students caused by b) a race to the bottom in terms of university entry requirements amongst other things, c) growing number of almost immediate applications for asylum on arrival via a student visa - and much more besides. High quality international students are a great thing - students who are applying for any old generic business course so they can gain entry to the UK - not the same thing.
The dependants change was a sledgehammer to crack a nut though - personally would have just insisted on IELTS and reduced the scope for universities to make exceptions. | |
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| Migrant "crime crisis" on 21:33 - Mar 12 with 1391 views | J2BLUE |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 21:30 - Mar 12 by NeedhamChris |
That's a little disingenuous - I don't think anyone has said that all immigrants are not welcomed.
Your point on international students is fair but also a bit simplistic. It assumes that . As you will well know - there are growing issues with a) quality of international students caused by b) a race to the bottom in terms of university entry requirements amongst other things, c) growing number of almost immediate applications for asylum on arrival via a student visa - and much more besides. High quality international students are a great thing - students who are applying for any old generic business course so they can gain entry to the UK - not the same thing.
The dependants change was a sledgehammer to crack a nut though - personally would have just insisted on IELTS and reduced the scope for universities to make exceptions. |
This thread has gone exactly the way most of us could have predicted. | |
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| Migrant "crime crisis" on 21:57 - Mar 12 with 1311 views | DJR |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 20:28 - Mar 12 by Swansea_Blue |
I suspect you’re wasting your time. The person you’re replying to won’t even acknowledge that a large %age of immigrants are people we want, not just through the current working visa arrangements that you mention but also because there’s been an explosion in overseas student arrivals*, because we compete in a global education market place (and that’s a good thing, in case anyone’s in doubt!). Overseas student fees have helped support our universities during a period of constrained domestic funding and helped elevate the global status of UK universities.
*that’s tailing off now due to visa changes relating to dependants that kicked in in 2024, causing huge financial problems across the sector and leading to mass job losses and experienced people leaving (me included). [Post edited 12 Mar 20:43]
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Sorry to hear that. |  | | |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 22:09 - Mar 12 with 1260 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 21:30 - Mar 12 by NeedhamChris |
That's a little disingenuous - I don't think anyone has said that all immigrants are not welcomed.
Your point on international students is fair but also a bit simplistic. It assumes that . As you will well know - there are growing issues with a) quality of international students caused by b) a race to the bottom in terms of university entry requirements amongst other things, c) growing number of almost immediate applications for asylum on arrival via a student visa - and much more besides. High quality international students are a great thing - students who are applying for any old generic business course so they can gain entry to the UK - not the same thing.
The dependants change was a sledgehammer to crack a nut though - personally would have just insisted on IELTS and reduced the scope for universities to make exceptions. |
The thread is based on an article from an organisation whose remit is literally to oppose immigration, so yes this is a thread about immigrants not being welcomed.
Putting that aside, business degrees are one of the UK’s strengths as it happens. We’ve got a few unis who compete at the top table, and beyond that they are in demand across much of the sector. I’ve no problem with us clamping down on abuses of the system of course, but we shouldn’t let that detract from one of the UK’s rare success stories. | |
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| Migrant "crime crisis" on 07:03 - Mar 13 with 990 views | Benters |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 09:24 - Mar 12 by blueasfook |
Who even mentioned GB? It seems it's you who has the obsession with him. I'll pass on that you're thinking of him. x |
GB is a good bloke,and this place isn’t as nice without him.
Please give him my regards. |  |
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| Migrant "crime crisis" on 07:55 - Mar 13 with 914 views | NeedhamChris |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 22:09 - Mar 12 by Swansea_Blue |
The thread is based on an article from an organisation whose remit is literally to oppose immigration, so yes this is a thread about immigrants not being welcomed.
Putting that aside, business degrees are one of the UK’s strengths as it happens. We’ve got a few unis who compete at the top table, and beyond that they are in demand across much of the sector. I’ve no problem with us clamping down on abuses of the system of course, but we shouldn’t let that detract from one of the UK’s rare success stories. |
It shouldn't be beyond our capabilities to take an article that is driven through one narrative, and discuss/analyse it from an alternative perspective.
Your approach of people that wrote this believe x therefore whole thread is also about X is incredibly simplistic. I hope this is more of a reflection of an entrenched personal position on a non-work platform and not reflective of how young people are being taught.
Stokie and others points around the data being questionable I think are much more valid criticisms on reflection. However other data sources such as Lowhouses posts are available that suggest there are issues.
On business degrees, at the top end they are - but it's no coincidence that when it comes to low tariff universities and also the massive rise in dodgy franchise colleges, that the go to degrees are Business Management, MBA, MA international business, etc. [Post edited 13 Mar 7:56]
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| Migrant "crime crisis" on 07:56 - Mar 13 with 905 views | blueasfook |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 07:03 - Mar 13 by Benters |
GB is a good bloke,and this place isn’t as nice without him.
Please give him my regards. |
Will do Benters. I'm sure he's still here with us in spirit. And I dare say he still reads twtd. Old habits die hard! |  |
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| Migrant "crime crisis" on 07:59 - Mar 13 with 894 views | NeedhamChris |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 07:56 - Mar 13 by blueasfook |
Will do Benters. I'm sure he's still here with us in spirit. And I dare say he still reads twtd. Old habits die hard! |
GB is an example (for me anyway) of someone I didn't always share the same political view as but appreciated the ability to have a proper discussion.
Contrasted to people who I do share political views with that are unable to consider alternative views without resorting to rudeness. It's a funny old world.
Look after yourself (and family) GB - hope to see you back soon. | |
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| Migrant "crime crisis" on 08:14 - Mar 13 with 844 views | positivity |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 07:59 - Mar 13 by NeedhamChris |
GB is an example (for me anyway) of someone I didn't always share the same political view as but appreciated the ability to have a proper discussion.
Contrasted to people who I do share political views with that are unable to consider alternative views without resorting to rudeness. It's a funny old world.
Look after yourself (and family) GB - hope to see you back soon. |
don't think it's fair to drag gb into this, when he was one of the biggest critics of farage/trump and their racist chums. he was a scourge of politicians using dog-whistle language to back their racist views
it's fine to critique biased sources, but if they are the only ones you are putting forward, they take all the oxygen of discussion and the narrative is pushed in one direction only.
the constant platforming of farage/ukip way out of proportion to their relevance and popularity (just because he had powerful and rich friends in the media) led to the entrenched anti-immigrant view which is now so prevalent in society. contrast this to the lack of time for green party spokespeople who had more votes,more popular sympathy for their cause and far more scientific rigour to their views. [Post edited 13 Mar 8:40]
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| Migrant "crime crisis" on 09:25 - Mar 13 with 730 views | Benters |
| Migrant "crime crisis" on 07:56 - Mar 13 by blueasfook |
Will do Benters. I'm sure he's still here with us in spirit. And I dare say he still reads twtd. Old habits die hard! |
Indeed dear boy,cheers 🇬🇧 | |
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